Why Ann Coulter is great.

[Tez3]

At the time of the Russian Revolution, there were no countries that had universal suffrage or recognised a persons 'individuality', there were class systems in most countries, the UK and the USA among them. Even in many countries that were considered 'democratic' only certain people were allowed to vote.

Conditions in China under the power of non communists before the revolution there was so appaling, so medieval that the communists in fact could only make things better, it needed something like the communist machine to drag China into the 20th century from what was basically the dark ages. The people despite what non communists think have actually done better under even Chairman Mao than they ever did under the 'capitalists'. You need to understand what conditions were like in China pre revolution to see why Chairman Mao and his cronies were a better option! It says something when the citizens of a country have more rights under someone like Mao than they had before. The Russian peasants weren't in much of a better postition, if they had of been perhaps the communists wouldn't have been able to take over.

The ideas we have today about democracy are relatively new, it's probably only since the end of the last war have we started thinking about everyone having the vote, free elections and the idea of people being individuals.

 

[granfire]

Now you really should stop being a big girl's blouse and admit you have things **** about face, oh and stop treating us as if we are thick as two short planks.

what does the girl blouse thing mean? :lfao:

Anywho...

China: Mao upgraded the peasants from being worth no more than a crock to being ants and gave them the blue suit to go with it. Hard to believe, it was a big step up.

Russia: Lenin upgraded the peasants from being illiterate and dependent on the landowner to being people. As minimal as it looks, it's still a huge step.

One just can't judge history from our current ventage point. It just does not work.
You could not rouse people these days to walk across the continent to 'retake' a fast food joint, much less conquer a country. Though sadly if you have the right galvanization point you can still send them across town to beat on their fellow man...

Yeah, and Germany....that's what happens when you forse a political system on people who don't want it and are not ready for it....It should be a lesson to all those peace bringers of the world: You can't force democracy on the people. Or, if you do, don't complain when they elect officials that are not democratic.


Also, Dearest Bill: In the elections of 1930 that brought Adolf Hitler into power (you knew he hitched his cart to v.Hindenburg, an old revered General under the Kaiser, right) the streets were not safe:
Hitlers SA troops beat mercilessly on the voters for the socialist and commiunist parties. They had at that time a pretty good cace to be a driving force in parlament.
Also, candidates for the 2 left parties were attacked and in some cases assassinated.
So much for your theory that Hitler had red shirts. His Brown Shirts fought street battles with the Red Shirts to intimidate the common man to go to vote, and it worked.

But you knew that, if you would bother to actually read sources instead of the political fiction you have been keeping on your night stand.

 

[Tez3]

Big girl's blouse, ah well, that would be telling lol.it's not a bad insult, just means well he's a big girls blouse, flapping around.

If we judge how countries were to how we are now, there's not a country would have passed muster in terms of democracy. I think sometimes we don't realise how lucky we are even though people moan about governments etc, we are extraordinary lucky to be alive when and where we are.

 

[granfire]

Big girl's blouse, ah well, that would be telling lol.it's not a bad insult, just means well he's a big girls blouse, flapping around.

If we judge how countries were to how we are now, there's not a country would have passed muster in terms of democracy. I think sometimes we don't realise how lucky we are even though people moan about governments etc, we are extraordinary lucky to be alive when and where we are.

Exactly.

The people who made history were a product of their times. I don't think one can follow the path of Marx and them without knowing about the conditions he faced.
We can watch the recreation in the movies, some make a good visual impression, but in the end it's a movie and not the real deal.

Our times are not perfect, but neither are we.

 

[billc]

According to you Granfire, Hitler made the trains run on time as well, and it only took him about 12 million dead. Heck, we could have shipped over blue clothes to the chinese and they wouldn't have had to murder anyone.

 

[Tez3]

According to you Granfire, Hitler made the trains run on time as well, and it only took him about 12 million dead. Heck, we could have shipped over blue clothes to the chinese and they wouldn't have had to murder anyone.

They say G-d loves a trier and dear me, you are trying.

 

[billc]

Yes, Jonah Goldberg talks about the german communists who became national socialists. The saying sometimes was "first brown then red."

 

[Blade96]

I did a major in history and most of my studies focused upon russian history. And of course Marx and engels and the russian nihilist movements of the later half of the 19th century (people who lenin and stalin admired far more like Tkachev and Nechayev and Chernyshevsky his actions were based more upon their ideas than on Marx's) so I know that the 'history' and definitions bill spouts are pretty much bollocks.

 

[Darksoul]

-Best thing I ever did was put a certain someone on IGNORE! ;-)

Andrew

 

[Tez3]

Yes, Jonah Goldberg talks about the german communists who became national socialists. The saying sometimes was "first brown then red."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/nsdap.html

In April, 1920, Hitler advocated that the party should change its name to the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP). Hitler had always been hostile to socialist ideas, especially those that involved racial or sexual equality. However, socialism was a popular political philosophy in Germany after the First World War. This was reflected in the growth in the German Social Democrat Party (SDP), the largest political party in Germany.

