What's wrong with American Kenpo?

[drop bear]

Ed parker fought/sparred good people?

 

[kuniggety]

Not every black belt wants to be teach.

It's not as simple as them not wanting to teach but rather, as a black belt, they are representative of the art and in a position that they could teach.

 

[Tames D]

It's not as simple as them not wanting to teach but rather, as a black belt, they are representative of the art and in a position that they could teach.

Teaching has nothing to do with representing the art. Good fighting skills represent the art.

 

[Blindside]

Not every black belt wants to be teach.

At our school a black belt was an instructor, and there was something of an apprenticeship as a brown if you wanted to make black. We had some bad *** underbelts who simply weren't interested in being an instructor, so they stayed underbelts.

 

[Mark P]

I do like the idea of looking for critiques of your art and figuring out ways to address them. The usual response from many martial artists is to insist that there are no problems with their art.

That said, the question is kind of broad. As Buka notes, there is plenty of variation between schools.

I've certainly seen plenty of kempo demonstrations that I could provide some severe criticism of, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's a problem with the art - just with how those individuals were displaying it.

It is those severe criticisms that I am looking for. I hear people say things about the self defense techniques being unrealistic due to the attackers just throwing out a punch and standing there. Or Kenpo guys hit themselves and stomp around too much. Things along those lines are what I am going to try and find ways to improve upon. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

[Mark P]

Teaching has nothing to do with representing the art. Good fighting skills represent the art.

I find that when I try and teach someone how to do something it improves my technique.

 

[Mark P]

I'd say the fact that you have to write a thesis is what's wrong with kenpo. Even an oral exam as mentioned by blindside is evidence of a possible problem in my book. I suppose it matters how much weight is placed on an exam or thesis. What if a practitioner barely scraped by on technique but nailed the exam? Fighting arts are about physical performance why try to play it up to something more intellectual that it is not? A lot of fighters fancy themselves intellectuals but the truth is there are many dumb fighters and many intelligent people who can't fight, both attributes would be nice but they are two different disciplines. history is good for an instructor to know if it's factual and true but many arts are guilty of spreading myth and hearsay. If an arts primary purpose is fighting ability than that should be how students are graded. Imagine a gymnast being graded on physical ability and written exam. Perhaps exams have some place in martial arts but I'm skeptical of ma that try to take the intellectual approach, it sounds good in theory but in truth an ape can smash someone to pieces. For self defense ability is much more important than thought and conjecture.

I do think Kenpo loses a lot of students due to the shear volume of stuff they want you to learn in addition to the basic techniques. There are sayings,definitions,pledges,anatomy, and written projects. I have seen many people get to about the purple belt level and realize they didn't want to get a degree.....just learn how to fight. All that being said, every item I have had to learn has related back to the techniques in some way. If I learn a definition of a bracing angle and then see it in a technique that intellectual analysis of Kenpo definitions now has applicablity when someone is trying to kick my ***.

 

[Mark P]

Not every black belt wants to be teach.

Should every black belt be able to teach?

 

[Mark P]

Hi Mark,
So we didn't require a thesis at my kenpo school, but when the question came up on the "oral exam" section of mytest, I did turn in a 5 page document listing the things I thought we could better. That may have extended the duration of my test significantly. I was a kenpo instructor for several years, but eventually left the art because of what I percieve as its shortcomings. In my opinion and in no particular order.

Too much time spent on lengthy memorized techniques, not enough time spent on drills to actually accomplish the flow and checking that is sought. I really like what Zach Whitson did with the his Kenpo Counterpoint work, which eventually morphed into him developing an entire system, the Counterpoint Tactical System. If you can get ahold of it, the Kenpo Counterpoint vid or dvd is well worth your time.

There is a disconnect between sparring and forms and techs. Kenpoists do not look like how they train, generally they look like kickboxers on the sparring floor which is not at all what the forms and techs seem to advocate. When you look at martial arts that spar regularly as part of their training, they look like what their fundamentals advocate. I find a problem when much of the training is focusing on "stone statue" training, that is supposed to be a beginner step, not something you spend 5 years on.

Fantastic response!! I could not agree with you more and that is the primary reason I chose this subject for a thesis. I have always felt like Kenpoists all turned into bad Tae Kwon Do guys once they started sparring. With a background in TKD I sought out Kenpo due to the reputation they had for fast hand techniques. TKD gave me plenty of kicks but my hands and defense against hands were weak. I see a lot of potential in the flow of Kenpo techniques and feel that emphasizing that aspect could improve its viability as an art.

 

[Touch Of Death]

It is those severe criticisms that I am looking for. I hear people say things about the self defense techniques being unrealistic due to the attackers just throwing out a punch and standing there. Or Kenpo guys hit themselves and stomp around too much. Things along those lines are what I am going to try and find ways to improve upon. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I'm a hitter of thyself. I also like to share the wealth.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Fantastic response!! I could not agree with you more and that is the primary reason I chose this subject for a thesis. I have always felt like Kenpoists all turned into bad Tae Kwon Do guys once they started sparring. With a background in TKD I sought out Kenpo due to the reputation they had for fast hand techniques. TKD gave me plenty of kicks but my hands and defense against hands were weak. I see a lot of potential in the flow of Kenpo techniques and feel that emphasizing that aspect could improve its viability as an art.

If you try to use TKD in Kenpo it makes for both Bad TKD, and Bad Kenpo.

 

[Mark P]

If you try to use TKD in Kenpo it makes for both Bad TKD and Bad Kenpo.

Never punch a puncher or kick a kicker. We get nothing done

 

[Touch Of Death]

Never punch a puncher or kick a kicker. We get nothing done

One style will dominate the other (TKD Will win), and the other style is just an impurity.

 

[Mark P]

One style will dominate the other (TKD Will win), and the other style is just an impurity.

Not the only impure thing in my life

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not the only impure thing in my life

If you find yourself wanting to kick the problem, you should stick to TKD.

 

[drop bear]

I do think Kenpo loses a lot of students due to the shear volume of stuff they want you to learn in addition to the basic techniques. There are sayings,definitions,pledges,anatomy, and written projects. I have seen many people get to about the purple belt level and realize they didn't want to get a degree.....just learn how to fight. All that being said, every item I have had to learn has related back to the techniques in some way. If I learn a definition of a bracing angle and then see it in a technique that intellectual analysis of Kenpo definitions now has applicablity when someone is trying to kick my ***.

I am yes and no on the idea of that. The physics can explain why a move works or rationalize its validity when it doesn't.

 

[drop bear]

Never punch a puncher or kick a kicker. We get nothing done

Or eyegouge from your back.

 

[drop bear]

If you try to use TKD in Kenpo it makes for both Bad TKD, and Bad Kenpo.

why would that be? If kempo is so rigid you can't bolt on a concept that might be an issue.

 

[Touch Of Death]

why would that be? If kempo is so rigid you can't bolt on a concept that might be an issue.

TKD is Kicking focused, where as Kenpo is not. I cant make it any plainer. When you think of Kicks as your bread and butter, you are TKD minded. It is good or bad in the real world, it just makes for "Bad" Kenpo.

 

[Tames D]

Should every black belt be able to teach?

I'll answer it with a few questions. Should every pro football player be able to teach? Should every pro boxer be able to teach? Should every MLB player be able to teach? Should every welder be able to teach? Should every plumber be able to teach? Should every NBA player be able to teach? Should every ....