What would you do to a burgular in your home?

[Rich Parsons]

*Dial 1-9-1-1

*Dial 9-1-1

*Barricade and stay on the line with the dispatcher.

In THAT order.

Andy no disrespect to you and others as this is good advice in theory.

But in my application 911 does not inform the police officers of enough information. They spend multiple times asking the same data over and over. They argue with you about your location and other facts.

But if you Call them and then hang up. They will call you back and treat you with much more respect as they now think you are in trouble and someone else forced the phone off.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I figure once they hear the phone drop and then hear " IF YOU COME THROUGH THAT DOOR, I WILL SHOOT!" , over the line, they'll twig that this just got real.

 

[Sukerkin]

That'd do it for me too, if I were in the shoes of the intruder .

 

[MJS]

Andy no disrespect to you and others as this is good advice in theory.

But in my application 911 does not inform the police officers of enough information. They spend multiple times asking the same data over and over. They argue with you about your location and other facts.

But if you Call them and then hang up. They will call you back and treat you with much more respect as they now think you are in trouble and someone else forced the phone off.

Well Rich, with all due respect, I won't take too much offense to this post, as there are some poor dispatchers out there. However, speaking as one for the past 5yrs, I'd like to comment on a few things.

Many times, the repeating of the same questions, is due to the caller not cooperating at all! I've taken countless calls from hysterical people who're talking so fast, not clear and not giving the answers to the questions I need to ask! I'm kinda suprised you mentioned the location, because without that, how can help be sent? Just because info. pops up on the screen, does not mean its right! Again, I've taken many calls and the address is wrong, the phone number is wrong. Getting those 2 bits of info first, is the first step in getting them help!

You really think hanging up is going to get someone there any faster?? LOL, you've got to be kidding me. If the person hangs up on me after saying, just get the cops here, you can bet that I'm still going to ask whats going on. I will not send a cop into a situation without getting as much info as I can, and if it means asking the same question 10 more times, then so be it, because you can bet the cop is going to be asking me. You're worried about getting the cops info. as you said above, yet you encourage people to hang up? Doesnt make sense to me. Hanging up is doing nothing but delaying the process, because I'm calling back. Will I still send a cop? Of course. I will never deny someone help. But, again, its not helping either me or the cops responding.

As for treating people with respect...I don't know about the ones you've dealt with, but I treat every caller in a friendly tone.

As much as people don't want to admit it, the dispatchers are the first ones that are on the scene, so to speak, as they are the ones that are taking the initial call. Sadly, we don't get a quarter of the credit we deserve, as the job is stressful and demanding.

Like people always say about LEOs...don't judge them until you've walked in their shoes. Well Rich, until you've sat and taken calls from people who just walked in and found a family member who killed themselves, from people whos loved ones are having a medical emergency, from people whos child is missing, from people involved in an assault or domestic, likewise, don't judge until you've walked in their shoes!

Mike

 

[MJS]

I figure once they hear the phone drop and then hear " IF YOU COME THROUGH THAT DOOR, I WILL SHOOT!" , over the line, they'll twig that this just got real.

Well, thats fine...just as long as you're prepared to be taken down at gunpoint as well as the bad guy, because the responding officer will not know whos who, until he gets there and sorts things out. And again, dropping the phone isn't really helping anyone. But hey, if thats what you want to do, knock your socks off.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Well, thats fine...just as long as you're prepared to be taken down at gunpoint as well as the bad guy, because the responding officer will not know whos who, until he gets there and sorts things out. And again, dropping the phone isn't really helping anyone. But hey, if thats what you want to do, knock your socks off.

Bear in mind I'm only dropping the phone because someone is attempting to crash my barricade which if the responding officer has been told by the dispatcher that I have barricaded myself, he probably won't do without announcing some form of police presence which upon recognition that it is a police officer, the game becomes I eject the magazine, extract the chambered round, lock open the slide and put the forty-five away from me and then notify the officer I am coming out slowly with my hands leading.

