OP
Kenpomachine
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #22
Though I haven't read all this thread yet, I think we are all approaching it this time in a much more constructive and positive way.
Thank you for all the wisdom poured in here by everyone :asian:
Thank you for all the wisdom poured in here by everyone :asian:
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
It's good to see this topic treated respectfully...but I wonder if it is peaceful here because of battle-fatigue from the flame wars going on over at the KenpoNet forum...
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rmcrobertson
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #24
Actually, yes, as at times before.
These discussions remind me of two things in academics:
1) One of my writing students, last week, told me that he wanted to write an essay about why the flathead 6 was a superior engine to the V-12 for racing...I couldn't get him to see that it's all in how you set up the rules of the game and the definitions...that such issues are discussions of style and culture and preferences and histories, not discussions of scientific fact...
2) It's hard, these days, to get students to understand that it is NOT, "all good," that not all ideas are valid--that, as Stanley Fish wrote, college students should be taught to leave their opinions at home. Too many, these days, think that scientific theory and personal opinions are the same thing...they wouldn't know "science," if it mugged them.
Somewhere in between those two issues lies the reasons that I get so bloody tired of reading trumpeting about "absolute realism." Knowledge is so fragile, really, and it's so easy to cheat on the mat about, "realism..."
Most realistic thing I've read, lately, is a statement in Nigel Sutton's "Applied T'ai Chi Chuan," to the effect that it's better for students that they begin with forms whose applications are mysterious, so that they don't get unrealistic ideas about their fighting abilities...
(Yes, I recollect all the attacks on these sorts of ideas. Yes, some martial arts keep students in the dark forever. Yes, effective and efficient self-defense is a worthy goal. Yes, yes, yes. I got it, other folks than OFK, OK?)
I suppose one of the differences is that, as a bit of a martial arts lumphead, I have considerable respect for my own incapacity---I used to say that I knew enough kenpo to get myself into deep trouble, and not nearly enough to get me back out again...
These discussions remind me of two things in academics:
1) One of my writing students, last week, told me that he wanted to write an essay about why the flathead 6 was a superior engine to the V-12 for racing...I couldn't get him to see that it's all in how you set up the rules of the game and the definitions...that such issues are discussions of style and culture and preferences and histories, not discussions of scientific fact...
2) It's hard, these days, to get students to understand that it is NOT, "all good," that not all ideas are valid--that, as Stanley Fish wrote, college students should be taught to leave their opinions at home. Too many, these days, think that scientific theory and personal opinions are the same thing...they wouldn't know "science," if it mugged them.
Somewhere in between those two issues lies the reasons that I get so bloody tired of reading trumpeting about "absolute realism." Knowledge is so fragile, really, and it's so easy to cheat on the mat about, "realism..."
Most realistic thing I've read, lately, is a statement in Nigel Sutton's "Applied T'ai Chi Chuan," to the effect that it's better for students that they begin with forms whose applications are mysterious, so that they don't get unrealistic ideas about their fighting abilities...
(Yes, I recollect all the attacks on these sorts of ideas. Yes, some martial arts keep students in the dark forever. Yes, effective and efficient self-defense is a worthy goal. Yes, yes, yes. I got it, other folks than OFK, OK?)
I suppose one of the differences is that, as a bit of a martial arts lumphead, I have considerable respect for my own incapacity---I used to say that I knew enough kenpo to get myself into deep trouble, and not nearly enough to get me back out again...
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
Robert: Now you've posted something on cross training -- and I can't find anything in it with which to disagree. I am feeling queasy...sweating...turning pale...got to sit down...
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KenpoMatt
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #27
yep, that's my alma mater - thanks Molson
LOL!!!
Yes, I am impressed also. Its also good to see the forum taking a turn for the better---not as much fighting!Mike
Brother John
Senior Master
ONLY after 5th dan.
I'm a firm believer in this.
Your Bro.
John
I'm a firm believer in this.
Your Bro.
John
Just curious, but why so long?
Mike
Brother John
Senior Master
For complete internalization of the first/base art...
this is what I got from a martial artist that I trust and believe in, I think his logic is sound.
Perhaps I shouldn't say that I'm a "firm" believer in this, that's not worded accurately. I think this makes good sense, but I don't feel it's the ONLY way to go I guess.
