Where has true honesty gone?

[Bammx2]

This is one question that can't an "across the board" answer.

I am really intrigued by this.
What has happened to TRUE HONESTY?
It seems to me,that no matter how much you try,you just can't be truely honest in this day and age.
"Honesty" is not politically correct,so we all suffer for it.
"Honesty" is disrespectful to others.So now we are forced into a lie just to protect someones feelings?THEN the party in question gets mad when they find out you lied to them.
I see posts on here and other forums as well,hell..I see it everyday in every aspect of life,which are deleted or chopped up because someone will be offended.
In almost every religion in the world,lying is a HUGE no-no.
Now does that mean if the time comes to rewrite the old laws,lying will be written in as ok or even encouraged?
Everyone harps on the whole honesty thing,but few actually live it.Be it by choice or force,either way...Honesty has gone by the way side.
When did we become so soft skinned we can no longer tell the truth?
When did lying become the norm? Or acceptable? Or even expected?
Why does one persons perception of honesty has to suffer just because some flake can't handle it? Have we actually become a society of liars?

I am just curious in what other people think.
Personally...it sucks when people "can't handle the truth". Sorry,couldn't resist it,I tried though!

What dy'all think?

 

[ed-swckf]

This is one question that can't an "across the board" answer.

I am really intrigued by this.
What has happened to TRUE HONESTY?
It seems to me,that no matter how much you try,you just can't be truely honest in this day and age.
"Honesty" is not politically correct,so we all suffer for it.
"Honesty" is disrespectful to others.So now we are forced into a lie just to protect someones feelings?THEN the party in question gets mad when they find out you lied to them.
I see posts on here and other forums as well,hell..I see it everyday in every aspect of life,which are deleted or chopped up because someone will be offended.
In almost every religion in the world,lying is a HUGE no-no.
Now does that mean if the time comes to rewrite the old laws,lying will be written in as ok or even encouraged?
Everyone harps on the whole honesty thing,but few actually live it.Be it by choice or force,either way...Honesty has gone by the way side.
When did we become so soft skinned we can no longer tell the truth?
When did lying become the norm? Or acceptable? Or even expected?
Why does one persons perception of honesty has to suffer just because some flake can't handle it? Have we actually become a society of liars?

I am just curious in what other people think.
Personally...it sucks when people "can't handle the truth". Sorry,couldn't resist it,I tried though!

What dy'all think?

To be truly honnest i'm just sat here zoning out looking at the screen. Your post intrigued me but i couldn't be bothered to read it all, i read a few lines and had already formulated this reply of being honest about not putting much effort into my answer. I saw the last bit that said "what dy'all think?" and just hoped that my response fits in. Knowing my luck there is some key point to the post in the middle which i didn't and probably never will. I'm honest.

 

[someguy]

True honesty never existed.
At least not in the manner you suggest. Honesty must be ballanced with tact.

 

[michaeledward]

This is one question that can't an "across the board" answer.

I am really intrigued by this.
What has happened to TRUE HONESTY?
It seems to me,that no matter how much you try,you just can't be truely honest in this day and age.
"Honesty" is not politically correct,so we all suffer for it.
"Honesty" is disrespectful to others.So now we are forced into a lie just to protect someones feelings?THEN the party in question gets mad when they find out you lied to them.
I see posts on here and other forums as well,hell..I see it everyday in every aspect of life,which are deleted or chopped up because someone will be offended.
In almost every religion in the world,lying is a HUGE no-no.
Now does that mean if the time comes to rewrite the old laws,lying will be written in as ok or even encouraged?
Everyone harps on the whole honesty thing,but few actually live it.Be it by choice or force,either way...Honesty has gone by the way side.
When did we become so soft skinned we can no longer tell the truth?
When did lying become the norm? Or acceptable? Or even expected?
Why does one persons perception of honesty has to suffer just because some flake can't handle it? Have we actually become a society of liars?

I am just curious in what other people think.
Personally...it sucks when people "can't handle the truth". Sorry,couldn't resist it,I tried though!

What dy'all think?

Poppycock!

 

[Bammx2]

Poppycock!

explain

 

[michaeledward]

explain

The premise is Poppycock!.

