What would you do?

[Lynne]

My test for 8th gup is on August 25. Wow, time flies and it sneaked up on me.

I have a sheet that details what I need to know for my test.

I haven't been taught two of the kicks that are listed. Also, we (most likely) will be asked to do combinations (such as yup makee with a side punch) and haven't learned those in class. For yellow belt, we drilled off and on for two months on combinations - zero this time around. My test is only a week and two days away.

I've taught myself most of the material from the school DVD and I'm not sure the instructors are aware of that. We have a large school and classes have been very large lately.

There are extra help classes that I can attend free and I can ask for specifics.

What is my responsibility? What should I do? (I shouldn't have to ask my daughter to teach me, do you think?)

Should I just grab one of the senior instructors before class and say, "Hey, I need to know X but haven't been taught these items and my test is next week. Who can instruct me?"

I doubt the owner is aware of the lack of instruction, unless I'm missing something? I'm expecting to learn what I need to know in class.

 

[Kacey]

If you're learning what you need from DVDs, and not from the instructor(s), then something is wrong. You need to talk to an instructor - and possibly (and definitely, if the instructor you speak to doesn't give you a useful response) the school owner - about your concerns. Certainly, anything you need to know for testing would require that you practice outside of class - but you shouldn't have to be self-instructing at your rank.

Often when there are many instructors, the instruction is not as organized/coordinated as it would be with fewer instructors. It sounds like the instructors are not coordinating their instruction to ensure that all requirements are being taught in class - and that is a cause for concern.

In addition, I hold pretestings, and don't let students test if they can't demonstrate what they are supposed to know for testing - testing because it's time, rather than because students are ready, is not appropriate, at least IMHO.

 

[Blindside]

What Kacey said. If you don't know the material you shouldn't be testing. If they ask you to test, tell them you don't know the material, or simply grab one and say "I need X to test." It is your journey, make sure you are getting the instruction you need.

Lamont

 

[Lynne]

If you're learning what you need from DVDs, and not from the instructor(s), then something is wrong. You need to talk to an instructor - and possibly (and definitely, if the instructor you speak to doesn't give you a useful response) the school owner - about your concerns. Certainly, anything you need to know for testing would require that you practice outside of class - but you shouldn't have to be self-instructing at your rank.

Often when there are many instructors, the instruction is not as organized/coordinated as it would be with fewer instructors. It sounds like the instructors are not coordinating their instruction to ensure that all requirements are being taught in class - and that is a cause for concern.

In addition, I hold pretestings, and don't let students test if they can't demonstrate what they are supposed to know for testing - testing because it's time, rather than because students are ready, is not appropriate, at least IMHO.

I don't know what's going on.

We have a weekly curriculum we follow. I have taught myself the form, back stance, yup makee, rear leg side kick, inside/outside block, side punch, and side stance.

I haven't learned the jump side kick yet or the jump front kick without the fake. I also expect we'll be asked to do some fairly tricky combinations that normally take practice and coordination (yup makee with a side punch). I've watched the tests.

It's weird - it's as if the instructors expected me to already know the material. I'm one of few yellow belts. I go to evening classes and a Saturday morning class. It could be they are doing something different in the morning classes.

Each test is different. One gal tested for her orange belt recently and wasn't tested on all of the required material. I guarantee you I will be expected to know more because I attend more often.

I am going to ask my daughter to teach me what I don't know but I AM going to approach one of the senior instructors. I don't expect to be almost perfect, but I don't want to be sloppy either. I don't expect my jump front kick without the fake to be a thing of beauty, but I expect to at least know what I'm doing.

 

[Lynne]

What Kacey said. If you don't know the material you shouldn't be testing. If they ask you to test, tell them you don't know the material, or simply grab one and say "I need X to test." It is your journey, make sure you are getting the instruction you need.

Lamont

At this level, I can opt out of the test. At orange belt and above, one cannot opt out of testing, spotlights or midterms. The attitude at our school is different than some. "You know what you need to learn and there is no excuse for not knowing it." Although, at my level, I can't completely agree with that. Perhaps that's for higher belts? And I am not in charge of the curriculum.

You're right - I need to be more proactive. The time snuck up on me and I thought, "Ahhh...I don't know such and such."

 

[Blindside]

At this level, I can opt out of the test. At orange belt and above, one cannot opt out of testing, spotlights or midterms.

How often do people fail your tests? 1%? 5%? 10%?

 

[Kacey]

I don't know what's going on.

We have a weekly curriculum we follow. I have taught myself the form, back stance, yup makee, rear leg side kick, inside/outside block, side punch, and side stance.

Then you need to talk to someone. You should not be self-instructing, especially not at your rank; it's much too easy to learn something incorrectly when learning by video, to practice something wrong, and to cause yourself problems.