And if the dispatcher is a good dispatcher, the responding officer WILL know who's who because among the first things out of my mouth will be "when the officer arrives, tell him not to shoot the guy with a red lightstick around his neck--that's me".(Yes, some of us have thought this through).

 

[MJS]

Bear in mind I'm only dropping the phone because someone is attempting to crash my barricade which if the responding officer has been told by the dispatcher that I have barricaded myself, he probably won't do without announcing some form of police presence which upon recognition that it is a police officer, the game becomes I eject the magazine, extract the chambered round, lock open the slide and put the forty-five away from me and then notify the officer I am coming out slowly with my hands leading.

And if the dispatcher is a good dispatcher, the responding officer WILL know who's who because among the first things out of my mouth will be "when the officer arrives, tell him not to shoot the guy with a red lightstick around his neck--that's me".

Well, yes, if all this is done, it changes things a bit. This is one of the main reasons why I like to keep people on the phone as long as possible, especially when its a situation like this.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well Rich, with all due respect, I won't take too much offense to this post, as there are some poor dispatchers out there. However, speaking as one for the past 5yrs, I'd like to comment on a few things.

Many times, the repeating of the same questions, is due to the caller not cooperating at all! I've taken countless calls from hysterical people who're talking so fast, not clear and not giving the answers to the questions I need to ask! I'm kinda suprised you mentioned the location, because without that, how can help be sent? Just because info. pops up on the screen, does not mean its right! Again, I've taken many calls and the address is wrong, the phone number is wrong. Getting those 2 bits of info first, is the first step in getting them help!

You really think hanging up is going to get someone there any faster?? LOL, you've got to be kidding me. If the person hangs up on me after saying, just get the cops here, you can bet that I'm still going to ask whats going on. I will not send a cop into a situation without getting as much info as I can, and if it means asking the same question 10 more times, then so be it, because you can bet the cop is going to be asking me. You're worried about getting the cops info. as you said above, yet you encourage people to hang up? Doesnt make sense to me. Hanging up is doing nothing but delaying the process, because I'm calling back. Will I still send a cop? Of course. I will never deny someone help. But, again, its not helping either me or the cops responding.

As for treating people with respect...I don't know about the ones you've dealt with, but I treat every caller in a friendly tone.

As much as people don't want to admit it, the dispatchers are the first ones that are on the scene, so to speak, as they are the ones that are taking the initial call. Sadly, we don't get a quarter of the credit we deserve, as the job is stressful and demanding.

Like people always say about LEOs...don't judge them until you've walked in their shoes. Well Rich, until you've sat and taken calls from people who just walked in and found a family member who killed themselves, from people whos loved ones are having a medical emergency, from people whos child is missing, from people involved in an assault or domestic, likewise, don't judge until you've walked in their shoes!

Mike

Mike,

Devil's night I gave a friend a ride home. My truck was hit. I saw movement. I thought it was a person running out who had run into the side of my truck doing 25 mph. I grabbed the phone and had 911 plugged as I was getting out and started dialing as I was walking around to the passenger side of the truck to see if I could help the person. Then I heard laughter and saw kids running away. I hung up the phone. Before I could get into my vehicle, they had called me back and were very clear and concise. I informed them what had happened and that I found egg on my truck and that no one needed help.

On the other hand, ever other time I have called, in many cases they do not send out anyone or bother to inform the police. I have had to call a second time and they threatened to have me arrested for fake calls. The ex's BF was there at the house threatening to kill me, but as I was a guy, I would not call first. I would only call after.

I have called in my car (* changing towers as I move so I understand location and direction *). I have told them my number is x and my location is y and I am headed in direction z. As I am slow and clear I can hear the disbelief as to why I would be calling them. Just because I handle stress better and when someone is chasing me in a vehicle and or throwing things at from their vehicle I do not freak out, I react. Those at the other end of the phone think it is a fake.

But every time I have or was with someone and they called and hung up, not the average person called back but a specialist. I believe they are better trained they are the people who can read over the phone others.

