When recreational drugs are legal...

[WC_lun]

As a LEO his job is to enforce the law. He doesn't choose which laws to enforce. Would you really want law enforcement personel deciding which laws to enforce and which laws not to? What if it was a law you thought should be enforced and they didn't. That would be a recipe for disaster and why we have the courts. To tell a LEO that he should ignore laws because "you" don't like them is not fair to guys on the job. If you want civil disobedience then smoke pot and get arrested in a very public way.

 

[Steve]

AND a good explination of why I arrest weed smokers. I know its illegal and so do you. If its legal tomorrow than fine....but today spare me the crying about "why me".

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Fixed that for you.


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[Makalakumu]

As a LEO his job is to enforce the law. He doesn't choose which laws to enforce. Would you really want law enforcement personel deciding which laws to enforce and which laws not to? What if it was a law you thought should be enforced and they didn't. That would be a recipe for disaster and why we have the courts. To tell a LEO that he should ignore laws because "you" don't like them is not fair to guys on the job. If you want civil disobedience then smoke pot and get arrested in a very public way.

I bet the SS would agree with that! Oh crap did I just Godwin this thread?

Seriously, though, there has to be a point where a good man can cease to call themselves good if they keep following orders.

For example, how can a cop bust a guy for coke or smack when the very government that made it illegal ships it in, sells it to run "special projects" and has our soldiers guarding their suppliers? Give me a break. This is a serious moral contradiction. Maybe not Nazi level, but serious enough that I think it should make any "good" man pause and think.

 

[Tgace]

I bet the SS would agree with that! Oh crap did I just Godwin this thread?

Seriously, though, there has to be a point where a good man can cease to call themselves good if they keep following orders.

For example, how can a cop bust a guy for coke or smack when the very government that made it illegal ships it in, sells it to run "special projects" and has our soldiers guarding their suppliers? Give me a break. This is a serious moral contradiction. Maybe not Nazi level, but serious enough that I think it should make any "good" man pause and think.

It's not "following orders", it's enforcing the laws legally imposed by our elected government and dare I add supported by at least half of the population.

Its always convienent to whip out the jackboot canard because its your pet issue.

I have plenty of discretion in violation level weed possession cases sometimes I use it but I have no issues with arresting people who play the drug user game knowing full well the consequences.

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[Tgace]

What if it was a law you thought should be enforced and they didn't.

Why then we "wouldn't be doing our jobs" of course.

Same old same old in this job. Everyone wants a cop to write all the damn people blowing the stop sign on their corner...till their wife, son, sister and cousin all get tickets.

For every Maka and Steve out there I can give you 10 complaints sitting on my desk regarding marijuana use and sale....all from people and neighborhood groups clambering that I DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

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[WC_lun]

You are seriously comparing LEO's to nazis because they are enforcing drug laws? Really?! Hyperbole much? Illicit drug possession and use is illegal. Therefore if a person posseses or uses drugs they knowingly run the risk of arrest. Even if your accusations of the government supplying those drugs are true, it does not change that the user knows that it is illegal. It is called personal responsibility. To ask LEOs to not uphold the law is to remove that personal responsibility by frankly giving LEO too much power. They enforce the laws as written. They do not, and should not, decide which laws to enforce. If you don't like the laws then change them, but don't blame LEOs for doing thier job...a nessecary and usually thankless job.

 

[Makalakumu]

The moral contradiction I posted above would seem to undermine the reasoning behind the arrest of any drug user or dealer. How can the government ship it in and protect the producers AND arrest people for using the product?

 

[Tgace]

The moral contradiction I posted above would seem to undermine the reasoning behind the arrest of any drug user or dealer. How can the government ship it in and protect the producers AND arrest people for using the product?

New York State is not...and I enforce HER laws.

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[WC_lun]

So Makalakumu, your solution is to have law enforcement starting to pick and choose which laws to enforce? To me, that doesn't seem to make much sense.

 

[Makalakumu]

New York State is not...and I enforce HER laws.

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Is it really a states rights issue? You know the Fed drives these policies...

 

[Makalakumu]

So Makalakumu, your solution is to have law enforcement starting to pick and choose which laws to enforce? To me, that doesn't seem to make much sense.

I can't even begin to tell a LEO what they should do. I know I'd probably be a terrible cop. this is simply something to think about. I think that it eventually circles around to the principles we say we believe in. The fewer contradictions, the better, IMO.

On the whole, I prefer far fewer laws and more freedom.

 

[Tgace]

Is it really a states rights issue? You know the Fed drives these policies...

I don't charge federal law..

And since its a state by state issue with legalization.....

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[Steve]

Why then we "wouldn't be doing our jobs" of course.

Same old same old in this job. Everyone wants a cop to write all the damn people blowing the stop sign on their corner...till their wife, son, sister and cousin all get tickets.

