What's the funniest thing you've had to give someone pushups for?

[jobo]

Most of that post is about your attitude problem, rather than any issue with the instructors mentioned.

I dont have an attitude problem, beyond I exspect my self and my k7ds to ge treated with respect, particularly when I'm paying for the priveledge

having k7ds stand with their nose to a wall is nothing short of child abuse, I wouldn't do it to them I'm certainly not having some ma instructor do it.

as for myself, I'm a middle aged adult, I'm not under any circumstances allowing someone to punish me for not paying attention. or indeed punish my kids for the same issshe if they cant keep them engaged with out punishment, they shouldn't be teaching kide

the 10 yo would say " dont you talk to me like that " to any one who tried it, they have been brought up not to accept the aurth9r8ty of random adults, it's a lot safer for them yha5 way

 

[DocWard]

Heck, when I was in the military, we would study for tests by quizzing each other informally, and wrong answers got pushups. Of course, there was the one time studying for the EFMB when a wrong answer meant you had to drink, but that is a different story...

I do recall annoying my new First Sergeant when I was late to a PT formation and in the wrong uniform (I had on a tee shirt from my old unit, a Special Forces unit, instead of the regulation ARMY tee). The First Sergeant commented on it even as I was dropping for pushups. I finished my twenty-five then did three more, shouting "ONE for the Commander, ONE for the First Sergeant, ONE for the Airborne who jump from the sky." I was in a medical company, not Airborne. The First Sergeant was laughing (along with the rest of the formation) while he told me to do more pushups.

I can think of plenty of goofy things I've seen, been given, and gave pushups and other "corrective training" for. Sometimes it was taking in very good humor, other times it wasn't.

I've never instructed martial arts, so I've never given pushups.

 

[dvcochran]

I've seen them used that way, and when done well (I'm not sure how to describe what that means) it works. With cases like that, you're in part just helping the kid burn off some energy so they can pay attention.

I think it has as much to do with the atmosphere of the class as anything. Within the right environment using things like pushups work well. It can't be a directive from a base of frustration. That is just giving some kids what they are looking for. As @Danny T said, you have to set the expectations.

 

[JP3]

I was leading a small group through a form. We got to the point where you're supposed to kiyhap (yell) and normally we'll say "and say 'HAAA!'", but this time I said "say something."

This guy yells, "SOMETHING!"

I had to give him pushups, but I was laughing.

I don't understand why you "had" to give him pushups, if he did precisely what you asked. I'm confused... Students are funny that way.

I had a football player, played defensive line I think, in high school. Joined the TKD class. Bigger guy for as you might expect for a high school lineman. Not terribly athletic, but mass and strength do play their part.

He was tall enough, and had enough wits and quickness to him that he never really felt threatened by anyone kicking at his face. Punches, sure... but in the sport TKD at the time face-punches were insurance verboten so the rules played to his advantage. He get scored upon, then shrug and say, "That wouldn't have hurt anyway."

I asked him one time, "Are you going to tournament fight, or just learn... what?"

"Nah... no tournaments. I just want to learn taekwondo."

"OK," says I, "Then I have to have you have your hands up. These kids aren't strong enough to tap your face with their padded foot to make you understand the why, and having someone bloody your nose for it is apparently frowned upon *I was smiling* by the owner's liability policy carrier... you don't want to have any sort of automatic setting when you want to use it to have your hands down at your sides like a TKD tourney fighter. Not good."

"OK."

"OK? Got it? OK, great"

So, when I'm around him, he's trying to please the guy witht he black belt (I was only 21, but a bit older than him and big enough), but I noticed that when I wasn't around to reinforce/remind him, when he'd move down they'd drop.

Caught him at it once when he didn't see me, "Hey partner... you have your hands down again and we had a deal on that. Just like with everything else, I've got to use pushups as a reminder, so keep 'em up!"

"OK."

Scroll forward a couple weeks and we happened to have some visitors come by my instructors dojang (Rolla, Mo.). Visitors had some high-level competitors with a visiting instructor who were on their way from OKC to St. Louis for some competition or other, stopping by to see my instructor as those guys were old friends. Impromptu sparring class started as these things tend to happen...

The lineman shows up and dresses out and gets into the mix a bit. Does his thing, but... again... has his hands down. Note... he's not been around me in class for a couple weeks. I was gone some for class, he was gone some, maybe we were just missing each other... but he'd regressed all the way back.

