When to begin cross-training

[KenpoMatt]

Ok, here's a question for you...

I train in American Kenpo. I envision that at some point in my martial career I will cross-train in another style. At what point do you believe it is appropriate to begin training in another style? What is the indicator that lets you as a MA'ist know you are ready to branch out?

 

[jfarnsworth]

Cross train only after you have a good grasp upon the art you are currently taking. If I were you I'd take a look at a few other threads that have been posted on here. This could turn out to be ugly.:asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Just had to give this thread five stars in anticipation of the upcoming keyboard slugfest...

 

[Ender]

I think anytime you add knowledge it is a good thing. as long as it doesn't conflict with your primary style. like the previous post, if you haven't grasped firmly what you have learned, then adding more knowledge will only cause confusion. JMO

 

[bdparsons]

MartialTalk.Com>Arts>Kenpo/Kempo - General>Just started Kenpo, style to go with?

Respects,
Bill Parsons

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Just had to give this thread five stars in anticipation of the upcoming keyboard slugfest...

OFK;
I'll give it a 10 if you can fight the good fight again!

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Matt_IUP
Ok, here's a question for you...

I train in American Kenpo. I envision that at some point in my martial career I will cross-train in another style. At what point do you believe it is appropriate to begin training in another style? What is the indicator that lets you as a MA'ist know you are ready to branch out?

Oh my God!!!! Here we go again! Bro, I hope you realize the trouble you just started by making this post! LOL, I'm only joking with you. But, I can already predict that there will be LOTS of discussion on this.

To answer the question. IMO, I would not start cross training until you already have a good understanding of your base art. What is a good understanding and how long will it take? That depends on the person. I would say that by the middle belts---blue, green, brown--if you want to start, then go right ahead. Of course, you are going to hear from people on here, "Why cross train, when there is so much to learn in Kenpo?" Keep in mind that we all train differently. We all have different reasons for training. I cross train in Arnis and BJJ. I do the Arnis, because it blends with any art. It addresses weapons a little better than the Kenpo. I do the BJJ, to have a better understanding of the ground. While Kenpo, according to some, addresses the ground, it does not address it the same way as the BJJ does.

While the journey does not end with Black belt, and there is much more to learn and expand on, there is such a wide variety of things out there and different concepts to look at, I say, why not get a sample of something different? I'm not saying you have to drop your base art and begin another, but if you can take an idea from another style and make it work for you and make your Kenpo better, why not do it!

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...according to your profile you're a white belt? Why's this an issue, if you're happy with where you're training?

I pretty much agree with the last poster, though.

 

[KenpoMatt]

OK - thanks everyone. I certainly didn't mean to start a holy war. That wasn't my intention. Obviously, you've been over this subject before. I'm new to this discusion board. My apologies.

Robert - It really isn't an issue. Frankly, I was just reading some of the conversations posted here and was interested in getting involved. It seems I picked a topic that has already been beaten to death. I am happy with where I am training. Also, I am not new the martial arts and I'll leave it at that.

Everyone - thanks very much for your input.

 

[Turner]

I'll add my two cents in here.

I believe that it depends on what you are studying the martial arts for as to when you should cross train (or whether you cross train at all.)

If you are studying for the martial aspects... i.e. you are anticipating that you will be faced with combat soon, you should probably cross train as soon as possible to cover the situations you might be faced with. (Kenpo for stand-up, BJJ for ground, Arnis for weapons and etc.)

When studying for the martial aspects, efficiency is key. You want to learn as quickly and as effectively as possible because you feel that you face a threat that could come at any moment.

If you are studying for the artistic aspects... i.e. This is a hobby, lifestyle or a form of recreation, it is my opinion that you should probably wait until you at least have your 3rd Degree Black Belt.

When studying for the artistic aspects, the goal is not only to know how to use the material but how to incorporate it into who you are as a person. This means that you should know enough to not only understand how to use it but you can analyze it and break it down to the point where you can understand why it works for you and why it might not work for others.

