What was Wing Chun designed for?

[LFJ]

You said he was using a weighted front leg during the fight, like boxing,

---He did! Your gif showed it!

It showed his stance perpendicular to the opponent, and him moving laterally from there.
It's impossible that he had a front leg to be weighted while perpendicular to the opponent.

here you are looking at things that are very much like boxing and at the very least "boxing-inspired" and saying that your Wing Chun has had it all along.

It is entirely unlike boxing, as I've described.

Nope. At long-range, they'll use a lead-rear leg stance to increase reach. Even an open stance will have lead and rear. They might square up with parallel feet when in close.

---But that wasn't long range right at that moment. If he was close enough to connect, he was closer than long range!

Ducking under the kick? He was not close enough to connect, so he was at long range.

Boxers will "square up" to the opponent at times when in close. Mike Tyson did this because he was a "close range" specialist!

Duh. I just said that. They use a lead leg at long range, and perpendicular stance at times in close.

As I said, though;

"This is the exact opposite of VT, because at long-range, a weighted lead leg is extremely vulnerable to devastating leg kicks (see videos above), and at close-range, an upright parallel stance is susceptible to knees, clinch grappling, and takedowns."

Tyson got away with this because, as I said;

"The boxing methods are fine within boxing ring rules that protect them from such dangers and allow them to safely behave as they do. But, it fails when facing kickers without changing footwork, biomechanics, or power generation methods."

----I guess that's why kickboxers and MMA fighters will also often stand with a forward-weighted stance??

And many get the crap kicked out of their legs for it! Many fights are ended with leg kicks.

---So you think your Wing Chun footwork is going to work better than a boxer's footwork when facing a kicker at long range? You think your Wing Chun footwork faster, more mobile and more evasive than a boxer's footwork at long range??

Of course! Boxing footwork wasn't designed to evade kicks. That's why it fails against kickers as videos show!

That's why it's stupid to transplant that type of movement into incomplete Wing Chun if intending to fight outside of protective boxing ring rules.

---I said: then please post a video of a "pure" WSLVT guy (not mixing in MMA) doing all of this. So you are now calling that video clip of Sean's student "pure" WSLVT with no mixing in of MMA???

Yes, the striking is pure WSLVT. And particularly the entire long-range game I pointed you to includes nothing whatsoever outside of pure VT strategy and tactics.

The rest of the video is irrelevant to the topic. Because they do grappling at another part of the video, doesn't mean the striking and long-range game is not pure VT.

That's just your last thread of hope at denying the demonstrated VT long-range fighting by discrediting the entire video because of unrelated clips.

 

[KPM]

But I explained previously how chi sau does exactly what you say here. The problem is that all too often WC/VT training doesn't do enough free sparring, especially against other styles, to help you understand what place chi sau is actually serving in the training.

Lets look at another form of combat training, US Army marksmanship. You practice, and qualify, using the M16 on semi auto from picture perfect supported positions. However you also train under simulated combat conditions so you can take the attributes trained to qualify; proper sight picture, trigger squeeze, and breathing, and put them into the proper context, the messy reality of combat. No one says the soldier qualifying isn't training how he will fight because that process is to build attributes that will be used when one undergoes the pressure testing of force on force training.

This has already been addressed in the whole "conditioning training vs. sport specific training" portion of the discussion. When I trained in Army marksmanship on the range we had to get "down in the trenches" and take firing positions standing, kneeling, and prone that were the firing positions we would be expected to use in combat. There were no "picture perfect support positions." But yeah...some things can be a mix of conditioning and sport-specific training. Like Chi Sau. It conditions good reactions and builds contact reflexes, even if it isn't exactly how you expect to use things. But the fact remains that the closer your training resembles what you are going to do in actual fighting, the more efficient is your training!

 

[Parky]

If anyone's interested, I'm selling popcorn and beer. $2 for popcorn & $5 for beer. PayPal accepted

What kind of popcorn? I'm partial to white cheddar. Any beer will do.