Yet every time I called directly, including Tuesday morning when I got hit by two deer running out. She asked where I was. I said I am on Fenton Rd (* and I spelled it out using words for letters*) at address 5166. But it may also be called Denton Hill (* and I spelled it out using words for letters *) as the street name changes at the next street north of me. Her reaction was to yell at me. "Don't you know where you are at?". This being the second deer accident in less than three weeks, and this time the deer that did the most damage did not make it and knowing I would have to argue with the insurance company as I had not had a chance to get the first one fixed, I yelled back. "Of course I know where I am. I am trying to give you enough information to let the officer know where I am and or if you are on a map and you do not see one name but the other you will know where I am." Her reply, "I am sorry, if you do not know where you are at, How can I help you. You must stop yelling at me." My reply, "STOP! Get a supervisor and reply the tape. I was calm until you yelled at me. I was calm until you told me I did not know where I was. I was calm until you implied that I was not being cooperative." I gave you the information. I dropped my tone and voice and gave it to her again the same way. She then got it.

I have other examples as well of where from my experience the operators cannot handle someone who has information and or gives it to them in a calm fashion. They do not trust you or respond to your call. They argue with you and yell at you when you were calm.

But every time I get irrational and yell and or hang up, then I seem to get better service.

Like I said about the police conditioning me, so have the 911 operators in my area.


Now, if you say it is otherwise in your area that that is good news.

If you say that it is much better everywhere else, I just happen to live int eh worst place in the country for 911 service I would believe. Why would I believe you?

1) You are in the business I am not. You would have information I would not.

2) I know the people they have to choose from for the jobs around here.

So, like I said no disrespect. I have bed examples in everything I do. Be it interface with the police or with the border patrol or Homeland security or 911.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Well, yes, if all this is done, it changes things a bit. This is one of the main reasons why I like to keep people on the phone as long as possible, especially when its a situation like this.

I understand, but you also understand that my earlier reference was to a door knock that could not be ignored.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Just an aside as I just now noticed your and Sukerkin's posts suggest you thought my dropping the phone was for the benefit of the intruder on the other side of the barricaded door.

No. It was a reference that the dispatcher would hear it drop because I achieve "gun control" by using both hands.

 

[Sukerkin]

I agree about the nature of the Dispatcher's job, Mike. I can also visualise the 'disconnect' between the dispatcher and the responding officers (of whatever service).

From my own experience, many years ago a friend of mine had a psychotropic (don't know if that's the right term) reaction to his drinks whilst we were at a nightclub out in the countryside.

I was trying to walk him home, not easy because he's twice my size, when he collapses in a fit at the roadside, frothing at the mouth and twitching. I wedge his mouth open, trapping his tongue, with a pen I have on me and run back to the nightclub. I have to fast-talk my way past the bouncers to get to the public pay-phone inside (which shows how long ago this was ).

I ring 999, ask for the ambulance service, give my name, address, location and a brief description of the emergency. They tell me a unit will be there in fifteen minutes. I thank them and say I will go back to my friend and stay with him.

I run back the mile up the hill and find ... my friend is gone . I search about for him and he's not crawled off into the woods or gone along the road on his own. A couple nearby (ahem) see my confused perigrinations, ask me if I'm looking for my friend and tell me that a car coming from the club had stopped and picked him up - so I had little choice but wait for the ambulance to show up and confess what had occurred.

I've often thought what the dispatcher and that ambulance crew must've thought of me for, effectively, wasting their time.

Anyhow, wandering now; clearly it's too late to be posting . I just thought it might be illuminating to see how, even in a circumstance that is not home-invasion, confusion can reign supreme.

 

[grydth]

I do not feel my decision to use deadly force in defense of family is expressly or impliedly based on a conclusion that the police or 911 are incompetent or uncaring.

Actually, both in this region are quite good. On very busy nights, a 911 call can be put on hold. I was told this by a 911 operator 6 days ago. There just are not enough staff to immediately address every call.

Is 911 at fault? No.