When Hitler was released, he formed his own private army called Sturm Abteilung (Storm Section). The SA (also known as stormtroopers or brownshirts) were instructed to disrupt the meetings of political opponents and to protect Hitler from revenge attacks. Captain Ernst Röhm of the Bavarian Army played an important role in recruiting these men, and Hermann Goering, a former air-force pilot, became their leader.
Hitler's stormtroopers were often former members of the Freikorps (right-wing private armies who flourished during the period that followed the First World War) and had considerable experience in using violence against their rivals.
The SA wore grey jackets, brown shirts (khaki shirts originally intended for soldiers in Africa but purchased in bulk from the German Army by the Nazi Party), swastika armbands, ski-caps, knee-breeches, thick woolen socks and combat boots. Accompanied by bands of musicians and carrying swastika flags, they would parade through the streets of Munich. At the end of the march Hitler would make one of his passionate speeches that encouraged his supporters to carry out acts of violence against Jews and his left-wing political opponents.
As this violence was often directed against Socialists and Communists, the local right-wing Bavarian government did not take action against the Nazi Party. However, the national government in Berlin were concerned and passed a "Law for the Protection of the Republic." Hitler's response was to organize a rally attended by 40,000 people. At the meeting Hitler called for the overthrow of the German government and even suggested that its leaders should be executed.



Hitler believed that the Jews were involved with Communists in a joint conspiracy to take over the world. Like Henry Ford, Hitler claimed that 75% of all Communists were Jews. Hitler argued that the combination of Jews and Marxists had already been successful in Russia and now threatened the rest of Europe. He argued that the communist revolution was an act of revenge that attempted to disguise the inferiority of the Jews.

The behaviour of the NSDAP became more violent. On one occasion, 167 Nazis beat up 57 members of the German Communist Party in the Reichstag. They were then physically thrown out of the building.
The stormtroopers also carried out terrible acts of violence against socialists and communists. In one incident in Silesia, a young member of the KPD had his eyes poked out with a billiard cue and was then stabbed to death in front of his mother. Four members of the SA were convicted of the rime. Many people were shocked when Hitler sent a letter of support for the four men and promised to do what he could to get them released.
Incidents such as these worried many Germans, and in the elections that took place in November 1932 the support for the Nazi Party fell. The German Communist Party made substantial gains in the election winning 100 seats. Hitler used this to create a sense of panic by claiming that German was on the verge of a Bolshevik Revolution and only the NSDAP could prevent this happening.
A group of prominent industrialists who feared such a revolution sent a petition to Paul von Hindenburg asking for Hitler to become Chancellor. Hindenberg reluctantly agreed to their request and at the age of forty-three, Hitler became the new Chancellor of Germany.



There are always a number of people who for various reasons change political alliances, if it were threats of violence against them and their families I wouldn't blame them, however a few changing doesn't make it all or that the communists and Nazis were the same thing.

Bill, you are circling around being offensive here when you talk of railways etc. Don't push it too far.

 

[granfire]

According to you Granfire, Hitler made the trains run on time as well, and it only took him about 12 million dead. Heck, we could have shipped over blue clothes to the chinese and they wouldn't have had to murder anyone.

Kid, you got just enough brain cells to rub together to be extremely dangerous in your ignorance and insistence that the sun revolves around the red planet...

Throw away your 3rd hand fairy tales and read some actual historic sources for a change.

And instead of reading somebody else's 365 ways to irritate people who have in essence done nothing to you, you should probably read what the people you lump together without any knowledge are actually about.


And no, I think the Germans had the deal with punctuality down long before Hitler.

 

[Blade96]

granfire i agree with you.

as one of my fb friends said once

que-est-ce que F.?

 

[billc]

China: Mao upgraded the peasants from being worth no more than a crock to being ants and gave them the blue suit to go with it. Hard to believe, it was a big step up.

Russia: Lenin upgraded the peasants from being illiterate and dependent on the landowner to being people. As minimal as it looks, it's still a huge step.

Tez, Granfire is saying 100 million deaths is worth what mao and stalin did. I am pointing out that silly thinking like that is also applied to the socialists in germany, all of which is a stupid way to look at mass murder.

After WW2 America, the country everyone likes to kick around right now, didn't do the things that Mao did or what Stalin did or what hitler did after world war one. America rebuilt its former enemies, Germany, Italy, Japan, and aided the other countries like Greece. The socialists in Russia and China, at the same period, locked down europe, and went on to slaughter millions of chinese. The socialists had east germany, north korea, north vietnam, cambodia the rest of the eastern block, and they were slaughter houses at their worst and prisons at their best. Mao, and the soviets did not have to do what they did. the western capitalist powers brought freedom, the eastern socialist powers brought grief. So you might want to ask granfire to stop comparing the deaths of millions as a price for literacy and being ants, and look at what I was actually trying to do.

 

[Blade96]

Tez, Granfire is saying 100 million deaths is worth what mao and stalin did. I am pointing out that silly thinking like that is also applied to the socialists in germany, all of which is a stupid way to look at mass murder.