Because we all focus on different things we have different opinions about whether cross training is important or whether or not one should practice forms. The martialist is focused on defending him or herself and that is the sole focus. All other gains are secondary. The artist is interested in the big picture, they want it all and are willing to take their time to get it.

Both approaches to Kenpo have their merit. Some truly need to have the martialist approach, but once they have their brown belt in Kenpo and a purple belt in BJJ they should have sufficient skills to protect them from an attack. Once they've won or lost that impending battle, where do they go from there? Unless they decide to move onto something else, they must move from being the martialist to being the artist. Most don't make that transition very well. The whole artistic approach just isn't them. They've focused on efficiency and effectiveness that the artistic approach, seems wasteful. Forms? There are drills that teach the same things as forms but more efficiently and more effectively. So? To the artist a form is done not only because it teaches something, it provides a sense of enjoyment. And so the martialist moves from the primary art that he/she loves and moves on to another one because it is effective and efficient. In time they will begin to see redundancies and inefficiencies in that art and will move on to another one that is effective and efficient in a different way. The martialist will spend a lifetime training hard to be unbeatable because there is always the realization that there is someone out there better and want to be prepared in case an encounter occurs.

The Artist approaches the arts very differently. They have experienced one art and even though there may be other more effective and efficient arts out there, this is their ART and they love it because it provides them with everything that they need. They are interested in learning self-defense but they have a need that good beyond just self-defense. They love the motions involved in their art and they continue with it because they know that if they put in enough time they will be able to understand so much because all of the martial arts are based on one common thing; motion. If they continue to analyze and study motion and the principles inherent to motion in time they will be able to understand it all. If they don't then the journey wasn't wasted because it did lead them somewhere and that is all they want. They spend a lifetime constantly being amazed at all of the tiny aspects of the arts that they have to learn. They can't comprehend the martialists approach... why would someone go somewhere else when you've got everything you need right here? The issue is efficiency. Yes, the artistic approach of self-discovery winds up being more rewarding artistically than the martialist approach of seeking out others who have already made the discoveries, but the martialist approach makes for better fighters sooner.

Is one way better than the other? It depends on your goals.
When should you cross train? It depends on your goals.

That's my opinion. It's also my opinion that it is silly to argue over such things. It all has merit, depending on your perspective/point of view. Go ahead and debate the issues and try to help the other to understand your point of view, but understand that it may not be possible and that no matter what you shouldn't take the issue personally.

Doug Turner

A side note: No matter who you are, if you've learned something from more than one source you have cross trained. Cross training is merely the study of motion from different perspectives.

 

[Michael Billings]

... and a nice distinction between what drives different individuals.

There are a couple of other catagories of students I see, but rather than muddy up the waters, I like the way you set this paradigm up. Maybe what I see are sub-catagories under the two broad general headings you offer.

It is a silly arguemnent, with a no-win solution since people are coming from such diametrically opposed perspectives of "why they train." This explains, in-part, why there can be no resolution to the disagreements between the two camps.

Oss

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Uh...according to your profile you're a white belt? Why's this an issue, if you're happy with where you're training?

I pretty much agree with the last poster, though.

Where does it say that in his profile?? I see no mention of rank?

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Matt_IUP
OK - thanks everyone. I certainly didn't mean to start a holy war. That wasn't my intention. Obviously, you've been over this subject before. I'm new to this discusion board. My apologies.

Robert - It really isn't an issue. Frankly, I was just reading some of the conversations posted here and was interested in getting involved. It seems I picked a topic that has already been beaten to death. I am happy with where I am training. Also, I am not new the martial arts and I'll leave it at that.

Everyone - thanks very much for your input.

Matt- Do not get discouraged by anything that someone posts on here. Everybody has their own opinions and yes, we all voice them. By all means, if you have a question about something, please feel free to ask. You might take a little bit of a beating on here, but don't let it stop you from posting a question that you may have.

This topic however, has been discussed on another thread, but like I said, dont stop posting!!!