It's up to the person:
Has the first art given you the knowledge and (more importantly) the competency that you want?
Is the second (third) art complimentary or compensatory?? In other words... is it very similar in nature and approach OR does it fill in the gaps of the first art?
Important considerations.
Your Brother
John
John, thanks for the explaination!!
Mike
Mike
Brother John
Senior Master
I'm not judging you for this at all.
I think this thought crosses (or has crossed) many Kenpoists minds before and will continue to...
but for you in particular
WHY?
Your Brother
John
rmcrobertson wrote:
What an intriguing twist on an idea (hiding self-defense applications in mysterious forms) normally discredited by "modern" martial artists - that it is actually more practical for students to have the applications hidden rather than immediately revealed. On the surface, it seems the opposite of practicality, but I can see the logic here since in my experience beginners in the arts (and not just Kenpo) think after a few lessons, months, etc. that they are super-invincible. Thus, I get the sense of waiting until the students really can move, control their musculature, have ingrained the patterns, etc., at which point the application is revealed so that they might now actually really be able to successfully use it in a confrontation.
Now I'm not saying that I'm sold on the idea since I like the up front "here's the application" approach of Kenpo, but your quote definitely gave me something to think about. There is certainly at least a reasonable justification for that traditional manner of instruction (though I'm not sure if that justification is typical of that traditional approach or is just that one fellow's perspective, but the point remains).
Thanks.
Howard
What an intriguing twist on an idea (hiding self-defense applications in mysterious forms) normally discredited by "modern" martial artists - that it is actually more practical for students to have the applications hidden rather than immediately revealed. On the surface, it seems the opposite of practicality, but I can see the logic here since in my experience beginners in the arts (and not just Kenpo) think after a few lessons, months, etc. that they are super-invincible. Thus, I get the sense of waiting until the students really can move, control their musculature, have ingrained the patterns, etc., at which point the application is revealed so that they might now actually really be able to successfully use it in a confrontation.
Now I'm not saying that I'm sold on the idea since I like the up front "here's the application" approach of Kenpo, but your quote definitely gave me something to think about. There is certainly at least a reasonable justification for that traditional manner of instruction (though I'm not sure if that justification is typical of that traditional approach or is just that one fellow's perspective, but the point remains).
Thanks.
Howard
OP
KenpoMatt
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #35
Why? Hmm...for a few different reasons. It really depends on which style we're talking about. Some, admittedly may sound silly. But, at least I am being honest. Ok - the reasons:
1) I have been to a couple of judo and BJJ seminars. I am completely tickled by the act of flipping someone across the mat. It is just plain FUN. Another reason is that I'd like to know that I can *seriously* hold my own against a grappler if I ever got laid out on my back.
2) I always enjoy the opportunity to spar ppl from other MA's. It throws me off my game when I'm not seeing the same things or types of things all the time. (example: I believe kenpoka tend to have similar sparring traits such as no or low kick, close range, blazing speed, etc). I like to see what the other guys are going to throw at me.
3) The final reason is just simple curiosity. I am curious guy in with things. It's just in my nature.
Don't get me wrong. I love kenpo. It will always be a huge part of my life and the primary focus of my training.
Anyway - those are just a few of my reasons.
What are your thoughts? Haven't you ever been curious?
Brother John
Senior Master
I like your reasons.
At what stage in your current art will you begin 'crosstraining'?
Your Brother
John
At what stage in your current art will you begin 'crosstraining'?
Your Brother
John
psi_radar
Black Belt
It's nice to see a positive thread on this.
I'm a believer in crosstraining, due to a couple reasons:
I was a high school wrestler, so in some ways Kenpo is already cross-training to me. A part of me will always want to get in a crouch and shoot for the legs.
My instructor is a cross-trainer himself and has always injected a little "flava" from other arts here and there as a supplement or counterpoint to the Kenpo instruction. And he hosts instructors form other arts from time to time as well.
To add an analogy that basically aligns with what KenpoMatt said:
I live in Colorado. Colorado has some of the best outdoor terrain to explore, decent food, and it's a generally good place to live. You could spend a lifetime exploring every mountain, river, landmark, and restaurant. However, I enjoy traveling, seeing different places, cultures, hearing their languages and delving into the different tastes of their cuisine and ways of life. It challenges my own way of life and helps me to grow.