But by the same token...Sorry, but when my girls' lives are threatened, no I can't hold. Their sole hope of living through the night may be what's its been since the country was founded - their father's ability and willingness to kill a murderous intruder.

I think it unreasonable to expect that police can be everywhere or prevent every crime. Even with a crack organization, there are staffng considerations, other calls coming in, weather, transit time....... and during all of that a bloodthirsty burglar can kill my children.... well, unless I get him (them) first. Hope it never comes to that.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I do not feel my decision to use deadly force in defense of family is expressly or impliedly based on a conclusion that the police or 911 are incompetent or uncaring.

Actually, both in this region are quite good. On very busy nights, a 911 call can be put on hold. I was told this by a 911 operator 6 days ago. There just are not enough staff to immediately address every call.

Is 911 at fault? No.

But by the same token...Sorry, but when my girls' lives are threatened, no I can't hold. Their sole hope of living through the night may be what's its been since the country was founded - their father's ability and willingness to kill a murderous intruder.

I think it unreasonable to expect that police can be everywhere or prevent every crime. Even with a crack organization, there are staffng considerations, other calls coming in, weather, transit time....... and during all of that a bloodthirsty burglar can kill my children.... well, unless I get him (them) first. Hope it never comes to that.

What I was trying to say but put more eloquently.

 

[MJS]

Mike,

Devil's night I gave a friend a ride home. My truck was hit. I saw movement. I thought it was a person running out who had run into the side of my truck doing 25 mph. I grabbed the phone and had 911 plugged as I was getting out and started dialing as I was walking around to the passenger side of the truck to see if I could help the person. Then I heard laughter and saw kids running away. I hung up the phone. Before I could get into my vehicle, they had called me back and were very clear and concise. I informed them what had happened and that I found egg on my truck and that no one needed help.

On the other hand, ever other time I have called, in many cases they do not send out anyone or bother to inform the police. I have had to call a second time and they threatened to have me arrested for fake calls. The ex's BF was there at the house threatening to kill me, but as I was a guy, I would not call first. I would only call after.

I have called in my car (* changing towers as I move so I understand location and direction *). I have told them my number is x and my location is y and I am headed in direction z. As I am slow and clear I can hear the disbelief as to why I would be calling them. Just because I handle stress better and when someone is chasing me in a vehicle and or throwing things at from their vehicle I do not freak out, I react. Those at the other end of the phone think it is a fake.

But every time I have or was with someone and they called and hung up, not the average person called back but a specialist. I believe they are better trained they are the people who can read over the phone others.

Yet every time I called directly, including Tuesday morning when I got hit by two deer running out. She asked where I was. I said I am on Fenton Rd (* and I spelled it out using words for letters*) at address 5166. But it may also be called Denton Hill (* and I spelled it out using words for letters *) as the street name changes at the next street north of me. Her reaction was to yell at me. "Don't you know where you are at?". This being the second deer accident in less than three weeks, and this time the deer that did the most damage did not make it and knowing I would have to argue with the insurance company as I had not had a chance to get the first one fixed, I yelled back. "Of course I know where I am. I am trying to give you enough information to let the officer know where I am and or if you are on a map and you do not see one name but the other you will know where I am." Her reply, "I am sorry, if you do not know where you are at, How can I help you. You must stop yelling at me." My reply, "STOP! Get a supervisor and reply the tape. I was calm until you yelled at me. I was calm until you told me I did not know where I was. I was calm until you implied that I was not being cooperative." I gave you the information. I dropped my tone and voice and gave it to her again the same way. She then got it.

I have other examples as well of where from my experience the operators cannot handle someone who has information and or gives it to them in a calm fashion. They do not trust you or respond to your call. They argue with you and yell at you when you were calm.

But every time I get irrational and yell and or hang up, then I seem to get better service.

Like I said about the police conditioning me, so have the 911 operators in my area.


Now, if you say it is otherwise in your area that that is good news.

If you say that it is much better everywhere else, I just happen to live int eh worst place in the country for 911 service I would believe. Why would I believe you?

