When the kata is applied to self defense

[now disabled]

Do you have any evidence to support any of those stories? There's one story where his devoted students talk about O Sensei having telepathic powers, or hitting a golf ball through a wall. Then there's another story where he waved his hand and the guy was instantly thrown to the mat.

I would appreciate some accounts that don't come from such biased sources as his students or family members.

I am not talking about what his students are saying lol.....jeez you really do need to do more research lol ... you are picking out things that you want to it your ideas and editing out the bits that do not fit

I'll give you a clue to one thing I mentioned in the last post to you Asahi newspaper ok start from there and go back

 

[now disabled]

Comparing a footwork drill to kata is simply a bad comparison though. Drills are not held in the same level of esteem in TMA schools as kata is. It's not the "doing" that is the problem, its the emphasis placed upon them. When I sparred against a boxer and got my butt handed to me, my karate instructor told me I was outclassed because I didn't understand the nature of karate via kata. In reality, I was outclassed because that boxer was doing drills and sparring that actually reinforced his fighting methodology. Meanwhile, I was doing antiquated stances and techniques that will never be used in a fight.

You can get by with some sloppy footwork. You can't get by if you're spending a lot of time learning useless techniques.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...........lol

Footwork drills can be part of more advanced Kata or they can be considered Kihon Waza (yes I am gonna use the terms I know as in another tread and this one you filp them in and out as you please lol)

And if the footwork is part of the Kata then yes it is kinda important as if ya get it wrong you could end up on ya *** looking very silly

Jeez you really really really do not understand what Kata are what they meant for and what they transition into etc etc etc

 

[Hanzou]

I am not talking about what his students are saying lol.....jeez you really do need to do more research lol ... you are picking out things that you want to it your ideas and editing out the bits that do not fit

I'll give you a clue to one thing I mentioned in the last post to you Asahi newspaper ok start from there and go back

Howabout you save us both some time and simply link me to the article in question?

Jeez you really really really do not understand what Kata are what they meant for and what they transition into etc etc etc

Yes, I've been told that before. I didn't believe it then, and I believe it even less now that I've studied a martial art that doesn't do kata at all. There's nothing magical or special about kata.

 

[now disabled]

I actually have just given my grandaughter my stick ....and to her if a dude comes to the door with a pic of Kano .......please show him what you can do lol.........and then say SEE i did the kata then the Kihon then went from there so now will ya believe that Kata are of use lol .......lol

 

[now disabled]

Howabout you save us both some time and simply link me to the article in question?



Yes, I've been told that before. I didn't believe it then, and I believe it even less now that I've studied a martial art that doesn't do kata at all. There's nothing magical or special about kata.

Eh go to your favourite You tube and guess what you might find it there ....as for the Soden ..... lol you are joking it is 12 volumes (six contain Ueshiba (1-6) .......... As for his History there is much written .....try Stan Pranin as a start and then go from there ....I would suggest his sons Auto biography but unless you can read japanese ......and ummm I'm sure even then you'd have issues as it not been translated

 

[now disabled]

Howabout you save us both some time and simply link me to the article in question?



Yes, I've been told that before. I didn't believe it then, and I believe it even less now that I've studied a martial art that doesn't do kata at all. There's nothing magical or special about kata.

Oh and where pray tell did anyone say that Kata were magical etc .................??????????????????????

 

[jobo]

Unhelpful bastard.


Interesting. Can you give me some more detail on how the kata helped change your movement? I've been wondering if forms might be useful for helping students work to change ingrained movement patterns (like Shotokan folks starting in my program).

At it's most fundamental it started to address my right left bias, I would always push of my right foot and lead with my left, always turn to my left if I was pulling, so my dominant hand was the puller,, always turn to my right if I was going 180' and lots of others, I've stood there trying to make my body move right foot first, whilst it just moved my left or even refused to move at all, as it was so counter intuitive

 

[DaveB]

I don't put much stock in stories of old masters defeating hordes of Ninjas and Manchu armies. Funakoshi for example opposed sparring, so I seriously doubt he was much of a fighter. In fact his staunch opposition to sparring is what led many like Mas Oyama to leave Shotokan and form other karate styles.

And yet Oyama credits Funakoshi as his biggest influence.

The not believing in sparring thing was a political position based on the time.
It also was not universal across his contemporaries or those students who came after him.

This in its self is more proof that style is not what determines training.

