What would you do?

[Lynne]

Lynne, from what you've written here and in other posts your club seems to be very high pressure. So much testing! I must admit I couldn't cope with that!

Can I ask if you have to pay each time for gradings and test? If you fail do you have to pay to retake?

I'm used to a much more relaxed atmosphere and while gradings do have a bit of tension about them, everyone who grades with us knows they wouldn't be grading if they weren't ready. They have to try their best of course but the grading in many ways is more of a graduation as we have already decided they are ready for their next belt beforehand. If they mess around though or don't try they can receive a lower grade or fail altogether and they do realise that it is still a test in many ways.

Let's see...We pay a $25 fee for each test; if we fail, we do not have to pay another fee. The spotlights/midterms require no fee. (I have no clue what Dan tests cost.)

Spotlights and midterms take the same amount of time that a test does, about 60 minutes. The difference is that students are not tested on lower belt material, but current class material. Of course the gup tests include lower belt material.

white belt - yellow belt (10th gup to 9th gup): minimum of two months training

yellow belt - orange belt (9th gup to 8th gup): minimum of two months training

orange belt (8th gup - 7th gup): minimum of three months training - spotlight one month after 8th gup, second spotlight two months after 8th gup, end of third month, TEST for 7th gup

orange belt - green belt (7th gup - 6th gup): same as above, so it takes 6 months to go from orange belt to green belt, providing one passes their spotlights and tests.

Stripes are "received" at orange belt, green belt and red belt levels to indicate passing of spotlights and tests as well as gup rank.

I'm not quite sure how the testing goes at green and red belt levels. As I understand it, one is a green belt for about 9 months, providing all spotlights, midtems and tests are passed. A green belt has three gup levels, 6th, 5th and 4th.

Red belt to black belt takes about 18 months. Red belt has three gup levels, 3rd, 2nd and 1st.

A very committed student in our school will take 3-1/2 years to 4 years to achieve a black belt. Of course it takes longer if they fail. Committed or not, they may fail. If one fails a spotlight, then they will spotlight again the following month. You can see how that will delay testing for the next gup. One can't test for the next gup unless they've passed all of their spotlights.

I would think the spotlight system is a good idea. Master R can assess how his students are doing. We have a large school (in fact, we have two schools) and, I believe, 10 instructors.

The first time I tested, I knew my material and felt confident about my knowledge. I was still nervous though and worried about blanking out, especially on wrist grips and one-step sparring. In fact, at the end of testing, I didn't know whether I'd passed or not. There was no way to be objective about my own performance. I was happy to be told that I did very well

 

[Lynne]

At my rank, I can accept that... and also, I watch when my sahbum and other instructors correct other students, and make appropriate changes in my technique - but I have more experience than you. At your rank, you should be getting feedback, both positive and negative. If you are not getting feedback of any type, something is wrong.



I've been in TKD for 20 years, and there are still plenty of things about my techniques that could be better.

Above and beyond the feedback issue, I have real concerns that you are not being taught what you need to know - you have said that you've taught yourself quite a few things from reference materials... that'd be one thing if you were in some situation where you can only access your instructor(s) rarely, but when you're in class 3 times a week - what are your instructors doing? The downside to self-instruction is that the instructor(s) will think you don't need help... and what will happen when you do, and they don't notice, because they're used to you teaching yourself?

All very good points, Kacey, and much for me to think about.

 

[Tez3]

My rusty arithmetic tells me that it's about £14 for a test which is quite cheap but if you have two schools going through gradings which are compulsory and at set times that is going to bring in a fair sum!
Theres still so much testing though! It must seem at times that all you are doing is studying for tests? It does seem to be a bit of a conveyor belt. I really do agree with everything Kacey has written, things don't seem to be right.

 

[Lynne]

My rusty arithmetic tells me that it's about £14 for a test which is quite cheap but if you have two schools going through gradings which are compulsory and at set times that is going to bring in a fair sum!
Theres still so much testing though! It must seem at times that all you are doing is studying for tests? It does seem to be a bit of a conveyor belt. I really do agree with everything Kacey has written, things don't seem to be right.