 

[LFJ]

This has already been addressed in the whole "conditioning training vs. sport specific training" portion of the discussion. When I trained in Army marksmanship on the range we had to get "down in the trenches" and take firing positions standing, kneeling, and prone that were the firing positions we would be expected to use in combat. There were no "picture perfect support positions." But yeah...some things can be a mix of conditioning and sport-specific training. Like Chi Sau. It conditions good reactions and builds contact reflexes, even if it isn't exactly how you expect to use things. But the fact remains that the closer your training resembles what you are going to do in actual fighting, the more efficient is your training!

And VT does this. You just have a very incomplete knowledge of the system and what all it entails.

 

[KPM]

The training should reflect how you intend to fight, I agree. What I was saying though was that you can train a variety of different ways and still be doing the same art. Being a wing chun man doesn't mean you only train one way or that you cannot change how you train.

--I agree! Which is why I have been suggesting that training boxing can expand upon Wing Chun's skills in long range!

Fight how you train doesn't is about the habits you form and what you are used to. It's not a god given rule meaning you can only do stuff you've drilled in class.

---No. But it is a good rule of thumb that if a lot the things you are drilling in class aren't going to show up and work in a real situation, then you have a real problem! Don't you think? You're probably wasting your time, which is not being efficient.

And no, ducking doesn't come from boxing. Ducking comes from not wanting to be hit. Bob and weave and the science of counter hitting with the weave is boxing and as I said, if you want to go that direction you might need to add from outside of chun.

---Absolutely! And if you are going to borrow things like that or do things so similar, what is wrong with suggesting that you actually train more of the method they come from to get even better at it?? That's what I've been saying this entire thread!!!!

 

[LFJ]

if you are going to borrow things like that or do things so similar, what is wrong with suggesting that you actually train more of the method they come from to get even better at it?? That's what I've been saying this entire thread!!!!

The fact that the protection of ring rules is what made it what it is and allows it to be done safely.

 

[Juany118]

This has already been addressed in the whole "conditioning training vs. sport specific training" portion of the discussion. When I trained in Army marksmanship on the range we had to get "down in the trenches" and take firing positions standing, kneeling, and prone that were the firing positions we would be expected to use in combat. There were no "picture perfect support positions." But yeah...some things can be a mix of conditioning and sport-specific training. Like Chi Sau. It conditions good reactions and builds contact reflexes, even if it isn't exactly how you expect to use things. But the fact remains that the closer your training resembles what you are going to do in actual fighting, the more efficient is your training!

By picture perfect I meant simply having stable support (knee, sand bag etc) vs say the crumbled wall, your elbows on uneven soil and/or sharp gravel etc.

 

[KPM]

Look, LFJ's responses are getting more and more pathetic. This discussion has obviously run its course. I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

BLUF: I've maintained the whole time that Wing Chun was designed for and optimized to work best at .....close range. It has a workable long range strategy for surviving at long range and closing to close range where Wing Chun works best. But this is not the same as having a dedicated "long range game" and is not quite the equivalent of methods that do...such as boxing, kickboxing, TKD, etc. I have stated that many people may be perfectly fine with using this long range strategy and that's Ok. But I have also suggested that if someone wanted to get better at fighting at long range they could look to a method that has dedicated a big portion of its training to working at long range. I prefer boxing, because IMHO it fits so well with Wing Chun.

But several people have objected to the idea that Wing Chun might not be as good at fighting at long range as say...western boxing. So they try to discredit what I'm saying by just repeating over and over that I don't understand Wing Chun. I have asked multiple times, but no one has provided a video showing this "long range Wing Chun" that is the equivalent of boxing from long range. I have provided plenty of video, however, showing Wing Chun fighters simply stepping in from long range and going at it. LFJ thinks he has the answer in a clip showing MMA sparring, and even claims it to be "pure WSLVT." A clip where there are obvious sweeps and throws and he admits that grappling has been mixed in, but when an obvious boxing element is pointed out he claims it has been part of WSLVT all along.

So that's it. Nothing has really be gained in the last 10 pages or so of this thread. So unless anyone has something interesting or constructive to contribute, I'm tired of banging my head against this brick wall.