Long story short, he ended up sparring this lanky drink of water with lovely, long black hair that she wore in a very loose pony tail, collected at the nape of her neck. Loose below that. She was probably just a couple inches shorter than the guy & I. The problem was, she outranked me... A LOT. Probably started doing poomse in the womb. Anyway, she was just going thrugh the motions with our people, touching here and there... and unless I could slip inside a round kick and catch her with an inner reap to drop the contest to the mat I did NOT want any part of that right then.

She ended up with linman guy and they start, and he does his "I'm a tourney fighter" thing... badly. She's nice to him. "She mentions that his hnds s are low..." I stop to watch more intently. Spidey senses went off, ya might say.

"It's OK. I'm too big. Nobody can get to my face."

I murmur loud enough so the two of them can hear me, "Remember, you & I talked about that a couple weeks back," right about the same time as
she says, "Oh?"

Front leg, Same-leg front kick to low abdomen, snaps up to POWER round kick to the side of his meaty head. Pow-BLAM!

… it rocks his world... it did.

So, when I know he's all good... you can guess the rest of the story.

 

[hoshin1600]

im not sure how i feel about making kids to physical activity as a retribution for something the instructor doesnt like. however as an adult i wouldnt put up with it. i think the practice leads down a path of egotistical hazing on the instructors part. for a martial arts class it serves no purpose but to inflate the instructors ego. now in contrast in the military it serves specific purposes in the psychological development of young men in order to raise their ability to follow orders under severe stress and for the instructor it helps find those recruits who will "crack" under pressure. but for civilian martial arts i dont believe in its use. im sure i could find all kinds of psychological papers that show it is detrimental.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

for a martial arts class it serves no purpose but to inflate the instructors ego

Whether it is a good method or not, it definitely serves more than an egotistical purpose. Unless you think having different kids doing whatever they want is productive for the rest of the group.

 

[hoshin1600]

Whether it is a good method or not, it definitely serves more than an egotistical purpose. Unless you think having different kids doing whatever they want is productive for the rest of the group.

i did say i wasnt sure about the practice with kids, i was talking about adults. if i signed up for a martial art class and was reprimanded and told to do push ups or any activity for that matter as a punishment, if i didnt knock the instructor in the head then walk out, i would just walk out. i wont tolerate being demeaned and thats the way i see this kind of practice. however i will admit i have a vision in my head on the feeling going on at the time and that may be different in other peoples schools. it could be light hearted and fun but but thats not what i am talking about either.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i did say i wasnt sure about the practice with kids, i was talking about adults. if i signed up for a martial art class and was reprimanded and told to do push ups or any activity for that matter as a punishment, if i didnt knock the instructor in the head then walk out, i would just walk out. i wont tolerate being demeaned and thats the way i see this kind of practice. however i will admit i have a vision in my head on the feeling going on at the time and that may be different in other peoples schools. it could be light hearted and fun but but thats not what i am talking about either.

I'm just pointing out that's your perception, which is about what goes on in your head, not what goes on in the instructor's head. It's not something I'd use with adults (I don't recall ever using it with kids, but I probably did), but if I was visiting a school and missed a bit of etiquette and was told to do push-ups, I'd probably just do them. Now, if the instructor seemed to be getting all ego-wrapped about it, I'd probably be more interested in bowing out. As with many things, it really depends how I perceive their intent. If other folks are doing the push-ups and are casual about them (meaning it's a normal way to put consequences to something in a harmless fashion), then I'd have no problem with it.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I don't give physical exercise as a punishment.
I want students to view exercise and physical conditioning as a good thing and I want them to put good effort into doing so. If it is a punishment they will view it as punishment.

I don't give out pushups as punishment, I give them out to help the student to remember how to act properly in class. For example; if a student is not paying attention or mucking around when I am giving instructions, I may give them pushups so that they will remember to be more attentive in the future.

 

[skribs]

I don't understand why you "had" to give him pushups, if he did precisely what you asked. I'm confused... Students are funny that way.

There's a discussion I was having with a guy at work about swear words. We teach kids not to swear at all, because kids don't know when it is and isn't appropriate to swear. Just like with learning anything, you learn the rules before you learn the exceptions.

In music, you learn which notes are in a scale before you learn when to play the notes that are not in the scale. Playing notes out of scale on purpose sounds good, but playing notes out of scale because you have no idea what you're doing sounds horrible. In martial arts, you learn the rules of your techniques, and then you learn when to break them. As a humorous recent example, in sparring the other day, there was a girl who accidentally kicked a couple of guys in the groin. I heard their complaints before I sparred her. So I fought her with my hands locked about six inches in front of my groin. My Master thought this was hilarious, and it turned out to be effective because she kept kicking low. In any other situation, letting my hands hang down instead of keeping them by my head would have gotten me in trouble (both with the Master, and with my partner kicking me in the face). So the "rule" of keeping my hands up was broken, but broken intentionally and with great effect. In another situation, I've seen a kid who was too lazy to keep his hands up, got kicked in the face like 14 times in one round. He broke the rule unintentionally and paid the price.

