Po Pai Sao

[ShortBridge]

Curious if any of you who have gone deep enough into Wing Chun might have some thoughts on Po Pai Sao that you would be willing to share.

I've asked my SiFu and others. I've talked with some pretty credible people in both Wing Chun and Crane (which has a lot of it). I've gotten straight answers and I've played with it, but I always feel like there might be more to it than has sunk in with me.

Thanks in advance. If you don't understand the question, it's okay. If you know, you know.

 

[wckf92]

Curious if any of you who have gone deep enough into Wing Chun might have some thoughts on Po Pai Sao that you would be willing to share.

I've asked my SiFu and others. I've talked with some pretty credible people in both Wing Chun and Crane (which has a lot of it). I've gotten straight answers and I've played with it, but I always feel like there might be more to it than has sunk in with me.

Thanks in advance. If you don't understand the question, it's okay. If you know, you know.

Hey man. Cool thread.
Are you looking for specific information or just general conversation?
Can you post some of the info from the sources you mentioned to get things rolling or...?

 

[ShortBridge]

Hey man. Cool thread.
Are you looking for specific information or just general conversation?
Can you post some of the info from the sources you mentioned to get things rolling or...?

I'm fishing. What I was taught about it is not linkable from anywhere. It's all aural transmission. I've seen a few videos that support part of my basic understanding, but I'm wondering if there's more.

Clearly there is a push aspect to it. Arguably there is a double strike aspect to it. I've found it useful as a broad cover, almost functionally like I might use kwan sao (as a bridge).

My crane sifu doesn't only use it vertically and seems to prefer diagonal contact (e.g. - left shoulder, right hip). He also said a couple of other things about it that I haven't heard from a Wing Chun source; 1) The hands don't just go forward, but they also shear (top one goes forward and up, bottom one goes forward and down) which can make it more disruptive. 2) your palm doesn't have to be the point of contact for both or maybe either. He might use the palm high and a fist or pheonix eye or his fingertips in kind of an inverted bil sao low (don't know what that's called, but it hurts in the lower abdomen).

Anyway, I've played with it a lot and I find some utility in it, but I always feel like I'm missing something. I feel like people who should know don't have much to say about and I don't think they're holding anything back. I was training with one of my students this morning and realized that I kind of sounded like one of those people.

So, General. Specific. Anything.

 

[wckf92]

I'm fishing

Question for ya: have you ever pondered the Po Pi from the aspect of the knives?

Second: in order to discuss other aspects, I'd have to see how you execute the fifth set of MYJ form. (or what I would call the 'po pi' set.).

Just my .02 as my current state of development in the art.

 

[wckf92]

He also said a couple of other things about it that I haven't heard from a Wing Chun source; 1) The hands don't just go forward, but they also shear (top one goes forward and up, bottom one goes forward and down) which can make it more disruptive.

This is how I was taught.

 

[ShortBridge]

Question for ya: have you ever pondered the Po Pi from the aspect of the knives?

Yes, I definitely have. More broadly, I've been examining the relationship between empty hands and BJD aspects and playing chicken/egg on which may have spawned the other and this is one of the better examples.

Second: in order to discuss other aspects, I'd have to see how you execute the fifth set of MYJ form. (or what I would call the 'po pi' set.).

I'll see what I can do. I've generally been video shy/private about what we do, because of what it invites, but you and I have talked about reconciling our forms to examine the differences in DL training by decade and branch. That section would be a fairly benign share, though it would surely invite some conversation about some octagon somewhere, because internet.

 

[wckf92]

Yes, I definitely have. More broadly, I've been examining the relationship between empty hands and BJD aspects and playing chicken/egg on which may have spawned the other and this is one of the better examples


I'll see what I can do. I've generally been video shy/private about what we do, because of what it invites, but you and I have talked about reconciling our forms to examine the differences in DL training by decade and branch. That section would be a fairly benign share, though it would surely invite some conversation about some octagon somewhere, because internet.

Haha. Yeah no doubt.
Ok so with the knives comment I was just thinking about how a certain knife response to a pole looks a lot like Po Pi hands.
As for the dummy, I wouldn't worry about a video. But in that set, when you flank for the Po Pi, what is your top arm doing?

 

[ShortBridge]

Haha. Yeah no doubt.
Ok so with the knives comment I was just thinking about how a certain knife response to a pole looks a lot like Po Pi hands.
As for the dummy, I wouldn't worry about a video. But in that set, when you flank for the Po Pi, what is your top arm doing?

Top arm is high. I realize this is inconsistent. Our sigung said we should keep the bridge. I'm not sure if that was a later revision for him or what he left Hong Kong with.

And I know exactly what your BJD reference refers to. That had occurred to me.

Section 4 of the mook jong has that high double palm and it occurred to me yesterday that...maybe that was Po Pai Sao as well. Not what I was told about it and this gets a little bit into something that I refer to with my students as "mencing words in a language that we don't actually speak". Meaning, it can get into academic semantics and the value of that vs just taking the training and applying it is questionable beyond a certain point.