Is the testing really unusual? I tend to think they are organized and it gives the owner a chance to evaluate students (otherwise, he wouldn't know how he student is progressing).

Not everyone passes their tests and they sure won't be promoted until they have mastered the basic concepts for that particular belt.

 

[Tez3]

Is the testing really unusual? I tend to think they are organized and it gives the owner a chance to evaluate students (otherwise, he wouldn't know how he student is progressing).

Not everyone passes their tests and they sure won't be promoted until they have mastered the basic concepts for that particular belt.

To be honest yes I think it is, I've friends who run various clubs and have had experience of a few clubs myself ( we get invited to train with others a lot as my instructor has a lot of good friends doing a lot of different styles plus we sell martial arts equipment so visit a lot of others to do demos of it) and the pattern is nearly always the same whether TKD, TSD or karate. Your first grading is usually about 3 months after you join then after that at approx four month intervals until you get to what is considered a senior grade where different time scales come in. However you usually only grade if your instructor thinks you're ready.Instructors should be able to tell whether you are ready without the strain of taking tests. The times given is usually the least amount of time you can have between gradings. I know of no clubs that have tests in the way you do.. I've known people going for higher grades have a pregrade but that usually is all.

 

[jks9199]

I don't know what's going on.

We have a weekly curriculum we follow. I have taught myself the form, back stance, yup makee, rear leg side kick, inside/outside block, side punch, and side stance.

I haven't learned the jump side kick yet or the jump front kick without the fake. I also expect we'll be asked to do some fairly tricky combinations that normally take practice and coordination (yup makee with a side punch). I've watched the tests.

It's weird - it's as if the instructors expected me to already know the material. I'm one of few yellow belts. I go to evening classes and a Saturday morning class. It could be they are doing something different in the morning classes.

Each test is different. One gal tested for her orange belt recently and wasn't tested on all of the required material. I guarantee you I will be expected to know more because I attend more often.

I am going to ask my daughter to teach me what I don't know but I AM going to approach one of the senior instructors. I don't expect to be almost perfect, but I don't want to be sloppy either. I don't expect my jump front kick without the fake to be a thing of beauty, but I expect to at least know what I'm doing.

Let me try to understand this...

You're paying for class, you're buying their official DVDs, you're paying for belt tests (I expect)...

But they're not teaching you material needed for promotion.

And, apparently, they're not using consistent test criteria OR apparently even following their own curriculum.

So, you're going to ask your daughter, whom I recall as being only slightly ahead of you, to teach you what they're not.

And you're even willing to find excuses for the school...

At the very minimum, you need to have words with the senior instructor. Maybe it's an oversight... But quite honestly, they probably love you as much as the health club I belong to loves me. (I don't make as much use of the membership as I ought to -- which means they're getting my money with little use of their gear...)

 

[jks9199]

Thanks everyone for the advice and support.

I discussed this with my daughter and she said, "the instructors have eyes in the back of their head mom. You must be doing the form right or they would have said something."

So, yes, I will grab an instructor or senior member to help me after class to make sure I'm doing the form correctly. If they tell me I'm doing great, I will let you know. I hope I am but I don't know.

Maybe the form is satisfactory but I'm used to our instructors pushing us We can always do better.

By definition, your form needs improvement. You're a beginner.

Listen to advice given other students and heeding it is fine -- but it's no substitute for actual instruction and correction of YOUR technique. You may or may not be making the same mistake, and some things cannot be sensed from within until you've had sufficient experience.

If my earlier post didn't reveal my feelings, based on your description, let me be plain. At this point, what you're describing is at the very best haphazard and inconsistent instruction. At worst -- you're being ripped off. It reminds me a lot of a program a friend of mine got involved in. He's trained in a TKD variant, and trained for several years in Bando -- but he's inconsistent in his training. He signed a contract with a Korean style school in our area for their "instructor training program." This meant they were putting him in front of the class from day one as an assistant instructor (I've gotta check what color belt they had him wearing...) despite NO training in their particular system! About a month into their training, he broke his arm assisting another "instructor" demonstrate a block... See some problems?