 

[Juany118]

Look, LFJ's responses are getting more and more pathetic. This discussion has obviously run its course. I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

BLUF: I've maintained the whole time that Wing Chun was designed for and optimized to work best at .....close range. It has a workable long range strategy for surviving at long range and closing to close range where Wing Chun works best. But this is not the same as having a dedicated "long range game" and is not quite the equivalent of methods that do...such as boxing, kickboxing, TKD, etc. I have stated that many people may be perfectly fine with using this long range strategy and that's Ok. But I have also suggested that if someone wanted to get better at fighting at long range they could look to a method that has dedicated a big portion of its training to working at long range. I prefer boxing, because IMHO it fits so well with Wing Chun.

But several people have objected to the idea that Wing Chun might not be as good at fighting at long range as say...western boxing. So they try to discredit what I'm saying by just repeating over and over that I don't understand Wing Chun. I have asked multiple times, but no one has provided a video showing this "long range Wing Chun" that is the equivalent of boxing from long range. I have provided plenty of video, however, showing Wing Chun fighters simply stepping in from long range and going at it. LFJ thinks he has the answer in a clip showing MMA sparring, and even claims it to be "pure WSLVT." A clip where there are obvious sweeps and throws and he admits that grappling has been mixed in, but when an obvious boxing element is pointed out he claims it has been part of WSLVT all along.

So that's it. Nothing has really be gained in the last 10 pages or so of this thread. So unless anyone has something interesting or constructive to contribute, I'm tired of banging my head against this brick wall.

The only issue I have is with the basis of your conclusion. I don't see the drills such as chi sau as indicative of how one should fight. If that was true then shouldn't boxers punch in a fight the same way they punch a speed bag? No, they take the attributes, speed and timing, that the speed bag teaches and they apply that to sparring.

 

[LFJ]

I've maintained the whole time that Wing Chun was designed for and optimized to work best at .....close range. It has a workable long range strategy for surviving at long range and closing to close range where Wing Chun works best. But this is not the same as having a dedicated "long range game" and is not quite the equivalent of methods that do...such as boxing, kickboxing, TKD, etc.

This applies to your limited knowledge of WC, and the limited WC you have knowledge of.

I have also suggested that if someone wanted to get better at fighting at long range they could look to a method that has dedicated a big portion of its training to working at long range. I prefer boxing, because IMHO it fits so well with Wing Chun.

Gap-filling incomplete WC with WB that also needs gap-filling to function outside of its own ring rules.

LFJ thinks he has the answer in a clip showing MMA sparring, and even claims it to be "pure WSLVT." A clip where there are obvious sweeps and throws and he admits that grappling has been mixed in, but when an obvious boxing element is pointed out he claims it has been part of WSLVT all along.

KPM thinks clips of grappling at other points in the video invalidate the pure VT long-range striking method pointed out to him. In reality, he's too proud to admit it because it demonstrates there's more to YMVT than he knows, and he hates that I'm the one showing it to him. lol

So that's it. Nothing has really be gained in the last 10 pages or so of this thread.

That's a shame. If you watched some of the videos I posted (WB failing against kicks) you might learn to be more careful in what you gap-fill your incomplete WC with.

I'm tired of banging my head against this brick wall.

Maybe if you stopped doing that you could have learned a thing or two from this conversation.

 

[karatejj]

Look, LFJ's responses are getting more and more pathetic. This discussion has obviously run its course. I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

BLUF: I've maintained the whole time that Wing Chun was designed for and optimized to work best at .....close range. It has a workable long range strategy for surviving at long range and closing to close range where Wing Chun works best. But this is not the same as having a dedicated "long range game" and is not quite the equivalent of methods that do...such as boxing, kickboxing, TKD, etc. I have stated that many people may be perfectly fine with using this long range strategy and that's Ok. But I have also suggested that if someone wanted to get better at fighting at long range they could look to a method that has dedicated a big portion of its training to working at long range. I prefer boxing, because IMHO it fits so well with Wing Chun.