It seems to me,that no matter how much you try,you just can't be truely honest in this day and age.
"Honesty" is not politically correct,so we all suffer for it.
"Honesty" is disrespectful to others.So now we are forced into a lie just to protect someones feelings?THEN the party in question gets mad when they find out you lied to them.

Honesty is not politically correct.
Honesty is not disrespectful to others.

Being honest can certainly affect someone's feelings, but that may be more an indication of the speaker than what is spoken.

Someone who is 'forced' to lie because they are concerned about affecting someone's feelings, perhaps, is in need of some character development.

Might I recommend a book, great reading since 1937

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671723650/qid=1125347850/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-2943678-3632101?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Dale Carnegie - How to win friends and influence people.

 

[sgtmac_46]

There is no such thing as true honesty. There are only adapted traits that we have developed that are either successful at gaining us an advantage or unsuccessful. There was a period of time when honesty was given more emphasis.

Patriarchal societies have emphasized honesty as a virtue. At it's core, patriarchy views honesty as an absolute necessity in maintaining order. In the most fundamental sense, men are concerned with ensuring paternity, and, hence, honesty is absolutely necessary from a biological standpoint. That is why anyone who is determined to be "dishonest" is shunned.

Early cultures (and even some primitive cultures of today) view dishonesty as a capital offense. That is why some islamic cultures stone to death women considered guilty of adultry.

Being a called a "liar" in a patriarchal society is one of the basest insults someone can receive. Being seen as an honest man or woman is paramount in a patriarchal society.

A matriarchal society, however, takes a more ambivalent look at honesty. Honesty is not seen as an absolute, and there are far more shades of gray involved.

From an evolutionary psychological perspective, the ability for females to hide paternity, for example, was a successful adaptation that allowed females to maximize resources while also maximizing genetic strength and diversity (i.e., parent the genetic offspring of the most genetically strong male, while utilizing the greater resources of another male.)

In a matriarchal society, honesty is not seen as an absolute virtue, and dishonesty is not seen as a cardinal sin, but is merely viewed as part of a greater whole.

But I digress.

In short, honesty has a longer and far more complex reality than simply "telling the truth".

 

[Andrew Green]

What dy'all think?

Honestly?

You smell funny, you're hair is horrible and yes those pants make your butt look big. You tend to chew with your mouth open and most sausage factories smell better then the bathroom after you're done in there. That shirt should have been left in the 80's and whatever scent you are wearing just killed my goldfish. You're favorite yellow shirt used to be white and so did your teeth.

How's that?

 

[Bammx2]

The premise is Poppycock!.


Honesty is not politically correct.
Honesty is not disrespectful to others.

Being honest can certainly affect someone's feelings, but that may be more an indication of the speaker than what is spoken.

Someone who is 'forced' to lie because they are concerned about affecting someone's feelings, perhaps, is in need of some character development.

Might I recommend a book, great reading since 1937

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671723650/qid=1125347850/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-2943678-3632101?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Dale Carnegie - How to win friends and influence people.

Bought the book,read the book,passed the book.

But thank you for you "honest" opinion...

PoppyCock

 

[Bammx2]

Honestly?

You smell funny, you're hair is horrible and yes those pants make your butt look big. You tend to chew with your mouth open and most sausage factories smell better then the bathroom after you're done in there. That shirt should have been left in the 80's and whatever scent you are wearing just killed my goldfish. You're favorite yellow shirt used to be white and so did your teeth.

How's that?

You have spyware! evil,evil spyware!

 

[MA-Caver]

Being totally honest? Very, very difficult but not impossible. It won't get you any popularity points either.
(from dictionary.com )

hon·es·ty: Pronunciation Key (n-st)
n. pl. hon·es·ties
1. The quality or condition of being honest; integrity.
2. Truthfulness; sincerity: in all honesty.

There is a thing called

Tact -- Pronunciation Key(tkt)n.
1. Acute sensitivity to what is proper and appropriate in dealing with others, including the ability to speak or act without offending.

and

Diplomacy di·plo·ma·cy -- Pronunciation Key (d-plm-s)n.
1. The art or practice of conducting international relations, as in negotiating alliances, treaties, and agreements.
2. Tact and skill in dealing with people. See Synonyms at tact.