1) You are in the business I am not. You would have information I would not.

2) I know the people they have to choose from for the jobs around here.

So, like I said no disrespect. I have bed examples in everything I do. Be it interface with the police or with the border patrol or Homeland security or 911.

Well, after reading this, I have to say I'm sorry that you had the experience that you did. IMHO, the people you dealt with were not professional at all, and that is sad. These people are in the business to help others, and by what you're saying here, they should get another job, because having patience is a huge part of it.

To adress a few more things:

Speaking only for the depts I dispatch for...every 911 call gets a cop. If I took a call from someone who said someone was there making threats to them and I didn't send a cop, I may as well start looking for another job. Poor actions on their part.

As I said, I dispatch for 2 towns, and its crucial to make sure when we ask the location and they say High St., that I ask in Middletown or Portland? Cell phones are worse, especially if the person is not familiar with the area. We do have a GPS screen which gives the general area, but I personally don't like to rely on it 100%, so I'll try to ask for landmarks, businesses in the area, etc., to attempt to get a better location. Nothing sucks more than to take a cell call and the person has no idea where they are. But the dispatcher shouldn't yell at the person.

On another note, you may find this story interesting. A dispatcher took a 911 cell phone call from an elderly male, who sounded very much in distress. He gave his location, said he didn't know how much longer he was going to make it, and then hung up the phone. The caller was in a different town, so the 1st dispatcher contacted the dispatch center in the town where this elderly male was. The 2nd dispatcher then made a few attempts to contact the elderly male, but he (the elderly male) kept hanging up on him. However, he was also stating to the 2nd person that he was sick. The 2nd dispatcher asked him a number of times if he was ok, and the elderly male said yes. The dispatcher did nothing else. Turns out both the elderly male and an elderly friend living with him died.

This dispatcher, who was facing a suspension over this, ended up quitting. He had 17yrs on the job.

Now, if a cell phone call comes in, even if it was dialed by mistake or the phone hangs up, we still call it back to make sure everything is ok. I took one a few weeks ago from a female who said she just got beat up, gave her location and hung up. I attempted to call back, but nobody would answer. I sent a few cops to the general area, as well as contacted the cell phone provider, to see if they could trace the number and give a location as to where this person may be.

It was a prepaid cell phone registered to someone who didnt live in the area, and the cops found nothing. But, I at least covered myself. I've taken calls from people who are calling in a medical. They then tell me that everything is ok, or the person is going to the hospital by private vehicle. I make them say on the taped line, that they don't want an ambulance, but I still send a cop to verify that everything is ok. Its my rear on the line if I didn't and it turns out someone ends up dying.

As I said...there are some good ones and some bad ones. Its too bad that they all can't take their job a bit more serious, considering they're in the business of helping others.

 

[MJS]

I do not feel my decision to use deadly force in defense of family is expressly or impliedly based on a conclusion that the police or 911 are incompetent or uncaring.

Actually, both in this region are quite good. On very busy nights, a 911 call can be put on hold. I was told this by a 911 operator 6 days ago. There just are not enough staff to immediately address every call.

Is 911 at fault? No.

But by the same token...Sorry, but when my girls' lives are threatened, no I can't hold. Their sole hope of living through the night may be what's its been since the country was founded - their father's ability and willingness to kill a murderous intruder.

I think it unreasonable to expect that police can be everywhere or prevent every crime. Even with a crack organization, there are staffng considerations, other calls coming in, weather, transit time....... and during all of that a bloodthirsty burglar can kill my children.... well, unless I get him (them) first. Hope it never comes to that.

Well, I can attest to that. Staffing, both in the dispatch center and at the PD sucks. Where I work, there are 2 call takers and 2 dispatchers, one for PD and the other for medical. Some nights there are 5 people, so that extra call taker comes in handy. So, on a busy night, you have 1 person taking a domestic and the other taking calls for an accident. What about the other 911 lines? Many times, its someone calling in the same accident as the other 20 people passing by, but until the phone is picked up, we don't know that. I've transferred calls to the state police. I like to stay on the line when I transfer a call, to make sure someone picks up. The phone rings endlessly.