Coming back to this story, this guy knew the right timing of being a smart aleck. Kids don't. So the 8 and 10 year old that were watching him needed to see him get the pushups for what he did.

 

[skribs]

I think it has as much to do with the atmosphere of the class as anything. Within the right environment using things like pushups work well. It can't be a directive from a base of frustration. That is just giving some kids what they are looking for. As @Danny T said, you have to set the expectations.

This is one thing my Master has said - I can't give pushups without setting the expectation.

The students I most often give pushups to are:

• My parents
• My friends

One of the funnier examples was when I was starting my internship as a blue belt (because our old instructor quit and everyone higher ranking than me was unable to commit to the full class schedule), I was leading warmups in the beginner class. There was a 2nd degree black belt who was taking the class as a supplemental class to get ready for her 3rd degree.

I was leading the intermediate kicks, in which there's a combo that is similar - but slightly different - to the advanced kicks we use at blue belt. The first two kicks are the same, but the intermediate combo has a punch at the end, while the advanced combo has a third kick. I started on the third kick, stopped myself, and threw the punch. Nobody else really noticed, but this black belt knew exactly what I did and started laughing at me.

I asked her "I'm not sure how this works, because I'm in charge, but you're a black belt. Can I give you pushups?"

 

[dvcochran]

i did say i wasnt sure about the practice with kids, i was talking about adults. if i signed up for a martial art class and was reprimanded and told to do push ups or any activity for that matter as a punishment, if i didnt knock the instructor in the head then walk out, i would just walk out. i wont tolerate being demeaned and thats the way i see this kind of practice. however i will admit i have a vision in my head on the feeling going on at the time and that may be different in other peoples schools. it could be light hearted and fun but but thats not what i am talking about either.

So lets frame a scenario. You are any one of theses: school owner, head instructor, assistant instructor, class leader. The class is a mix of adults and children ranging in age for 8 years old to 30 years old and belt levels from green to black. A total of 15 people, 10 being below the age of 16. Your curriculum is open and everyone is doing the same things in practice. Lets say three of the kids are disrupting class to mild levels at different times for different things and it is apparent they are feeding off each other actions. How would you handle the situation?

 

[hoshin1600]

So lets frame a scenario. You are any one of theses: school owner, head instructor, assistant instructor, class leader. The class is a mix of adults and children ranging in age for 8 years old to 30 years old and belt levels from green to black. A total of 15 people, 10 being below the age of 16. Your curriculum is open and everyone is doing the same things in practice. Lets say three of the kids are disrupting class to mild levels at different times for different things and it is apparent they are feeding off each other actions. How would you handle the situation?

again i wasnt talking about kids and to be honest i am not sure how i feel about it with kids. however i will answer your question. my first "go to" is to walk over to the lead disruption maker and in a light hearted tone say "Johnny, you be my partner" i would then move to the next offender. each time i push them in what ever we were doing harder then what they were getting from classmates. it forces them to focus. i pull him out of the situation and mind set that was escalating. for unacceptable behavior i have given kids time outs in the lobby or sat them down in the lobby and said they have to stay there and explain to their parents why they were there and not participating in the class.
everything depends on age.
i have been teaching a pretty long time and i will admit when i was young i would hand out punishment like it was going out of style and i have also seen others take it to levels that would be called hazing. at the time i thought nothing about it. being older now i am much more mellow in how i deal with others unless something really gets me angry. i see things differently now and i dont like the discipline/ punishment method. i have seen the results on young and up and coming instructors and how they use it to inflate their sense of power over a class.
if someones school or business model depends on it, well so be it. its not my place to try and change them. its just not for me. some parents may want that sense of discipline for their ADHD Johnny. not for me.

 

[Buka]

So lets frame a scenario. You are any one of theses: school owner, head instructor, assistant instructor, class leader. The class is a mix of adults and children ranging in age for 8 years old to 30 years old and belt levels from green to black. A total of 15 people, 10 being below the age of 16. Your curriculum is open and everyone is doing the same things in practice. Lets say three of the kids are disrupting class to mild levels at different times for different things and it is apparent they are feeding off each other actions. How would you handle the situation?