But several people have objected to the idea that Wing Chun might not be as good at fighting at long range as say...western boxing. So they try to discredit what I'm saying by just repeating over and over that I don't understand Wing Chun. I have asked multiple times, but no one has provided a video showing this "long range Wing Chun" that is the equivalent of boxing from long range. I have provided plenty of video, however, showing Wing Chun fighters simply stepping in from long range and going at it. LFJ thinks he has the answer in a clip showing MMA sparring, and even claims it to be "pure WSLVT." A clip where there are obvious sweeps and throws and he admits that grappling has been mixed in, but when an obvious boxing element is pointed out he claims it has been part of WSLVT all along.

So that's it. Nothing has really be gained in the last 10 pages or so of this thread. So unless anyone has something interesting or constructive to contribute, I'm tired of banging my head against this brick wall.

Got to say it, after wading my way through this monster thread you hve a point!

 

[Nobody Important]

What kind of popcorn? I'm partial to white cheddar. Any beer will do.

White cheddar is my favorite!

 

[karatejj]

I have also suggested that if someone wanted to get better at fighting at long range they could look to a method that has dedicated a big portion of its training to working at long range. I prefer boxing, because IMHO it fits so well with Wing Chun.

Sounds cool man. Do you know of any serious wing chun guys teaching this approach?

 

[KPM]

Sounds cool man. Do you know of any serious wing chun guys teaching this approach?

Rackemann Wing Chun

Iron Fist Wing Chun Boxing

 

[karatejj]

Rackemann Wing Chun

Iron Fist Wing Chun Boxing

Awesome, thanks!

Love the second link, structured lessons exactly what I need. It reminds me of the Alan Orr stuff which is also excellent.

 

[karatejj]

I'm talking about kicks from the opponent. WB's long-range footwork fails where kicks are involved.

This is what happens when you face a kicker with WB stances and footwork. Not pretty.

To quote that video: "If you sit your weight down to punch, which is "textbook" in boxing to help generate power, the power and probability of a low kick landing multiplies. Even the toughest athletes can only take so many full powered low-kicks."

Come on man, do you expect us to believe this stuff?? Everyone knows that boxers are the best at punching because it is all they do. They don't need to sink their weight down if they choose not to because they are masters of movement. Ever hear of "float like a butterfly sting like a bee"? Well that is what boxing is all about. These muy Thai sluggers couldn't hold a candle to a real boxer.

Low kicks? Don't make me laught. They will never connect with a real boxer. A boxer with wing chun in-fighting ability? Your average Muy Thai will be toast inside 1 round!

 

[LFJ]

Come on man, do you expect us to believe this stuff?? Everyone knows that boxers are the best at punching because it is all they do. They don't need to sink their weight down if they choose not to because they are masters of movement. Ever hear of "float like a butterfly sting like a bee"? Well that is what boxing is all about. These muy Thai sluggers couldn't hold a candle to a real boxer.

Low kicks? Don't make me laught. They will never connect with a real boxer. A boxer with wing chun in-fighting ability? Your average Muy Thai will be toast inside 1 round!

Lmao...

Did you bother to watch the action in the videos? It speaks for itself. Champion boxers get destroyed by leg kicks.

You can search up more yourself.

 

[karatejj]

Another classic line from that video:

"Boxing's combination punching and inside ounching becomes very limited against undefended clinch holds"

This is funny, tell me another one!

Where did they get the "boxer" in that clip. I'm betting he hasn't boxed a day against real opposition in his life! Too funny.

 

[KPM]

Champion boxers get destroyed by leg kicks.

---And you actually think your "long range Wing Chun" would fare any better in those exact same scenarios????

 

[LFJ]

Champion boxers get destroyed by leg kicks.

---And you actually think your "long range Wing Chun" would fare any better in those exact same scenarios????

Of course! I don't just leave my leg out there for them.
Boxers who haven't cross-trained don't know it doesn't work against kickers.

Nice of you to get your kid student to register and start patting your back today, by the way! lol