I haven't learned the jump side kick yet or the jump front kick without the fake. I also expect we'll be asked to do some fairly tricky combinations that normally take practice and coordination (yup makee with a side punch). I've watched the tests.

Then these things should be being taught in class.

It's weird - it's as if the instructors expected me to already know the material. I'm one of few yellow belts. I go to evening classes and a Saturday morning class. It could be they are doing something different in the morning classes.

Then something is wrong. The instructors should be asking you to perform things, and then correcting the things you know, and teaching the things you don't. Weekly curricula are all well and good - but what happens when people are sick, or otherwise unable to attend? Do they never learn what was on the curriculum for that class? What about people with scheduling problems, who can't attend the 3rd class you attend, or who don't want (or can't afford) to join the BB club? This is a systems issue that needs to be addressed from the top down, because it's not being addressed from the bottom up - and your job as students is to learn - just as their jobs as instructors is to teach.

Each test is different. One gal tested for her orange belt recently and wasn't tested on all of the required material. I guarantee you I will be expected to know more because I attend more often.

As an instructor running a testing, I can watch how you do one technique or form, and it will tell me a great deal about your attitude and abilities - I don't necessarily have to see every technique to know whether or not you can do them, and sometimes I won't ask for everything. Sometimes I'll throw in something the students testing don't know, to see how they deal with it. It all depends on what I'm looking for, and how long I have to look for it.

I am going to ask my daughter to teach me what I don't know but I AM going to approach one of the senior instructors. I don't expect to be almost perfect, but I don't want to be sloppy either. I don't expect my jump front kick without the fake to be a thing of beauty, but I expect to at least know what I'm doing.

Your daughter should not be responsible for your primary instruction. That is unfair to both of you. Practicing with you, certainly; providing feedback, yes; those are things that students should be doing with each other - but my students know that they are not allowed to teach other students things they have not been taught in class, largely because they may (a) teach things incorrectly due to lack of understanding; (b) teach things that the other student is not ready for; (c) accidentally cause a bad habit or injury due to teaching something they don't know how to teach; (d) you get the idea (I could go on, but I won't).

Something is wrong at your school. Someone needs to speak to the owner. The longer you wait, the bigger the problem will become - and if you wait for someone else to step up, then you may be waiting for a long time, and the problem will grow - and worse, become status quo. Look at the last quote in my signature before you decide to wait and see.

 

[Lynne]

How often do people fail your tests? 1%? 5%? 10%?

A lot of kids fail.

The first time I tested, everyone passed.

Adults do fail as I have seen it.

It's not unusual for one or two adults, out of say 10, to fail a spotlight (a quiz). The spotlight has to be passed before the student can test for the next spotlight. X number of spotlights have to be passed before the student can test. I would suppose that's how the owner judges whether the student is ready to test. At 8th gup, we begin spotlights.

Students, adult or child, will certainly fail if they cannot break the required boards, I can tell you that for a fact!

Here is something interesting. My daughter tests for 6th gup next week. She has only broken boards during a board-breaking clinic but has to break one to pass her test. I don't know what kick she has to use. But it shouldn't be that hard, right?

I don't know percentages though (of failures).

 

[Lynne]

Then you need to talk to someone. You should not be self-instructing, especially not at your rank; it's much too easy to learn something incorrectly when learning by video, to practice something wrong, and to cause yourself problems.



Then these things should be being taught in class.



Then something is wrong. The instructors should be asking you to perform things, and then correcting the things you know, and teaching the things you don't. Weekly curricula are all well and good - but what happens when people are sick, or otherwise unable to attend? Do they never learn what was on the curriculum for that class? What about people with scheduling problems, who can't attend the 3rd class you attend, or who don't want (or can't afford) to join the BB club? This is a systems issue that needs to be addressed from the top down, because it's not being addressed from the bottom up - and your job as students is to learn - just as their jobs as instructors is to teach.



As an instructor running a testing, I can watch how you do one technique or form, and it will tell me a great deal about your attitude and abilities - I don't necessarily have to see every technique to know whether or not you can do them, and sometimes I won't ask for everything. Sometimes I'll throw in something the students testing don't know, to see how they deal with it. It all depends on what I'm looking for, and how long I have to look for it.



Your daughter should not be responsible for your primary instruction. That is unfair to both of you. Practicing with you, certainly; providing feedback, yes; those are things that students should be doing with each other - but my students know that they are not allowed to teach other students things they have not been taught in class, largely because they may (a) teach things incorrectly due to lack of understanding; (b) teach things that the other student is not ready for; (c) accidentally cause a bad habit or injury due to teaching something they don't know how to teach; (d) you get the idea (I could go on, but I won't).