I don't have any experience in this so I'm pretty much talking out of my backside.
I've never actually had anyone disrupt a class. Not someone IN class, anyway. Couple outsiders, but they went into the dumpster.

I'm not sure I'd know what to do. Beat them to death with their parents maybe? Can you do that?

 

[dvcochran]

again i wasnt talking about kids and to be honest i am not sure how i feel about it with kids. however i will answer your question. my first "go to" is to walk over to the lead disruption maker and in a light hearted tone say "Johnny, you be my partner" i would then move to the next offender. each time i push them in what ever we were doing harder then what they were getting from classmates. it forces them to focus. i pull him out of the situation and mind set that was escalating. for unacceptable behavior i have given kids time outs in the lobby or sat them down in the lobby and said they have to stay there and explain to their parents why they were there and not participating in the class.
everything depends on age.
i have been teaching a pretty long time and i will admit when i was young i would hand out punishment like it was going out of style and i have also seen others take it to levels that would be called hazing. at the time i thought nothing about it. being older now i am much more mellow in how i deal with others unless something really gets me angry. i see things differently now and i dont like the discipline/ punishment method. i have seen the results on young and up and coming instructors and how they use it to inflate their sense of power over a class.
if someones school or business model depends on it, well so be it. its not my place to try and change them. its just not for me. some parents may want that sense of discipline for their ADHD Johnny. not for me.

Agree. We have a few borderline kids that can be very trying. One of our older instructor in particular just does not do well with kids like that. It is intriguing to see how easily some people handle kids, or most any situation for that matter. True confidence makes up for weaknesses in other areas. Sometimes I think kids have a sixth sense about things like that.

 

[skribs]

again i wasnt talking about kids and to be honest i am not sure how i feel about it with kids. however i will answer your question. my first "go to" is to walk over to the lead disruption maker and in a light hearted tone say "Johnny, you be my partner" i would then move to the next offender. each time i push them in what ever we were doing harder then what they were getting from classmates. it forces them to focus. i pull him out of the situation and mind set that was escalating. for unacceptable behavior i have given kids time outs in the lobby or sat them down in the lobby and said they have to stay there and explain to their parents why they were there and not participating in the class.
everything depends on age.
i have been teaching a pretty long time and i will admit when i was young i would hand out punishment like it was going out of style and i have also seen others take it to levels that would be called hazing. at the time i thought nothing about it. being older now i am much more mellow in how i deal with others unless something really gets me angry. i see things differently now and i dont like the discipline/ punishment method. i have seen the results on young and up and coming instructors and how they use it to inflate their sense of power over a class.
if someones school or business model depends on it, well so be it. its not my place to try and change them. its just not for me. some parents may want that sense of discipline for their ADHD Johnny. not for me.

It's kind of a progression for us. It depends on a combination of the severity of what they're doing, along with how many times they've been warned. There's a difference between someone just not focusing, someone being a distraction, someone being disrespectful, and someone being dangerous.

• If a kid is just fidgeting in line, tell him to stand still. If he keeps fidgeting, but it isn't bothering anyone else, just ignore it, because nagging him is more distracting than the fidgeting.
• However, if his fidgeting is really bad, to the point where he's elbowing the person behind him, or falling over and people have to step over him to get to the line, then you need to be stricter. Sometimes there's an assistant available who can stand in a ready position next to the kid (usually helps) or who can help keep him calmed down, sometimes there isn't. This is where pushups can help burn energy and be a shock to the kid that he needs to focus.
• If he refuses to do the pushups, or if his fidgeting continues and is physically disruptive, that's when the kid gets a timeout.

For us, pushups are somewhere between "warning" and "timeout".

 

[wab25]

I still don't get the distinction here, as to why this guy had to be given push ups.

So I fought her with my hands locked about six inches in front of my groin. My Master thought this was hilarious

So, its ok for you to do something that your instructor thought was hilarious, even though it broke the rules... but he tries the to do something he thinks you will find hilarious and you had give him push ups? Yes, I realize these are totally different situations... a 3rd degree black belt knows the rules, and she was kicking low so the situation was not normal, it was a time to break the rules. This guy was supposed to shout "HAA" but you told him to "shout something." You changed the situation from his normal form to something different. Did you tell him what to shout? Did you tell him what not to shout? So "HAA" was out because you said so, I guess "KIHAP" would be fine, probably "HEEE" or "AYYEEE"... What about "YEE HAAWW?" Is that in the same category as "SOMETHING?"

