"What ninjutsu wants to be"

[Chris Parker]

Absolutely agreed, Bruno. All I meant was that Hatsumi Sensei was the only one recognised as head of these arts by the Japanese Government as far as I know (if Tanemura Sensei or Manaka Sensei have been given similar status I am unaware of it, but I would be far from surprised - particularly Tanemura Sensei).

There is no question of their legitimacy at all. Just who the Japanese government chooses to acknowledge as the head of the systems. But as Hatsumi was the only one mentioned, he was the only one I was addressing. Each of the gentlemen mentioned are incredibly skilled, highly respected teachers of the arts, and I mean no slur on any of them.

As for whether or not to avoid Van Donk Shihan, all I would say is that if your only way to learn is via a home training system, it is one of the easiest to follow, but is still never a recommendation. As Bruno said, these are always best used as suppliments to a real teacher. Van Donk Shihan certainly has his detractors as well as his fans, I am keeping my personal views back at this point, as I am not a member of the Bujinkan, and it is more proper for their own members to let you know how well he represents them.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Thanks Chris, I know you were not implying anything about Tanemura sensei or Manaka sensei, but I was just wondering about the administrative side of things. Hence my question.

I once read somewhere that in China and Japan, bureaucracy is sometimes considered an art, like tea ceremony, and that some people are considered masters in it. So it would not have surprised me if there was a great collection of arcane rules governing everything traditional, from koryu to flower arranging.

EDIT: as an aside: one of the reasons that using a book alone is not a good idea, is that many martial arts books, especially those about traditional arts contain many intentional mistakes to make them useless to those people without actual teacher.
Someone who has had the techniques taught to him or her, will be able to use the book as a guide because he knows what is correct and what is wrong.

 

[Troy Wideman]

HI Chris,

Just curious about your one statement, that Hatsummi was the only one recongnized by the Japanese government to be the head of these arts. What arts are you refering to and what recongnization are you talking about. If it was the Japanese award he received a little while ago, it was not to recongnize his position in the ryu ha.


Kind Regards,

Troy

 

[stephen]

All I meant was that Hatsumi Sensei was the only one recognised as head of these arts by the Japanese Government.

I am a Bujinkan student, with nothing but great respect for Hatsumi sensei, but I don't think this is actually true. If so, it's great, but could you direct me to a source?

 

[Chris Parker]

The constant thing I have heard is in reference, I believe, primarily to Togakure Ryu. Essentially, from what I understand, the listing is similar to the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, but includes listing such as Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu as a National Treasure. In order to relieve confusion about the arts, Hatsumi Sensei was recognised as the only legitimate teacher of the Ninja arts (at the time - early 70's). So no, I don't believ this refers to the Japanese Government Award, but accounts from the 70's (that I freely admit may have been mistranslated or embelished, to say the least).

As I said, he is by no means the only qualified or authentic teacher now, but I haven't heard any update for the other masters. Whether or not this recognition is still viable would be another question, and one I don't have an answer for. Should anyone have any different account, I will be very happy to learn better.

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Chris,

The Bugei Ryu ha Daijiten does not imply he is the recongnized head. This book was put together by a person, not the government. The government has never taken a position on this and they would not take the time to do so in my opinion. They would be tied up in way to many court cases, hahaha. As we all know the matter of menkyo kaiden and soke can get very mixed up. The Japanese government to my knowledge has never stated Hatsummi is the recognized head of all the arts. I am not saying Hatusmmi isn't soke of some because he is. I am just saying that the Japanese government has never come out and made this statement about the Bujinkan. The award Hatusmmi received was for cultural exchange which he has worked hard at and deserves it. I believe all Bujinkan members are proud of this award and they should be, it was a nice one for the organization.


Kind Regards,

Troy

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Troy,

Agreed, the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten has appeared in a few different editions, and was put together by Kiyoshi Watatani and Tadashi Yamada. The dates, from memory, were 1963 (original edition) and 1978 (final edition). I do not believe the Government listiing I had heard about is taken from this list, just that the list is in a similar format.

As I stated, I believe it is more in line with recognising Katori Shinto Ryu (as a National Treasure) than simply trying to arbitrate who is really in charge of any particular Ryu. As you said, that would be a legal and bureaucratic nightmare no-one would want... And I don't believe it was a statement about the Bujinkan as a whole, more for Togakure Ryu (and possibly Kumogakure, but I doubt it given the time) in the 70's. Whether it was requested or not I don't know, nor if it was simply made up (a distinct possibility I freely admit).