These are things which we all practice to some degree or another. I recall my father was very good at these, when dealing with civic leaders while advocating rights for our people (the Deaf) and I hope that I manage to pick up some of those skills from him.
There is a fine line of course that we all know (internally) about being honest and being truthful. How honest we are depends a lot, I think, on our own integrity which is defined as: (from dictionary.com)

in·teg·ri·ty: Pronunciation Key (n-tgr-t)
n.
1. Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.
2. The state of being unimpaired; soundness.
3. The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness.

Some people will try to think they're being diplomatic by being blunt. While this is true it's not being tactful and mindful of another's feelings.
Problem with all of that is that we wrongfully take responsiblity for another's feelings when what we say hurts or offends. We are not responsiblity but we are responsible for being careful and sensitive to another's. If they still choose to be hurt or offended by what we say then we cannot be held liable because "they" made that choice which we cannot alter or change. By that I mean at that precise moment we cannot change their choices. However because being human we constantly make choices every single minnit of every single day we can help influence their choice(s) to be "un-offended." Usually this is done either with a sincere apology or by groveling at their feet begging for forgiveness.
Society also plays a big part in how we express our honesty. It was mentioned about being Politically correct, (who the hell decides that by the way??? :miffer: ). We learn how/what to do when being honest with another.
Ironically it's really the home environment is where we should learn/teach about honesty. We teach our children not to lie because we value the truth. How much we place empathsis on the value of truth will vary from individual to individual.
Being honest, really honest is a skill. Knowing what/when to be honest about something. How to be honest and why. Something I think that should be taught by sages and wise men. Oh wait it HAS been taught by sages and wise men... just getting folks to listen and assimulate them.
:asian:

 

[Loki]

Truth be told, I'm just as confused on this issue as you are. While I do think that tact should be employed, I still don't know how to handle thin-skinned people.

It turns out I'm a very charming and likeable person, and it's a mixed blessing, as I'm usually more of a private person. I have many lady friends who really like me, and while I don't not like them, I don't always look forward to meeting up with them because I feel there's no chemistry.

One of them asked me recently why I'm seclusive recently. I evaded the question, but she got mad that while I'm home all the time, she's home once a week (army service). If I come up with another excuse (I'm not busy lately), I come out a liar. If I tell the truth, I'm a jerk. It's a tough one...

 

[Adept]

When did lying become the norm? Or acceptable? Or even expected?

I expect the very first time a woman asked "Does my bum look big in this?" was the very first time man lied. And we've been doing it ever since.

 

[Andrew Green]

We are bombarded by lieing every time we try to buy something, turn on the radio or tv, read a newspaper. Anything, professional liars (advertisors) do it too us constantly.

To the point where if a product was to advertise itself truthfully it would never get off the ground.

Now toss in how image conscious our society has become, probably partially due to those same advertisors lieing to us about how we have too look and act in order to be "cool" and how only there product can do it. How we HAVE too loose weight, put on weight, dye our hair, wear make up, designer clothes etc.

Already we got a interesting mix going...

Now, sprinkle on top of that the fact that free speech is really quite expensive, and it is only free as long as you can afford more lawyers then the other guy.

How many people here have had someone threaten to sue them for comments they have made? *raises hand* Speaking the truth, when the truth is not good, can get you a big lawyer bill if you want to stand by it.

And last but not least, gossip, the biggest evil in the world. It seems to be programmed into some people. Anything you say can and will be twisted into something that will come back at you in a mutated form later on.

 

[Ceicei]

Truth be told, I'm just as confused on this issue as you are. While I do think that tact should be employed, I still don't know how to handle thin-skinned people.

It turns out I'm a very charming and likeable person, and it's a mixed blessing, as I'm usually more of a private person. I have many lady friends who really like me, and while I don't not like them, I don't always look forward to meeting up with them because I feel there's no chemistry.

One of them asked me recently why I'm seclusive recently. I evaded the question, but she got mad that while I'm home all the time, she's home once a week (army service). If I come up with another excuse (I'm not busy lately), I come out a liar. If I tell the truth, I'm a jerk. It's a tough one...