.

Not necessarily, Bill. Gran's not saying that. Gran's saying there was some good things like the mass literacy programs and the industrialization. And the stalin saving our butts in WWII. Gran's not saying the deaths were worth it or that all those deaths had to happen.

 

[billc]

From "liberal facism":

Insight into the mind-set of early members of the Nazi Party comes in the form of a series of essays written for a contest conducted by Theodore Abel, an impressively clever American Sociologist. In 1934 Abel took out an ad in the Nazi Party journal asking "old fighters" to submit essays explaining why they had joined. He restricted his request to "old fighters" because so many opportunists had joined the party after Hitler's rise. The essays were combined in the...book "Why Hitler came to power. One essayist, a coal miner, explained that he was "puzzled by the denial of race and nation implicit in Marxism,. Though I was interested in the betterment of the workingman's plight, I rejected [marxism]unconditionally. I often asked myself why socialism had to be tied up with internationalism-why it could not work as well or better in conjunction with nationalism." A Railroad worker concurred, "I shuddered at the thought of Germany in the grip of Bolshevism. the slogan 'workers of the world unite!' made no sense to me. At the same time however, National Socialism, with it's PROMISE OF COMMUNITY...BARRING ALL CLASS STRUGGLE, ATTRACTED ME PROFOUNDLY." A third worker wrote that he embraced the Nazis because of their "uncompromising will to STAMP OUT THE CLASS STRUGGLE, SNOBBERIES OF CASTE AND PARTY HATREDS. THE MOVEMENT BORE THE TRUE MESSAGE OF SOCIALISM TO THE GERMAN WORKING MAN."

Here you have low level party members talking about joining a socialist movement.

More:

The notion that communism and Nazism are polar opposites stems from the deeper truth that they are in fact kindred spirits. Or, as Richard Pipes has written, "Bolshevism and Facism were heresies of socialism." Both ideaologies are reactionary in the sense that they try to re-create tribal impulses. Communists champion class, Nazi race, Facists the nation. All such ideaologies-we can call them totalitarian for now-attract the same TYPES of people.

HITLERS HATRED OF COMMUNISM HAS BEEN OPPORTUNISTICALLY EXPLOITED TO SIGNIFY IDEOLOGICAL DISTANCE, WHEN IN FACT IT INDICATED THE EXACT OPPOSITE. TODAY THIS MANEUVER HAS SETTLED INTO CONVENTIONAL WISDOM. BUT WHAT HITLER HATED ABOUT MARXISM AND COMMUNISM HAD ALMOST NOTHING TO DO WITH THOSE ASPECTS OF COMMUNISM THAT WE WOULD CONSIDER RELEVANT, SUCH AS ECONOMIC DOCTRINE OR THE NEED TO DESTROY THE CAPITALIST AND BOURGEOISIE. IN THESE AREAS HITLER LARGELY SAW EYE TO EYE WITH SOCIALISTS AND COMMUNISTS. HIS HATRED STEMMED FROM HIS PARANOID CONVICTION THAT THE PEOPLE CALLING THEMSELVES COMMUNISTS WERE IN FACT IN ON A FORIEGN, JEWISH CONSPIRACY. ....HE STUDIED THE NAMES OF COMMUNISTS AND SOCIALISTS AND IF THEY SOUNDED JEWISH, THAT'S ALL HE NEEDED TO KNOW. IT WAS ALL A CON JOB, A RUSE, TO DESTROY GERMANY.

Only "authentically" German ideas from authentic Germans could be trusted. AND WHEN THOSE GERMANS, LIKE FEDER OR STRASSER, PROPOSED SOCIALIST IDEAS STRAIGHT OUT OF THE MARXIAN PLAYBOOK, HE HAD VIRTUALLY NO OBJECTION WHATSOEVER. HITLER NEVER CARED MUCH ABOUT ECONOMICS ANYWAY. HE ALWAYS CONSIDERED IT SECONDARY.

 

[Blade96]

you mean what they thought was a socialist movement.

 

[billc]

granfire, those people who you say are not doing anything to me are:

-telling us what kind of lightbulbs we can use, and requiring us to use mercury based bulbs
telling us what kind of toilet we can own
what kind of cars we can drive
how much money we can keep from what we earn
can now take one persons private property to give it to another person simply to increase the tax base
and on and on.

 

[billc]

Most countries can manage mass literacy programs without murdering people. Same goes for industrialization, the Japanese industrialized from the start point of a feudal society and they did not mass murder their people. there is something seriuosly wrong with socialism, especially its extreme forms.

 

[SensibleManiac]

I think it's time many people discovered the ignore feature, if anyone would like to know how to use it let me know. :uhyeah:

My :BSmeter: has reached it's limit.

 

[granfire]

I think it's time many people discovered the ignore feature, if anyone would like to know how to use it let me know. :uhyeah:

My :BSmeter: has reached it's limit.

I heard ya, however, some falsehoods need to be corrected...if not for the benefit of the spreader but very much so for the innocent bystander who is seeking to learn...