Mike

 

[KenpoMatt]

Thanks Mike - I'll stick around. You guys don't seem that bad anyway

 

[Turner]

I agree that I gave two very broad categories that people MAY fit into. I also see other categories that a person may fall into, however I used these two since they seem to rival each other constantly on forums.

Other categories to consider:
Art/technique Collector (This is a person that appears at first glance to be a martialist, but they don't really look for effective or efficient. They just want different.)

Belt Collector (This is a person that is just looking for a certain rank and wind up taking short-cuts in order to get there, like taking Dragon Kenpo or the Chief's course.)

List maker (This is a person that has the appearance of being an artist at first, but they stop once they get to a certain point primarily at black belt. They have always wanted to have a black belt and so they'll spend however long it takes to get that black belt, but once that test is over they will gradually or even quickly drop out of the martial arts, proud in the knowledge that they have a black belt.)

Martialist Artist (The person that is equally interested in the martialist and the artist approaches. Being very rare, they wind up being the innovators and explorers like Parker and Lee.)

Candy Artists (A person that looks like an artist, but doesn't actually explore for their personal discovery. They are just there and they remain there. They make no discoveries on their own. They only progress as they are handed new information. They are clones, carbon copies.. void of a soul. Their knowledge is like a dictionary. They know the words and the definitions but really don't know what it all means.)

I'm sure there are plenty more.

 

[Michael Billings]

I guess I never really defined or named the catagories, but I certainly see them, and have to chuckle.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I feel that cross-training is important (have I said that before?). Everyone should be exposed to other arts -- just like everyone should take a year of a foreign language in school and should visit another country sometime in their life.

But you don't have to sacrifice basic study in your primary art to BEGIN cross training. You don't have to sacrifice one or more nights a week to BEGIN cross-training. You can attend a seminar. Your sensei can invite another martial artist to give a seminar at your school. You could go to another school and take the 3- or 5-lesson introductory course. That is enough to give you a basic flavor for another style. This should be done after a few years of study. The insights gained from seeing another art's perspective can only help you develop a deeper understanding of Kenpo.

Now, after you've achieved your Black Belt in Kenpo, you will have enough information to decide what to do next: to continue focusing on Kenpo, to augment your Kenpo with 1 or 2 days a week of something else (not just martial arts, maybe more college, maybe a cooking class, maybe going on a date...), or switching entirely to a new style or outside endeavor. Since Black Belt is just the beginning of your real Kenpo development, I suspect that most will choose to focus on Kenpo while dabbling in seminars to broaden their martial knowledge. And that is just fine.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I quite agree with the very-traditionalist idea that the real way to cross-train doesn't involve "martial arts," at all, but such matters as living a life, studying calligraphy, working on your house, etc. Nice.

Since the problem is that too many of these arguments are wedded to rigid and dogmatic ideas about, "inside," and, "outside," about, "fighting," vs. "art," etc., this is a good way around.

Or, we could simply accept that everything we do on a mat, or in training, is to some extent fantasy. That's what all eddication is, anyway, what Goffman calls, "utilitarian make-believe."

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Robert: Did you and I just agree on something about Cross-training?

 

[Kenpodoc]

I find that the longer I study Kenpo the less I feel the need to cross train. I feel that you add little to your knowlege till you have a good base to work from. The longer I train the more I find that I need to improve my Kenpo.

I do find that when I'm exposed to other arts I find even more within the Kenpo. I do find that when I see something new I often need to reexamine Kenpo for new answers.

There has been a lot of useless energy expended on telling others to crosstrain/or not. I personally Study Kenpo and dabble in other arts (for fun). I judge others by what they come to the mat with, not by the color of their belt, or the style they study or the awards they've been given. Clyde chooses no to cross train but from everything I've heard he deserves my respect as a martial artist. Martin Wheeler has cross trained extensively and earns my respect everytime I meet him. Al McLuckie doesn't study Kenpo at all (FMA/Systema) but is awe inspiring and impresses Kenpoists when they meet him. There is more than one road to the truth (possibly more than one truth.) I do know that you can't get anywhere unless you put the energy into traveling that road.

Jeff