I do my best to prioritize the 911 calls. Someone calling 911 because their car was broken into is going to get put on hold so I can answer the next one, as that may be a more serious call.

 

[Sukerkin]

MJS, I just want to thank you for that insight into the job. It's something we all should've been able to infer but I think we're all guilty of not understanding the complexities of another mans job at times :rei:.

 

[MA-Caver]

Bear in mind I'm only dropping the phone because someone is attempting to crash my barricade which if the responding officer has been told by the dispatcher that I have barricaded myself, he probably won't do without announcing some form of police presence which upon recognition that it is a police officer, the game becomes I eject the magazine, extract the chambered round, lock open the slide and put the forty-five away from me and then notify the officer I am coming out slowly with my hands leading.

And if the dispatcher is a good dispatcher, the responding officer WILL know who's who because among the first things out of my mouth will be "when the officer arrives, tell him not to shoot the guy with a red lightstick around his neck--that's me".(Yes, some of us have thought this through).

Somehow Andy I think it'd probably be best that if you've already taken care of the intruder on your own and are now in your safe room with your family and if you haven't hung up on 911 dispatcher then tell them to tell the officer what color shirt you are wearing. When you hear the officer(s) come into the house, yes, do exactly as you described with your weapon but toss it out in to the living room or hall way and drop to your knees (everyone do this in the room) with your hands on your head and just wait.
Am thinking the officer is going to come around the door with his weapon drawn and sees you (and the other occupants) in the room in a submissive posture (oh and you're as far away from the door as your room permits) this will disarm the officer til they speak to you. If the dispatcher has identified you as the homeowner wearing the purple pajamas then the officer will at least have an idea who you are. Do exactly what he says and it should be fine.
Other LEO's here please chime in if this is a good method or if there's something better?
Just my thoughts to what I would do after the deed. However I doubt that I can get my parents to kneel as they're elderly ... so perhaps just sit them on the couch and I kneel beside them hoping for the best.

 

[kidswarrior]

As much as people don't want to admit it, the dispatchers are the first ones that are on the scene, so to speak, as they are the ones that are taking the initial call. Sadly, we don't get a quarter of the credit we deserve, as the job is stressful and demanding.

...until you've sat and taken calls from people who just walked in and found a family member who killed themselves, from people whos loved ones are having a medical emergency, from people whos child is missing, from people involved in an assault or domestic, likewise, don't judge until you've walked in their shoes!

Mike

I'll admit it, and say that my experience with 911 dispatch has always been very positive. It's true that I have a lot of interaction with LEO's and PO's in the course of a work week, so maybe have come to know how to give the info they're looking for...or, maybe the military had something to do with it, or whatever. But I've just been fortunate, I guess.

This is not to denigrate or minimize the experiences of anyone else, since I think services vary somewhat, and I can surely picture some of the anecdotes here. But as skn said, Mike, thanks for sharing your insights. :asian:

 

[sgtmac_46]

I've been a cop for 11 years....before that I was a dispatcher for 2 years. There are a lot of good dispatchers....of course even as a cop, there are a few dispatchers you hate to hear working your shift.

Dispatching is a tough job, and not for everyone....I wouldn't want to do it again, it's stressful....I thought it was more stressful than working the road....in the sense of negative stress.

I've come to appreciate truly talented dispatchers, who have a feel for the job and what it requires.

 

[navyvetcv60]

There is a television commercial out right now and it has a couple in bed and they hear a noise in the house at night, the guy gets up to investigate, without a weapon, he sees someone breaking the door down, runs back up to the bedroom, shuts and locks the door.
This is a great example of how cowardly people are becoming. If I had got up to investigate a noise, i would have grabbed my 18.5" pump ( with pistol grips) shot gun, and used it instead of running to my bedroom. Could i have been killed or injured in the meantime, yes, but then again both my wife and myself could have been killed by allowing the intruder to enter unopposed.