 

[Tez3]

I have to agree with JKS, there seems to be an awful lot not right about it all. Honestly, I've been concerned before this about things you have posted but it would be awful of me to criticise if you are happy with it. I teach TSD to the childrens classes, I graded black belt in TSD three years ago, I only teach one adult TSD and teach myself whatever Hyungs I fancy out of the book, many are close variations on the Wado Ryu katas I have done before and graded on. I do it for my enjoyment as I don't wish to grade any further. I like finding the Bunkai in the hyungs (to mix languages).My main training these days is MMA.

My Tang Soo Do training was fairly formal but relaxed, my Wado training more formal but again still relaxed. We didn't need to be tested because our instructors knew exactly where we were in our training and therefore knew when we were ready for grading. We covered the syllabus but were still given more information and techniques to help us plus we regularly covered basics. In both styles we were graded by the 'owner' of the association who didn't need to know where we were as he trusted his instructors to put people forward who were ready to grade and he could see from his own eyes in the grading how we did. Incidentally all gradings I have done including two TKD ones years ago have lasted well over the hour, most are three hours. My brown belt (Wado - there are 3 brown belts in Wado) grading lasted half a day each. I didn't do my black belt with Wado but my TSD black belt grading lasted for hours and went through 3 different classes I had to teach on as well as spar with the senior class.

 

[Lynne]

Thanks for the input JKS and Tez.

Alright folks, I talked with one of the senior instructors today. I told her I had learned the form from the school DVD and that I'd received zero feedback on my form in the seven weeks I've been doing it. I also expressed my "what-if-concerns," namely, that I could be doing something fundamentally wrong and might fail my test.

She said that the instructors are supposed to give us at least three corrections on our forms each class, no matter how beautifully one might be doing them. So, she's going to bring up the matter in the instructor's meeting next week.

Unfortunately, we didn't do forms today but we did do blocking and kicking drills and I DID receive correction so I'm very happy about that.

Most importantly, to be fair to my instructors (not making excuses), my daughter says she remembers an instructor asking me right after I got my yellow belt if I knew the new form. My daughter told me I said, "Yes sir, I know the form from the DVD and my daughter has been helping me with the back stance." (Something to that effect.) If she said I said that, then I did!

It appears I'm doing the kicks and blocks correctly for my current belt level. I received some correction today but I'm doing the fundamentals correctly.

I did ask about the jump side kick as it is listed as a requirement. The senior instructor mentioned the side kick in relation to running and side-kicking the focus pads versus doing a side jump kick from a fighting stance. I'm not required to know the side jump kick from a stationary stance.

I asked about the jump front kick without the fake and was told I wouldn't be tested on that until green belt.

I have seen people tested on the jump side kick at yellow belt level. It was in the curriculum at that time.

We are not tested on material that hasn't been covered in the curriculum, except for combinations.

I'm still nervous about the form. I'm going on Tuesday and Thursday of next week. Tuesday night, I need to know something. I hate to interrupt instructors, but I am going to tell my instructor I'm testing Saturday and I need to know if I'm doing my form correctly. (If there is something fundamentally wrong, I will have to decide whether I can correct it by Saturday (test date)).

I'm going to go and watch the DVD again right now.

 

[Kacey]

Alright folks, I talked with one of the senior instructors today. I told her I had learned the form from the school DVD and that I'd received zero feedback on my form in the seven weeks I've been doing it. I also expressed my "what-if-concerns," namely, that I could be doing something fundamentally wrong and might fail my test.

Good for you!

She said that the instructors are supposed to give us at least three corrections on our forms each class, no matter how beautifully one might be doing them. So, she's going to bring up the matter in the instructor's meeting next week.

I'm an instructor. I don't have a rule about how many times I talk to my students - but I do talk to every student every class, both about things they do correctly and things they can improve. I realize that your classes are bigger than mine - but if they're so big that they have to have this rule, they're too big - or the instructors aren't paying proper attention - or both.

Unfortunately, we didn't do forms today but we did do blocking and kicking drills and I DID receive correction so I'm very happy about that.