I was leading the intermediate kicks, in which there's a combo that is similar - but slightly different - to the advanced kicks we use at blue belt. The first two kicks are the same, but the intermediate combo has a punch at the end, while the advanced combo has a third kick. I started on the third kick, stopped myself, and threw the punch. Nobody else really noticed, but this black belt knew exactly what I did and started laughing at me.

I asked her "I'm not sure how this works, because I'm in charge, but you're a black belt. Can I give you pushups?"

Again, why would she need push ups? You screwed up, not her. Why didn't you get the push ups? Is it because she laughed? You can do things that are funny, no problem. You can screw up, no problem. Someone else tries to be funny and you have to hand out push ups. Some one else laughs or giggles and you have to hand out push ups. Or was it because she noticed that you made the mistake? Again, you messed up, you lost focus... and no push ups...

It's kind of a progression for us. It depends on a combination of the severity of what they're doing, along with how many times they've been warned. There's a difference between someone just not focusing, someone being a distraction, someone being disrespectful, and someone being dangerous.

• If a kid is just fidgeting in line, tell him to stand still. If he keeps fidgeting, but it isn't bothering anyone else, just ignore it, because nagging him is more distracting than the fidgeting.
• However, if his fidgeting is really bad, to the point where he's elbowing the person behind him, or falling over and people have to step over him to get to the line, then you need to be stricter. Sometimes there's an assistant available who can stand in a ready position next to the kid (usually helps) or who can help keep him calmed down, sometimes there isn't. This is where pushups can help burn energy and be a shock to the kid that he needs to focus.
• If he refuses to do the pushups, or if his fidgeting continues and is physically disruptive, that's when the kid gets a timeout.

For us, pushups are somewhere between "warning" and "timeout".

The guy in the OP did none of this. He was not fidgiting or elbowing anyone. He was not being disrespectful, distracting or dangerous. He followed directions. He was told not to say "HAAA" like usual. Also, he was not a kid... interesting that if he had been a kid, no push ups.

This is one thing my Master has said - I can't give pushups without setting the expectation.

What expectations are you setting?

• When you screw up, you get push ups... When I screw up I don't. (kicking drill)
• When you lose focus, you get push ups... When I screw up I don't (kicking drill)
• When you do something funny in class, you get push ups... When I do something funny I don't (low hands during sparring)
• When the instructor is vague in his instructions, and you don't guess what he wants, you get push ups.

I certainly don't get this need to hold rank over every one and hand out push ups, just because you can. Again, you were talking about an adult, in an adult class that you were teaching, and you gave vague instructions, for him to do his form in an out of the ordinary way. Its a good thing he didn't have his stripes on the wrong side of his belt while shouting "SOMETHING." You didn't have to give him push ups.

 

[WaterGal]

So lets frame a scenario. You are any one of theses: school owner, head instructor, assistant instructor, class leader. The class is a mix of adults and children ranging in age for 8 years old to 30 years old and belt levels from green to black. A total of 15 people, 10 being below the age of 16. Your curriculum is open and everyone is doing the same things in practice. Lets say three of the kids are disrupting class to mild levels at different times for different things and it is apparent they are feeding off each other actions. How would you handle the situation?

I'm not the person you asked, but, if the kids are disrupting the class, they'd be asked to sit out. Everybody else who was doing what they were supposed to do would be praised for their good focus.

 

[dvcochran]

I'm not the person you asked, but, if the kids are disrupting the class, they'd be asked to sit out. Everybody else who was doing what they were supposed to do would be praised for their good focus.

I hoped everyone would chime in. Thank you. I agree with you approach. There is a point where you cannot praise kids beyond doing what they are supposed to do. Else there would never be a norm.

 

[dvcochran]

It's kind of a progression for us. It depends on a combination of the severity of what they're doing, along with how many times they've been warned. There's a difference between someone just not focusing, someone being a distraction, someone being disrespectful, and someone being dangerous.

• If a kid is just fidgeting in line, tell him to stand still. If he keeps fidgeting, but it isn't bothering anyone else, just ignore it, because nagging him is more distracting than the fidgeting.
• However, if his fidgeting is really bad, to the point where he's elbowing the person behind him, or falling over and people have to step over him to get to the line, then you need to be stricter. Sometimes there's an assistant available who can stand in a ready position next to the kid (usually helps) or who can help keep him calmed down, sometimes there isn't. This is where pushups can help burn energy and be a shock to the kid that he needs to focus.
• If he refuses to do the pushups, or if his fidgeting continues and is physically disruptive, that's when the kid gets a timeout.

For us, pushups are somewhere between "warning" and "timeout".

Question; do you stop class and stand over them while they do their pushups? How exactly do you have the kid to them?
I am genuinely curious.