In the end, though, Hatsumi Sensei is a very skilled, experienced, and talented teacher of his inherrited systems, as is Tanemura Sensei, as is Manaka Sensei. The only reason this was brought up was the question was raised over his authenticity, and it was a claim I had heard a number of times, which often (but not always) lends credence.

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Chris,

No problem, just thought I would clear it up though. That is how information gets messed up and people start to take it as truth. The japanese gov't has never stepped in and clarified any teachers (ninpo) right to a specific ryu ha. There are way tooooo many lines to do this, gets to be a headache at times. I leave it to guys like George, hahahah, to figure out. Even though I have my own sources, hahaha. Anyways, hope all is well your way. Good training.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

A few Bujinkan instructors have produced "Home Study" courses, most notably Richard Van Donk Shihan (15th Dan, for the record), however I would be very surprised to find one from Hatsumi Sensei. More likely it is someone using an image of Hatsumi to show the validity of their offer, here's Hatsumi, I'm a real member, this is all good kind of thing.

Um don't take this the wrong way mate, but 15th dan? I thought tenth was the highest in Japanese systems. I've met 8th to 10ths dans / degrees (for red belt systems) and it took them 40 to 60 years for their rank. Seeing as each rank often doubles the amount of the the previous one, how long does it take to be 15th dan.

 

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

Up until a while ago, 10th Dan was the highest rank you could hold in the Bujinkan, then Hatsumi Sensei upped the grading rank, and now we have 15th dan rankings. I'm not really sure why, but I assume it's a money thing. Either way, I'm not too fond of this 15th dan ranking system, it seems unnecessary.

 

[Cryozombie]

Um don't take this the wrong way mate, but 15th dan? I thought tenth was the highest in Japanese systems. I've met 8th to 10ths dans / degrees (for red belt systems) and it took them 40 to 60 years for their rank. Seeing as each rank often doubles the amount of the the previous one, how long does it take to be 15th dan.

Up until a while ago, 10th Dan was the highest rank you could hold in the Bujinkan, then Hatsumi Sensei upped the grading rank, and now we have 15th dan rankings. I'm not really sure why, but I assume it's a money thing. Either way, I'm not too fond of this 15th dan ranking system, it seems unnecessary.

10-15 do exist in the Bujinkan. Its been discussed a lot as to the reason why and a search, if you actually care to know why these were created will turn up a rather old interview with Hatsumi where he explains there were certain levels of the training that did not translate into "Dan Ranks" per se, but to simplyfy the concepts for the western mind, he started calling them 11th dan, 12th dan, etc etc... I doubt I can do justice to the explaination better than the article, so search it out if you actually care...

OR... instead of researching it, lets just come online call it a money thing and be done with it, eh?

Bad Shinobi, no Cookie for you!

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

10-15 do exist in the Bujinkan. Its been discussed a lot as to the reason why and a search, if you actually care to know why these were created will turn up a rather old interview with Hatsumi where he explains there were certain levels of the training that did not translate into "Dan Ranks" per se, but to simplyfy the concepts for the western mind, he started calling them 11th dan, 12th dan, etc etc... I doubt I can do justice to the explaination better than the article, so search it out if you actually care...

OR... instead of researching it, lets just come online call it a money thing and be done with it, eh?

Bad Shinobi, no Cookie for you!

It's interesting to me because I had no knowledge of these extra dans. I could research it myself but not being a practitioner of ninjutsui I wouldn't know which sources to trust.

 

[Bruno@MT]

It's interesting to me because I had no knowledge of these extra dans. I could research it myself but not being a practitioner of ninjutsui I wouldn't know which sources to trust.

I am not in Bujinkan, but I read about these extra dan grades when doing my 'ninja research' when I just started.

My understanding (which may not be 100% accurate) is that these extra dan grades represent 1 of the 5 'elements' :fire, water, etc..

These elements have an influence on the techniques that are used. For example, 'fire' techniques are more agressive, while water technques rely more on 'going with the flow' (my explanation here is not correct, but you get my meaning).

Mastery of each of those elements is linked to a dan grade. But as you probably see, this doe not mean that 1 of those dan grades is not really higher than another. They just indicate mastery over different element.

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

I am not in Bujinkan, but I read about these extra dan grades when doing my 'ninja research' when I just started.

My understanding (which may not be 100% accurate) is that these extra dan grades represent 1 of the 5 'elements' :fire, water, etc..