For every Maka and Steve out there I can give you 10 complaints sitting on my desk regarding marijuana use and sale....all from people and neighborhood groups clambering that I DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

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Okay. Once again, wait a minute. I've never complained about you doing your job. I have pointed out, as you have also acknowledged, that enforcement of the laws regarding weed is arbitrary and inconsistent from cop to cop and department to department.

I see crime prevention as being a simple function of leadership within the department, number of police on the street, funding of that department, regional emphasis and a collection of sensible laws. Monkey with any one of those and things can go a little bit South.

So, when I see five State Patrol within a 10 mile stretch of Washington Hwy, I don't have a problem with it.

I hope this doesn't come off as sounding defensive. While I think that the LAW regarding weed is counterproductive, I have no issue at all with cops or law enforcement in general. I'm not anti-cop in any way. Quite the opposite.

 

[Steve]

I don't charge federal law..

And since its a state by state issue with legalization.....

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Not exactly true. This is why the DEA will occasionally get a hard on and raid medicinal marijuana stores and suppliers in areas where it's been legalized on a local/State level.

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2011/11/breaking_dea_raiding_medical-m.php

 

[zDom]

Random thoughts in response to the comments since my last post:

No, I never felt guilty about breaking the law by possessing or using pot at that age.

But I had a lot of growing up to do. I also didn't feel guilty about driving like a maniac.


Regarding enforcement, here are the two encounters I had with The Law:

It was the early 1980s, right before Nancy Reagan's "Just Say NO."

My friend and I were on our way to Disneyland with six joints rolled up but hadn't smoked any yet. I was driving too fast on a curve when a vehicle coming the other way "straightened the curve" by crossing the centerline by about two feet (it was the 1980s, so it was a HUGE square grill facing my poor little Pinto).

I jerked the wheel to the right, hit the gravel shoulder and was heading toward a fence and trees, so I jerked the wheel back to the left — and saw a SUV coming. As I was almost at right angles to the roadway, I turned a bit more left to try to enter a side street in the hopes that the SUV would go behind me ... but he also swerved to HIS right.

My Pinto hit the rear driver side door with my passenger side headlamp, denting his door and totaling my Pinto.

With fluids leaking out of the Pinto, we jumped out in a panic.

The other driver was cussing me, I was apologizing, and the cops showed up.

He looked over the scene while my friend assured me had gathered all the joints up.

So the cop walks over and says, "So how much marijuana do you have?"

"Marijuana I don't have any marijuana sir!" I white-lied. (I didn't have any... it was my friend's ...)

"Oh really?" he said and opened his hand in front of me to show me the one joint my friend did NOT gather up in his haste to evacuate the vehicle.

"Um.. ah... OK. Yes," I said. "We did have a joint.. But that was not a factor in this accident! Look at my eyes: we haven't smoked ANY yet!"

He nodded (it was the truth; we hadn't smoked any yet so we didn't have stoned eyes or any smell on us) ....

and HANDED ME THE JOINT.

I thought it was a trap so I made a big show of breaking it in half and tossing it over a fence. In hindsight, I should have said "Thank you, sir" and put it in my pocket


The second encounter was when I took dad's station wagon with three of my buddies up into new subdivision (streets and curbs, no homes yet) to park and smoke pot.

We were very high when we spotted headlights coming into the subdivision. Because we were young and high, we thought it would be a good idea to jump in the vehicle and drive away.

So I ran around the back of the car, jumped behind the wheel and remembered I had left the keys on the roof over the passenger seat.

So we all jumped out like a Chinese fire drill to find the keys ... and about that time, the headlights and spotlight hit us.

In hindsight, they must have paused to wipe laughter tears from their eyes and put on their Cop Faces.

"Whatcha doin' out here?" they asked.

"Oh, nothin' ... hanging out..talking..." we answered.

"Can I see your license and registration" they asked.

At that moment I realized that the car's registration was in the glovebox ... where we had tossed the sandwich bag with marijuana after rolling up the joint.

Being young, stupid and high and not realizing that NOT producing registration would be a much bigger problem that being caught with a bag of weed, I handed him my license and said, "I don't think I have the registration with me, sir..."

My friend said, "Sure you do: its probably in the glovebox!"

So I opened the passenger door, reached in the glovebox while the officer shined the light in the box over my shoulder, and slid the envelope with the registration out from under the bag of weed and handed it to him, pretending the bag of weed was invisible.

He looked it over, handed it back and said:

"OK, well you guys need to go somewhere else. There is no reason to be out here. When we see someone parked up here in the dark we can only think they might selling stolen cars or.. smoking dope or something."

We promised, in earnest, to never return there or to any other place like it ever, ever again.




So...what kind of message was law enforcement sending me?