Maybe this whole question is. I do feel like Po Pai occasionally flows from a natural place for me, but I always question whether I really understand it or not.

 

[wckf92]

Top arm is high. I realize this is inconsistent. Our sigung said we should keep the bridge. I'm not sure if that was a later revision for him or what he left Hong Kong with.

And I know exactly what your BJD reference refers to. That had occurred to me.

Section 4 of the mook jong has that high double palm and it occurred to me yesterday that...maybe that was Po Pai Sao as well. Not what I was told about it and this gets a little bit into something that I refer to with my students as "mencing words in a language that we don't actually speak". Meaning, it can get into academic semantics and the value of that vs just taking the training and applying it is questionable beyond a certain point.

Maybe this whole question is. I do feel like Po Pai occasionally flows from a natural place for me, but I always question whether I really understand it or not.

Ok. Yeah I was taught the bridge is intact with that top arm too.
Perhaps the main idea being relayed in both set 4 and 5 (one being inside, the other outside) is the idea that the limb occludes as it is moving towards the target.
With regard to the flanking on the Po Pi set...if your top arm never made it to the target...hence the lower palm simultaneous strike to a different gate/level.
I'm probably just rambling nonsense and I'm sure you've already had these thoughts. Good topic though!

 

[ShortBridge]

I appreciate the response. I hope we get a chance to touch hands one of these days.

 

[Callen]

Maybe this whole question is. I do feel like Po Pai occasionally flows from a natural place for me, but I always question whether I really understand it or not.

Great topic! We need more posts like this, IMO.

Po Pai can also be trained as a controlling action, not as a primary goal. In this way, it is a simple push using whole-body unit power. Po Pai hand placement supports the same elbow down mechanics of the system as a whole, to evenly distribute a structure breaker or disruptor to create space and control distance when entangled or overwhelmed. Some also view it as a recovery action, functioning like much like kwan; where the action is defined more by the purpose and less by what shape the hands make.

 

[wckf92]

Great topic! We need more posts like this, IMO.

Po Pai can also be trained as a controlling action, not as a primary goal. In this way, it is a simple push using whole-body unit power. Po Pai hand placement supports the same elbow down mechanics of the system as a whole, to evenly distribute a structure breaker or disruptor to create space and control distance when entangled or overwhelmed. Some also view it as a recovery action, functioning like much like kwan; where the action is defined more by the purpose and less by what shape the hands make.

Awesome input. Thanks Callen!

 

[isshinryuronin]

The circular motion of the hands culminating in a hi-lo double palm strike is seen in several Okinawan kata from both the Shuri-te and Naha-te lineages, so it's origin likely goes pretty far back (150 yrs?). It can well be used as a clearing motion then a push away (to be followed up on) or a double vital point strike. This second application is more in line with karate doctrine. It is, in fact, illustrated in the Bubishi as such an attack from the outside line.

 

[geezer]

The circular motion of the hands culminating in a hi-lo double palm strike is seen in several Okinawan kata from both the Shuri-te and Naha-te lineages, so it's origin likely goes pretty far back (150 yrs?). It can well be used as a clearing motion then a push away (to be followed up on) or a double vital point strike. This second application is more in line with karate doctrine. It is, in fact, illustrated in the Bubishi as such an attack from the outside line.

I agree. WC's po-pai plams or sap gee palms have antecedents in Fukien Crane which also was a source of Okinawan Te, of so I'm told.

Personally, I do not find simultaneous double strikes as effective in practice as single strikes (whether using palm or fist). But that's not surprising since most double handed motions in the forms are applied single-handed in practice. Also I was intrigued by Callen's last post about using these techniques as controlling movements. That makes a lot of sense.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

a hi-lo double palm strike ..

In praying mantis, the hi-lo double palm strike is used as:

- The upper palm (horizontal palm) is used to push on your opponent's leading arm at his elbow joint. You can also use your horizontal leading arm to push your opponent's vertical leading upper arm.
- The lower palm (vertical palm) strikes on his chest.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I agree. WC's po-pai plams or sap gee palms have antecedents in Fukien Crane which also was a source of Okinawan Te, of so I'm told.

To be more accurate, Te refers to the native (pre kung fu) Okinawan fighting art (of which little is known, although has been used as a generic term of early Okinawan karate). Fukien styles such as crane were combined with te to become karate. In other words, crane and te were both sources of karate.

 

[O'Malley]

pondered the Po Pi

This is how, as a child, I would describe a long session on the toilet seat. There is certainly a push aspect to it.

 

[ShortBridge]

Thanks to everyone for continuing to respond with your inputs. I appreciate.

I'm not hearing much that hadn't at least occurred to me, which is not a terrible outcome. I just need to play with it more.

The existence of it in other systems is part of what tells me not to ignore or dismiss it too easily. If it were only in Yip Man Wing Chun, I might be more inclined to think I understood it as I needed to.