Something is wrong at your school. Someone needs to speak to the owner. The longer you wait, the bigger the problem will become - and if you wait for someone else to step up, then you may be waiting for a long time, and the problem will grow - and worse, become status quo. Look at the last quote in my signature before you decide to wait and see.

I'm almost thinking of not asking my daughter because it does seem unfair.

That's a smart policy you have of not allowing students to teach other students new material. I can imagine some of the bad habits and just plain wrong moves as I've seen such in class.

Our senior instructor is now managing our other school. He was exemplary and must have been doing much more than I can imagine to keep the curriculum together.

Honestly, I've been doing my new form for 7 weeks and haven't received one word of feedback. That shows that something is wrong. It may be a simple form, but like any form, there is potential for a load of errors. Unless I'm doing it just perfectly. Ha! I'm still trying to perfect my first two basic forms. I'm smart enough to know that I will never get a form perfect.

I'd hate to have a rude awakening next Saturday (25th), "You failed because your form was executed incorrectly here, here and here." Or for any other reason.

Ok. I doubt I will be able to talk to the owner. He is not always there and rarely teaches evenings. But I will talk to one of the seniors. She is basically his assistant and if she sees a problem, she will take care of it. She's not one to let things go.

 

[14 Kempo]

Wow ... I agree with Kacey's comments throughout this thread.

Maybe I missed something, how is it you are testing without having the material? Is the testing strictly on time? How many classes you've attended? Where I come from, the instructor sponsers a student for testing. This means that the instructor knows that the student has all the needed material and performs it to the standards specified for the desired rank. How is it in your school? In Tang Soo Do?

 

[Lynne]

Wow ... I agree with Kacey's comments throughout this thread.

Maybe I missed something, how is it you are testing without having the material? Is the testing strictly on time? How many classes you've attended? Where I come from, the instructor sponsers a student for testing. This means that the instructor knows that the student has all the needed material and performs it to the standards specified for the desired rank. How is it in your school? In Tang Soo Do?

Hey Kempo,

We have a list of requirements for each gup. I am very surprised that my classes have not covered all the requirements this time. I had a lot more to learn for more my yellow belt than my upcoming orange belt. It could be that we aren't going to be tested on all of the requirements this time.

I attend classes two - three times a week. I joined black belt club so that I could attend more than two times a week, the max allowed. I enjoy the training and feel that three classes are much better than two. I've been training for my orange belt 7 weeks. I test on the 25th of this month.

Testing in our school is strictly on time. White and yellow belts test after two months of training per belt. As soon as I joined, I was scheduled for my first test. I understand that yellow and white belts can opt out of testing if they feel they aren't ready. After passing my 9th gup, I was immediately scheduled for my 8th gup. 8th gup and above are scheduled for their spotlights and midterms, depending upon whether they pass each one. They must attend those - can't opt out as far as I know.

Ok - my daughter just told me that one won't be put on the roster (to test) if they're not ready to test. I didn't know that. People still fail though. Instructors do not sponsor a student in our school but evidently they let the owner know if someone isn't ready. Maybe they make recommendations - I don't know.

Also, there are different Tang Soo Do organizations. Mine is the American Tang Soo Do Association. I think a lot of people here belong to the International Tang Soo Do Association or the World Tang Soo Do Association.

I would bet that testing requirements and schedules vary from school-to-school.

 

[14 Kempo]

Hey Kempo,

We have a list of requirements for each gup. I am very surprised that my classes have not covered all the requirements this time. I had a lot more to learn for more my yellow belt than my upcoming orange belt. It could be that we aren't going to be tested on all of the requirements this time.

I attend classes two - three times a week. I joined black belt club so that I could attend more than two times a week, the max allowed. I enjoy the training and feel that three classes are much better than two. I've been training for my orange belt 7 weeks. I test on the 25th of this month.

Testing in our school is strictly on time. White and yellow belts test after two months of training per belt. As soon as I joined, I was scheduled for my first test. I understand that yellow and white belts can opt out of testing if they feel they aren't ready. After passing my 9th gup, I was immediately scheduled for my 8th gup. 8th gup and above are scheduled for their spotlights and midterms, depending upon whether they pass each one. They must attend those - can't opt out as far as I know.

Ok - my daughter just told me that one won't be put on the roster (to test) if they're not ready to test. I didn't know that. People still fail though. Instructors do not sponsor a student in our school but evidently they let the owner know if someone isn't ready. Maybe they make recommendations - I don't know.

Also, there are different Tang Soo Do organizations. Mine is the American Tang Soo Do Association. I think a lot of people here belong to the International Tang Soo Do Association or the World Tang Soo Do Association.

I would bet that testing requirements and schedules vary from school-to-school.