Most importantly, to be fair to my instructors (not making excuses), my daughter says she remembers an instructor asking me right after I got my yellow belt if I knew the new form. My daughter told me I said, "Yes sir, I know the form from the DVD and my daughter has been helping me with the back stance." (Something to that effect.) If she said I said that, then I did!

Lynne, I've got to say, that is an excuse - and not a good one, either. That is an excuse from the instructor for not giving you the attention you deserve. I don't care what my students say they know - I need to see it, and I need to comment on it, every class. Period... because I cannot count the number of times students have told me they knew something, and been wrong. And even if they know it, there's always something to improve. I worked out with my sahbum today - and he found plenty of things I could improve - after 20 years as his student, there are still things to improve, no matter how correctly I think I'm doing them... and his sahbum still corrects him, too. I realize that you and your daughter are happy here - but I strongly suggest you go visit a few other classes, if you can, and talk to other students - not affiliated with this school - and see if things are done differently.

It appears I'm doing the kicks and blocks correctly for my current belt level. I received some correction today but I'm doing the fundamentals correctly.

So it's been... what... 7 weeks? And you finally got some feedback? And that's okay with you? I have to ask - was this before or after you talked to one of the senior instructors?

When my students are performing at the appropriate level to test before the testing, I increase the difficulty of the technique - I don't let them stagnate where they are. So they get to testing better than the testing requirements... that's a good thing, and I'm all for it. My job as an instructor is to start where you are, and take you as far as you can go - not to stop at a level below what you can be doing now just because the testing requirements say you're good enough for now - that just means that you're practicing and ingraining something you're going to have change later, that you could be changing now. Why is that okay with you?

I did ask about the jump side kick as it is listed as a requirement. The senior instructor mentioned the side kick in relation to running and side-kicking the focus pads versus doing a side jump kick from a fighting stance. I'm not required to know the side jump kick from a stationary stance.

I know this has been discussed before - but I always teach the standing variation of a kick before anything else. Jump kicks look cool, and they're fun - but you have to be able to do the kick, correctly, standing, before you can do it correctly jumping.

I asked about the jump front kick without the fake and was told I wouldn't be tested on that until green belt.

I have seen people tested on the jump side kick at yellow belt level. It was in the curriculum at that time.

Well, if the instructors know the test material, you're okay... but that's a rotten reason to not show it to you when you've asked in that context.

We are not tested on material that hasn't been covered in the curriculum, except for combinations.

If this is the case, and you have all these "spotlights" you're supposed to pass, then you shouldn't be nervous... unless you don't believe you really met the spotlights, in which case you're back where you started.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, Lynne, and I realize you're happy where you are... but it sounds to me like some things are wrong with instructional system.

 

[blackbeltchick]

being a new black belt myself and having gone through the testing process just this month, I can totally understand your hesitation and frustration. I would definitely talk to one of the instructors to grt private lessons on your own time to make sure you got your stuff together.

If your instructor did not feel you were ready to test he/she would not have given you the chance to test.

Have faith \in yourself!!!!
Good luck

 

[jks9199]

Lynne, I've got to say, that is an excuse - and not a good one, either. That is an excuse from the instructor for not giving you the attention you deserve. I don't care what my students say they know - I need to see it, and I need to comment on it, every class. Period... because I cannot count the number of times students have told me they knew something, and been wrong. And even if they know it, there's always something to improve. I worked out with my sahbum today - and he found plenty of things I could improve - after 20 years as his student, there are still things to improve, no matter how correctly I think I'm doing them... and his sahbum still corrects him, too. I realize that you and your daughter are happy here - but I strongly suggest you go visit a few other classes, if you can, and talk to other students - not affiliated with this school - and see if things are done differently.

I agree; it's an excuse. Even if Lynn said what she says she did - the most that should have been is a clue to the instructor that she REALLY needs to be watched. 'Cause I've seen way too many people miss details and just plain get stuff wrong learning from video. At best -- it means that she "only" needs correction, not taught from scratch.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, Lynne, and I realize you're happy where you are... but it sounds to me like some things are wrong with instructional system.

I have to suspect that the majority of the students are kids... And that this is kid-centered program. But, even allowing for that, I agree. At a minimum, the day-to-day instructors need to be better supervised.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Too many students in a class?