There is nothing wrong with saying "I prefer the privacy of being at home alone," if that is, in fact, the reality. People can sense the sincerity versus the evasiveness of giving excuses.

- Ceicei

 

[heretic888]

In short, honesty has a longer and far more complex reality than simply "telling the truth".

True enough.

Still, I can't help shuddering whenever theorists try to reduce moral principles to instrumentalist adaptations. It just reaks of academic hubris. Not to mention, they don't provide an ounce of empirical proof for any of their claims --- just philosophical speculations and logical premises.

Also, I'd like to know exactly which "matriarchal societies" we're referring to here. Some concrete examples and particulars would be nice.

 

[MA-Caver]

Truth be told, I'm just as confused on this issue as you are. While I do think that tact should be employed, I still don't know how to handle thin-skinned people.

It turns out I'm a very charming and likeable person, and it's a mixed blessing, as I'm usually more of a private person. I have many lady friends who really like me, and while I don't not like them, I don't always look forward to meeting up with them because I feel there's no chemistry.

One of them asked me recently why I'm seclusive recently. I evaded the question, but she got mad that while I'm home all the time, she's home once a week (army service). If I come up with another excuse (I'm not busy lately), I come out a liar. If I tell the truth, I'm a jerk. It's a tough one...

There is nothing wrong with saying "I prefer the privacy of being at home alone," if that is, in fact, the reality. People can sense the sincerity versus the evasiveness of giving excuses.

- Ceicei

Likewise there's nothing wrong with NOT having chemistry with a woman to be friends with her. I've dozens of "lady-friends" but we're just friends, no chemistry, no attraction, no intimacy (physical or otherwise...yes, there is more than one type of intimacy ), nothing except that we enjoy each other's company enough to either chat for a bit or whatever. It's that rare thing of platonic relations that still a lot of guys don't understand. But it took me a while too.

 

[Bammx2]

I do agree about tact.
But even that has its shortcommings,depending on who you're dealing with.
I think it's a shame that we have to resort to such things.
It is a neccessary evil.
But when,or why, did people become so thick or thin skinned?
I have a feeling this a question that may never be answered.

And for the record....
NO book is a blanket solution to the issue!
I don't care if it was written in 1837,1937 or shipped back from 2037!
And you think Carnegie didn't lie and ruin peoples lives?!
Thats the ONLY way to get that rich! By tricking and lying to people.
You think not....

He's still getting people to buy that book long after he's dead,isn't he

 

[michaeledward]

I do agree about tact.
But even that has its shortcommings,depending on who you're dealing with.
I think it's a shame that we have to resort to such things.
It is a neccessary evil.
But when,or why, did people become so thick or thin skinned?
I have a feeling this a question that may never be answered.

And for the record....
NO book is a blanket solution to the issue!
I don't care if it was written in 1837,1937 or shipped back from 2037!
And you think Carnegie didn't lie and ruin peoples lives?!
Thats the ONLY way to get that rich! By tricking and lying to people.
You think not....

He's still getting people to buy that book long after he's dead,isn't he

Again ... Poppycock.

This time, I'll suggest a Michael Jackson song for reference: 'The Man in the Mirror'.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

I'm sure Heretic won't like my 'instrumentalism' but I believe it's a matter of utility: tell the truth or lie - which will bring the greatest good to the greatest number of people.

Most people are overly selfish / self-centered, they choose depending on what will bring the greatest good to themselves - often that means, they will lie more.

I tend to be less self-centered than most people I know, so if I tell the truth and it backfires on me, I'm not really concerned as long as I believe that my honesty at that time did some good (even just for the virtuous act of being honest regardless).

I would rather be honest and hated for who I really am, than lie and have people like me for who I am not.

But that's just me.

If someone can't handle the truth, then just leave them alone - some people just can't be helped.

Don't think I'm honest all the time though - I'm no saint - It's a personal judgement call whether dishonesty will serve better towards the betterment of all involved.

E.g. in the not-hurting-someone's-feelings department, if you think the person can handle constructive critisism and will take your honest comments to heart and not lash out in defensiveness, then tell them the truth. If you know that person can't handle the truth, don't bother giving it to them - unless of course they really need it for their own good.

It's a case-by-case thing.