Kenpo is the place I live, and it's comfortable. But that doesn't mean I don't like visiting other arts. I always take away something good (gotta love those guntings and the padua kappala (sp) and there's a LOT to that Systema stuff).
I just like learning new things. It's fun, and I don't feel like I'm cheating myself or my art, rather helping myself grow within it.
So I say yeah, go for it, though I think it's good to have a base first to establish reference points.
I'm a believer in crosstraining, due to a couple reasons:
I was a high school wrestler, so in some ways Kenpo is already cross-training to me. A part of me will always want to get in a crouch and shoot for the legs.
My instructor is a cross-trainer himself and has always injected a little "flava" from other arts here and there as a supplement or counterpoint to the Kenpo instruction. And he hosts instructors form other arts from time to time as well.
To add an analogy that basically aligns with what KenpoMatt said:
I live in Colorado. Colorado has some of the best outdoor terrain to explore, decent food, and it's a generally good place to live. You could spend a lifetime exploring every mountain, river, landmark, and restaurant. However, I enjoy traveling, seeing different places, cultures, hearing their languages and delving into the different tastes of their cuisine and ways of life. It challenges my own way of life and helps me to grow.
Kenpo is the place I live, and it's comfortable. But that doesn't mean I don't like visiting other arts. I always take away something good (gotta love those guntings and the padua kappala (sp) and there's a LOT to that Systema stuff).
I just like learning new things. It's fun, and I don't feel like I'm cheating myself or my art, rather helping myself grow within it.
So I say yeah, go for it, though I think it's good to have a base first to establish reference points.
psi_radar
Black Belt
Since we're being all civilized here, thought I might bring this up:
Ed Parker Sr. cross trained--(boxing and Judo and FMA, as well as Kempo, I believe) and integrated what he learned from these arts as well as original material into what is now AK, isn't it safe to say that someone studying Kenpo is already cross-training?
(ducks for cover) :asian:
Ed Parker Sr. cross trained--(boxing and Judo and FMA, as well as Kempo, I believe) and integrated what he learned from these arts as well as original material into what is now AK, isn't it safe to say that someone studying Kenpo is already cross-training?
(ducks for cover) :asian:
OP
vincefuess
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #39
I don't think I have ever met an avid martial artist who didn't at least dabble in other arts outside their primary art. As you gain ability and insight, you see things in other arts that you find attractive or interesting. American Kenpo is itself an ecclectic art, pooling techniques and motions from many other arts. This makes Kenpo an excellent art to graft techniques from other arts into- you can always find a logical place to put something new.
A great many Kenpo schools incorporate Filipino Martial Arts such as Kali into their curriculum, as these styles are very complimentary.
You can find something good in every art, but be sure to be well grounded in a particualr discipline before you branch out too much. Cross training too early leads to a condition (often terminal) called "Eternal Brown Belt". You've seen 'em. People who have trained for EONS and still have a brown belt, dirty and beat up from tied on a billion times, who know a little about every martial art on the planet... Not that there's anything wrong with that (hell, I was on the three year ORANGE belt program myself until Sifu pointed out that my orange belt was turning itself brown, and I got serious about advancing). You get the point, I'm sure.
A great many Kenpo schools incorporate Filipino Martial Arts such as Kali into their curriculum, as these styles are very complimentary.
You can find something good in every art, but be sure to be well grounded in a particualr discipline before you branch out too much. Cross training too early leads to a condition (often terminal) called "Eternal Brown Belt". You've seen 'em. People who have trained for EONS and still have a brown belt, dirty and beat up from tied on a billion times, who know a little about every martial art on the planet... Not that there's anything wrong with that (hell, I was on the three year ORANGE belt program myself until Sifu pointed out that my orange belt was turning itself brown, and I got serious about advancing). You get the point, I'm sure.
Very good point. It strikes me funny though, as to why some people, especially some of the die hard Kenpo guys speak so negative about crosstraining, when the GM of the very system that they study did it. Their response is, "Why cross train? Its already in there." Well of course its in there....someone must have crosstrained to put it there.
Mike