 

[Lynne]

Hi Kacey - no, your response wasn't harsh and no offense taken. Obviously, I've been worried/my intuition was pricked. As a beginner, I can't always know what is right or wrong or questionable. So, I do ask questions.

No, it isn't alright that correction has been minimal over the last few weeks.

I had enjoyed learning basics and building upon them and wondered what happened. I was told that sometimes the instructors get lazy; so, I will be a squeaky wheel if I believe that's happening. I'm serious about my training and I don't want my training to suffer because of someone's laziness.

Well, I did get correction on one of my older forms last night. I didn't get any correction on my highest form. I asked the instructor how I was doing, that I needed to know if I was doing anything fundamentally wrong as I was testing this weekend. He said that all of us (there were three yellow belts in my group) needed to work on our back stance. I asked a few other questions about the form.

I guess my performance of the form is good enough to pass. Yes, this bugs me. I want to improve.

There are some people who don't seem to care about their execution, whether it's a punch, a kick or a form. I can understand that the instructors might almost give up on them. I'm not one of them. And my instructors know it, too. I always give it my all in class.

I did get much needed instruction on my wrist grips last night. Good thing because I was doing a few things wrong/not doing something.

 

[Lynne]

being a new black belt myself and having gone through the testing process just this month, I can totally understand your hesitation and frustration. I would definitely talk to one of the instructors to grt private lessons on your own time to make sure you got your stuff together.

If your instructor did not feel you were ready to test he/she would not have given you the chance to test.

Have faith \in yourself!!!!
Good luck

Congratulations Ms. Cho Dan!!! I admire you very much. Our school held Dan testing this past Saturday. I'm not exactly sure what it's called - if they passed, they get to test officially in October before the Grandmaster and a panel. It was a rough test, almost 5 hours. Physical endurance was a huge part of the test: 20 laps in our huge Dojang (I can barely do 5 at a time), squat thrusts, wall kicks, pushups, crunches, etc., and then repeat! Not to mention all lower belt material and current material. Phew!

I do believe I have it together. I feel confident in my material (I wasn't so sure before but I received some positive comments last night - if you don't get feedback from your instructors you never know how you're doing, right?). Really, I believe that I will do fine. I'm sure to practice my basics every day and I have another class Thursday. A big thing with me is growth and being pushed though. I didn't see a lot of that this time. It is true that orange belt material is not as hard as yellow belt material, in my humble opinion. Still...

Thanks again for the encouragement and congratulations. Are you going work for your E Dan?

 

[Lynne]

I agree; it's an excuse. Even if Lynn said what she says she did - the most that should have been is a clue to the instructor that she REALLY needs to be watched. 'Cause I've seen way too many people miss details and just plain get stuff wrong learning from video. At best -- it means that she "only" needs correction, not taught from scratch.




I have to suspect that the majority of the students are kids... And that this is kid-centered program. But, even allowing for that, I agree. At a minimum, the day-to-day instructors need to be better supervised.

I am going to be that squeaky wheel. I respect and honor my instructors but I'm not going to be left behind - that's for the people who don't care and will drop out anyway

I can't say what the kids enrollment is versus the adult enrollment. I attend three times a week, and during the week nights we have about 24-30 in my class (adults). Saturdays is smaller. I would say we definitely have a larger children's enrollment.

I don't believe that our school is only geared toward kids. We do have a large adult enrollment; we compete a lot and have national winners in all cagetories (sparring, forms). We have some that are being trained for Olympic tryouts. Of course, I've only been attending four months but this is my observation.

 

[Lynne]

Too many students in a class?

We have had some very large adult classes lately - 24 - 30 students. Last night, that was the case. We rotate instructors about every 10 - 15 minutes or so. One instructor will teach sparring drills; one will teach forms; one will teach kicking drills; one will teach self-defense, etc.

Last night, we had one instructor for anywhere from 3 - 8 people. If I were to complain, it would be that I could not hear the instructor last night over the noise from the other students. He was teaching us a box-step sparring drill and I couldn't hear him. People were counting aloud as they were doing crunches, kihaping when kicking, other instructors were yelling. It was rather loud.