IMO, you are absolutely correct in thinking more is better. I feel the same way. Your more recent comments cover what I was asking. It seems that there is a time limit, but the correct all is that an instructor can say a student isn't ready. I had to ask, we really have no time limits where I train, unless it is a minimum time. Such that from Nidan to Sandan must be a minimum of x years. As with what Kacey already posted, you may want to speak to your instructor and get the required material from him/her. We have that same rule. Get new material from an instructor, then work on it with your peers.

Good luck either way Lynne ... if you test, give it your all and you'll do well.

 

[MBuzzy]

Kacey is dead on as usual...

This definately needs to be taken up with a senior in the school. Anything that you have not been instructed on, you should go to a senior and ask for one on one training....before class, after class, whenever.

This may not be popular or what some people believe, but I always come back to one thing....you are there to learn.....and you are PAYING that that service. If you don't feel that you are getting what you deserve or was promised you, you have a right to take it up with the owner/instructor, whoever. Despite what some organizations will have you believe, they are still a business...and they need you and other students to sustain them.

 

[Carol]

No offense, but this is precisely why I loathe contracts.

Many instructors get a lot less hungry once they have their studenst locked in to long term deals.

 

[seninoniwashi]

I've taught myself most of the material from the school DVD and I'm not sure the instructors are aware of that. We have a large school and classes have been very large lately.

What is my responsibility? What should I do? (I shouldn't have to ask my daughter to teach me, do you think?)

I doubt the owner is aware of the lack of instruction, unless I'm missing something? I'm expecting to learn what I need to know in class.

Unfortunately this is common in larger schools where there are different instructors teaching throughout the week. With a large class it’s easy to get last. I would definitely talk with a senior instructor and let them know what’s going on. I’m sure you’re not the only one. What about those students who don’t have someone who has already been through that portion of the art to help them? If you are going to be tested on something, I believe you should be formally trained on it in class.

 

[seninoniwashi]

Certainly, anything you need to know for testing would require that you practice outside of class - but you shouldn't have to be self-instructing at your rank.

As Kacey said, in the beginning ranks you really shouldn't be getting the majority of your training from DVD and self instruction. This is a good way to injure yourself or build bad form - really important as with all beginning training you're building your foundation. Bad habits once developed can be VERY hard to break.

The DVD should be complimentary to the training class, not the training class complimentary to the DVD.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

What everyone else said. It's your kyo sa nim/sa bom nim's duty to make sure you know the material necessary to pass the test before they allow you to test. Make sure you grab an instructor or, if one isn't available, a senior belt, to teach you.

 

[Lynne]

Thanks everyone for the advice and support.

I discussed this with my daughter and she said, "the instructors have eyes in the back of their head mom. You must be doing the form right or they would have said something."

So, yes, I will grab an instructor or senior member to help me after class to make sure I'm doing the form correctly. If they tell me I'm doing great, I will let you know. I hope I am but I don't know.

Maybe the form is satisfactory but I'm used to our instructors pushing us We can always do better.

 

[Tez3]

Lynne, from what you've written here and in other posts your club seems to be very high pressure. So much testing! I must admit I couldn't cope with that!

Can I ask if you have to pay each time for gradings and test? If you fail do you have to pay to retake?

I'm used to a much more relaxed atmosphere and while gradings do have a bit of tension about them, everyone who grades with us knows they wouldn't be grading if they weren't ready. They have to try their best of course but the grading in many ways is more of a graduation as we have already decided they are ready for their next belt beforehand. If they mess around though or don't try they can receive a lower grade or fail altogether and they do realise that it is still a test in many ways.

 

[Kacey]

Thanks everyone for the advice and support.

I discussed this with my daughter and she said, "the instructors have eyes in the back of their head mom. You must be doing the form right or they would have said something."

At my rank, I can accept that... and also, I watch when my sahbum and other instructors correct other students, and make appropriate changes in my technique - but I have more experience than you. At your rank, you should be getting feedback, both positive and negative. If you are not getting feedback of any type, something is wrong.

So, yes, I will grab an instructor or senior member to help me after class to make sure I'm doing the form correctly. If they tell me I'm doing great, I will let you know. I hope I am but I don't know.

Maybe the form is satisfactory but I'm used to our instructors pushing us We can always do better.

I've been in TKD for 20 years, and there are still plenty of things about my techniques that could be better.

Above and beyond the feedback issue, I have real concerns that you are not being taught what you need to know - you have said that you've taught yourself quite a few things from reference materials... that'd be one thing if you were in some situation where you can only access your instructor(s) rarely, but when you're in class 3 times a week - what are your instructors doing? The downside to self-instruction is that the instructor(s) will think you don't need help... and what will happen when you do, and they don't notice, because they're used to you teaching yourself?