These elements have an influence on the techniques that are used. For example, 'fire' techniques are more agressive, while water technques rely more on 'going with the flow' (my explanation here is not correct, but you get my meaning).

Mastery of each of those elements is linked to a dan grade. But as you probably see, this doe not mean that 1 of those dan grades is not really higher than another. They just indicate mastery over different element.

Ah, that makes sense. Kind of an extra curriculum / skills set. Thanks for that mate.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I am not in Bujinkan, but I read about these extra dan grades when doing my 'ninja research' when I just started.

My understanding (which may not be 100% accurate) is that these extra dan grades represent 1 of the 5 'elements' :fire, water, etc..

These elements have an influence on the techniques that are used. For example, 'fire' techniques are more agressive, while water technques rely more on 'going with the flow' (my explanation here is not correct, but you get my meaning).

Mastery of each of those elements is linked to a dan grade. But as you probably see, this doe not mean that 1 of those dan grades is not really higher than another. They just indicate mastery over different element.

I would not quite say that it is like that. The Godai as you reference above it more of a Stephen Hayes and To Shin Do than a Bujinkan thing. In the Bujinkan it is a method of counting and really nothing more.

Here is a quick link to Dale Seago's site with a short explanation on it:
http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#ranks

Another link:
http://www.winjutsu.com/bbtaikaiarticle.htm

 

[Cryozombie]

It's interesting to me because I had no knowledge of these extra dans. I could research it myself but not being a practitioner of ninjutsui I wouldn't know which sources to trust.

I did a quick search, because, as I said it's been years since I looked it up... all I keep finding is a Black Belt magazine article where they ask him why he added the rank, and he replies, the rank has always existed no one has had it before... kind of a dismissive answer, and not as complete as the other one I saw when I started researching that very question...

 

[stephen]

I'm not really sure why, but I assume it's a money thing.

Anyone who says this is showing that they really have zero idea how this all works. I don't really feel it's my place to publicly discuss the fee structure of Bujinkan rank, but just let me say that it's clear that this is not the case.

In the Bujinkan it is a method of counting and really nothing more.

It's not just in the Bujinkan that it's a method of counting. It functions that way in the days of the week, for example.

Another interesting parallel to ranking (maybe the clearest I have seen) is:

The most common representations today of the five elements, outside of martial arts and fictional references (such as in anime), are found in Buddhist architecture. Many pagodas (仏塔 buttō) in Japan are of the Gojū-no-Tō (五重&#22612 style, meaning they have five tiers or levels. Each tier, naturally, represents one of the elements, beginning with chi ("earth") at the bottom, and ending with kū ("void" or "sky") at the top. Often, the spire at the top is also divided into five sections.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I would not quite say that it is like that. The Godai as you reference above it more of a Stephen Hayes and To Shin Do than a Bujinkan thing. In the Bujinkan it is a method of counting and really nothing more.

Here is a quick link to Dale Seago's site with a short explanation on it:
http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#ranks

Another link:
http://www.winjutsu.com/bbtaikaiarticle.htm

Thanks for correcting me Brian!

My information must have come from a comparison between TSH and Bujinkan, or something like that.

 

[Chris Parker]

Just to add one last point on the 11th to 15th Dan rankings, I have heard a number of times that the levels 11 - 15 are subdivisions of 10th Dan, and are named for the various elements (I believe this is what you were getting at, Bruno). As a result, 11th Dan is refered to as Judan Chigyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Earth level), 12th as Judan Suigyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Water level) etc. For ease of understanding, and to reduce confusion, these are commonly refered to as 11th to 15th Dans.

In terms of the reason for the higher grades, it should be remembered that the grading system of any orgaisation is decided by the authority. 10th Dan may be considered the standard, but it is not universal, nor certainly mandatory to be followed. Hatsumi Sensei has stated that in fuedal Japan a warrior was considered to have come of age at 15, and was considered an adult at that point. Therefore, 15th Dan would represent a full maturation in the art, an "adult" practitioner, if you will. He did then go on to say that in modern terms, you are an adult at 21, so maybe he should increase it again!

 

[Bruno@MT]

Just to add one last point on the 11th to 15th Dan rankings, I have heard a number of times that the levels 11 - 15 are subdivisions of 10th Dan, and are named for the various elements (I believe this is what you were getting at, Bruno). As a result, 11th Dan is refered to as Judan Chigyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Earth level), 12th as Judan Suigyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Water level) etc. For ease of understanding, and to reduce confusion, these are commonly refered to as 11th to 15th Dans.

Thanks Chris. Yes, this is the thing I was referring to.