 

[now disabled]

And yet Oyama credits Funakoshi as his biggest influence.

The not believing in sparring thing was a political position based on the time.
It also was not universal across his contemporaries or those students who came after him.

This in its self is more proof that style is not what determines training.

Your point about time is pertinent .....least I think it is ..... The occupation did have a hell of a lot to do with what was (after the ban was lifted on the Arts) actually taught and subsequently exported to the world (I am talking only Japanese here) there was an very very big shift to ummmm give Japan a face lift so to speak .... One great example is Kendo (imo) as look at what was pre war then post war it kinda different .....even what Ueshiba taught pre and during the war was and is not what was exported ....so time period yup it kinda does have an influence

 

[Hanzou]

And yet Oyama credits Funakoshi as his biggest influence.

That really doesn't contradict anything I said above.

The not believing in sparring thing was a political position based on the time.
It also was not universal across his contemporaries or those students who came after him.

Where did I say they did?

 

[now disabled]

By the comment DB made, each teacher has his own system, to an extent. It'd be entirely possible for someone to add some strikes into BJJ, without messing much with the core of the art. But in a standard BJJ program, strikes aren't much present, so it's not the students' fault they aren't really training strikes in that system. So, "the system" doesn't have to be the same as "the art". At least, I think that's what he was getting at.

That again is a good point ....every teacher has his/her own style .....hence when learning if possible it worth taking classes in the same art from different teachers and absorbing into yourself the different takes on things as they can and do vary

 

[DaveB]

By the comment DB made, each teacher has his own system, to an extent. It'd be entirely possible for someone to add some strikes into BJJ, without messing much with the core of the art. But in a standard BJJ program, strikes aren't much present, so it's not the students' fault they aren't really training strikes in that system. So, "the system" doesn't have to be the same as "the art". At least, I think that's what he was getting at.

Yes, but It's even more simple than that.

Training is training. It's not the martial art it's training to be able to do the martial art.

Training is variable, every instructor decides for himself which and how much of each exercise to do.

Shotokan isn't a guy with a gun to an instructors family. It's not a list of training methods that you must follow exactly to.get your black belt. It's a bunch of principles that should help you beat up an assailant. You make your body and mind able to embrace and exploit those principles the best you can as an individual and as an instructor you help others do the same the best way you know how.

 

[DaveB]

That really doesn't contradict anything I said above.



Where did I say they did?

Drop bear said it.

You implied it by trying to group by style when discussing fighting ability.

 

[pdg]

There's one story where his devoted students talk about O Sensei ---, or hitting a golf ball through a wall.

I hit a golf ball through a wall once.


Ok, it was a greenhouse wall, but it still counts...

 

[now disabled]

@Hanzou

I have a question for you lol

Shikko now that is a very very important part of Aikido and to an extent Daito-ryu to ...it is rooted in the past (Daito-ryu is Koryu) and as you have alluded to you do not see that any of those two arts evolve or adapt and are very very critical of them so I'll ask you if you know why that is done and for what purpose ? .......straight question and ummmmm there may be a hidden meaning lol......

 

[pdg]

Yes, I've been told that before. I didn't believe it then, and I believe it even less now that I've studied a martial art that doesn't do kata at all. There's nothing magical or special about kata.

Magical? No.

Special? Well sometimes.

But another "depends" - what do you call special?

 

[now disabled]

I hit a golf ball through a wall once.


Ok, it was a greenhouse wall, but it still counts...

LMAO ..........................................was that kata you used or was it you adapted it from the kata you were first taught lol? or ya just ummm well made a miscalculation lol

 

[now disabled]

Magical? No.

Special? Well sometimes.

But another "depends" - what do you call special?

Oh you just made me almost make a uote that would offend regarding Special lol.............being a brit you might get what I and meaning lol

 

[Hanzou]

Drop bear said it.

You implied it by trying to group by style when discussing fighting ability.

If the founder of the style opposes sparring, that will filter down to his students. Clearly some students may deviate from that, but some won't. And yes, lack of sparring or contact retards fighting ability.

 

[now disabled]

If the founder of the style opposes sparring, that will filter down to his students. Clearly some students may deviate from that, but some won't. And yes, lack of sparring or contact retards fighting ability.

You as the the poster said might want to look into why he opposed it as such before jumping fully on that wagon .......and has anyone ever said that is you wanna be a fighter you must restrict sparring ??? ..............ummmmm your twisting what was said to suit your needs again me thinks