And now, after all these years, my heart tells me:

Running a stop sign is WORSE that smoking weed. Blowing through stop signs KILLS PEOPLE, directly.

Speeding is WORSE that smoking weed. Speeding KILLS people, directly.

And that some laws are SILLY and aren't worth enforcing — and need to be changed. Legislators are NOT doing their jobs and amending the laws of their communities to reflect the principles upon which this country was founded and/or the will of the people when that will does not conflict with the principles of the Constitution.


It isn't the government's business what kind of sex acts my significant other and I enjoy together, for example. Some of them are against the law but people know today those laws contradict the principles of the pursuit of happiness and liberty and today those laws aren't enforced — and rightfully so as it isn't anybody else's business and does not directly affect anyone else's sphere of freedom (Locke's phrase, wasn't it?).

So tell me, those of you who are in law enforcement: since you are so dedicated to following the letter of the law, if you spot someone admits getting a blow job and that is illegal in your state, are you going to cite them? Haul them in? Why do you not pull over each and every driver who exceeds the speed limit?

I suspect for whatever reason you pick and choose which laws you choose to enforce based on your inner convictions.



Now before you whip out the cross and nails and castigate me for actions roughly 30 years ago, let me state that

I respect LEOs with deep respect and admiration.

And I realize that a lot of the people I had associated with because of my involvement with marijuana were criminals — not BECAUSE of marijuana, but were criminals in other ways — but I was hanging with them because of pot. I am so glad to be away from that drug culture and those people.

But I also met and associated with GOOD people who smoke marijuana on a daily basis who did a great job of raising their kids, doing their jobs, who were in every way assets to their community. They aren't criminals and shouldn't be classified as such by our laws or our attitudes.

I probably won't ever get to smoke pot again because my girlfriend doesn't like it and I like her much more than I like pot. But I will continue to speak in favor of liberty and the pursuit of happiness in the hopes that embrace the freedoms our forefathers fought and died for.

I wouldn't expect you Brits to understand. But that's who we Americans are supposed to be and am disturbed that any of my countrymen would be so willing to sacrifice those freedoms for what they believe to be a greater good.

 

[ballen0351]

Not exactly true. This is why the DEA will occasionally get a hard on and raid medicinal marijuana stores and suppliers in areas where it's been legalized on a local/State level.

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2011/11/breaking_dea_raiding_medical-m.php

More to it then just getting a hard on. Most of the time this happens because the clinic is shipping marijuana to states that its still illegal in and they start an investigation in that state and DEA has nationwide jurisdiction so they follow it to the source which ends up being legit clinics out west that violate the laws. We daily intercept packages in the mail or fed ex that have multiple pounds of marijuana shipped from California. They have officers station at the fed ex distribution centers full time.

 

[zDom]

When I was in 7th grade I wanted to be a judge.

I didn't take me long to realize that there is very little justice in the justice system, that it is really all about who knows who and money.

 

[Tgace]

Okay. Once again, wait a minute. I've never complained about you doing your job. I have pointed out, as you have also acknowledged, that enforcement of the laws regarding weed is arbitrary and inconsistent from cop to cop and department to department.

I see crime prevention as being a simple function of leadership within the department, number of police on the street, funding of that department, regional emphasis and a collection of sensible laws. Monkey with any one of those and things can go a little bit South.

So, when I see five State Patrol within a 10 mile stretch of Washington Hwy, I don't have a problem with it.

I hope this doesn't come off as sounding defensive. While I think that the LAW regarding weed is counterproductive, I have no issue at all with cops or law enforcement in general. I'm not anti-cop in any way. Quite the opposite.

I only used your name as an example of one of the pro-legal people on this thread Steve. My point was that I have MANY people calling my desk to complain about their neighbors weed use or sale. They apparently support prohibition and expect me to do something about their problem....

I don't get the impression that you (or Maka) are anti-LE.

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[ballen0351]

When I was in 7th grade I wanted to be a judge.

I didn't take me long to realize that there is very little justice in the justice system, that it is really all about who knows who and money.

So right so why do any of us bother? The sky is falling.

 

[Tgace]

On the cop stories...like I said upthread. In some states like mine simple possession is a violation level offense. I can arrest you but I have to release you after booking and the offense is adjudicated with a fine. If you are caught again within a specific timeframe the penalty increases...

That being said, by NY state law I am not mandated to act on a violation. Just like I don't have to pull you over and ticket you for most traffic infractions. Its what allows us to release you with a warning.

Would you like to stop that practice?

Perhaps the cop didn't want to be bothered with the paperwork...perhaps the PD was short on manpower and he didn't want to be off the road processing a joint arrest.

Don't confuse a cops actions in those situations with a "message" of what we think is more or less important. And don't let discretion used on one instance become an expectation for the same thing on the next. Try telling the cop who stops you for speeding that you want a verbal warning instead of a summons.

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