A
ahlspiess
Guest
What martial art is generally taught to Russian conscript soldiers? Is this art similar to what Vlad and Scott are teaching? I am also wondering if this art is technique oriented like Krav Maga.
What martial art is generally taught to Russian conscript soldiers?
OP
Pyros
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #2
A military version of Sambo. Sambo comes in three forms, sport, self defence and military. Mil is the simplest (most direct and dirty) of the forms. Systema is only taught to special forces and some professional soldiers but not to conscripts.
OP
Shadow Hunter
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #3
Most soldiers only learn sambo military version. However, some elite units are approached by a certain martial arts system (the name of which would be known to most people here) and offered free classes in their art. The Russian military is strapped for cash and any chance to do training without paying for it is jumped on.
This art, which is purely civilian in origin and administration but makes a point of using elements from the military, then can talk about how, "you too can learn the art taught to the elite..... division."
Thanks to this skillfull marketing technique, this art is now one of the biggest domestic martial arts in Russia.
Buyer beware.
This art, which is purely civilian in origin and administration but makes a point of using elements from the military, then can talk about how, "you too can learn the art taught to the elite..... division."
Thanks to this skillfull marketing technique, this art is now one of the biggest domestic martial arts in Russia.
Buyer beware.
Arthur
Blue Belt
Standard conscripts in any army hardly get any h2h training... let a alone a martial art. Most armies rely on a an amalgamation of methods by the highest bidder with the right contacts. This is true for the US military and for the Russian military.
Individual units may be trained in specific things in any given army, but that poinbt is moot in relation to the basic army and conscripts in particular.
Arthur
Individual units may be trained in specific things in any given army, but that poinbt is moot in relation to the basic army and conscripts in particular.
Arthur
OP
Rich_
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #5
It's worth noting that sport sambo and boxing are popular pastimes, although not actually part of the syllabus.
General soldiers - and especially conscripts - are not expected to be without their rifle and bayonet at any time; it would be a waste of time and money giving HTH lessons when they could be down at the rifle range or in the gym.
General soldiers - and especially conscripts - are not expected to be without their rifle and bayonet at any time; it would be a waste of time and money giving HTH lessons when they could be down at the rifle range or in the gym.
OP
ahlspiess
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #6
Thanks for your replies. Is there someone who is versed in the military form of Sambo? Would this be as good as Systema?
Furtry
Green Belt
I'm biased...but NO.
The whole thing about Military Sambo is that it has a true NHB attitude. Head butts, eye gouges, knees breaks ...etc. BUT it's still TECHNIQUE based.
Furtry
Green Belt
I was replying to this
SonnyPuzikas
Yellow Belt
Well...
Once-and only once-I was a conscript in Soviet military...
In "uchebka"-equivalent to bootcamp- we had about 2 hrs. a week dedicated to H2H. Nothing special- but not bad.
After "uchebka"- plenty of freestyle "whatever works for you" with some organized drills taught by officers- some would describe it as combat sambo. Military sambo??? Whats that? The terms used in Russia and former USSR to describe most of what was taught to Spetsnaz units were "rukopashnyi boi" (direct translation-hand to hand combat) and "boevoe sambo"(translation-combat sambo). Troops reffered to whatever was taught as "rukopashka"- shortened slang term for hand to hand, or "machalka" or "boinia"- both terms are slang for fighting, beating.
Systema was and is little known subject even inside Spetsnaz. Some who are fortunate to see someone from GRU doing Systema have no clue what they are witnessing... As it happened to me.
Comparing combat sambo to Systema is futile. Totally different concept and approach. One is for soldier. The other- for specialist.
Once-and only once-I was a conscript in Soviet military...
In "uchebka"-equivalent to bootcamp- we had about 2 hrs. a week dedicated to H2H. Nothing special- but not bad.
After "uchebka"- plenty of freestyle "whatever works for you" with some organized drills taught by officers- some would describe it as combat sambo. Military sambo??? Whats that? The terms used in Russia and former USSR to describe most of what was taught to Spetsnaz units were "rukopashnyi boi" (direct translation-hand to hand combat) and "boevoe sambo"(translation-combat sambo). Troops reffered to whatever was taught as "rukopashka"- shortened slang term for hand to hand, or "machalka" or "boinia"- both terms are slang for fighting, beating.
Systema was and is little known subject even inside Spetsnaz. Some who are fortunate to see someone from GRU doing Systema have no clue what they are witnessing... As it happened to me.
Comparing combat sambo to Systema is futile. Totally different concept and approach. One is for soldier. The other- for specialist.
Slightly offline here but this year the Russain trip (organised by David K from UK) actually witnessed the final part of some guys trying to get in the Spetz. After 16m run (with full pack), shooting, and a nice little obstacle course the recruits have to have a 12 min fight with their instructors (the instructors change every 3 mins). During this fight we witnessed - what i perceived to be a TKD (boxing with kicks) approach taken by the instructors - basically survival. We witnessed 3 recuits EARN their red berets.
P
P
OP
Rich_
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #11
Sonny - "military sambo" is boevoe sambo. It strikes me as a purely technical style - a 'he does this, you do that' style, similar to (as I understand it) Krav Maga, for example. Was that your experience?
I've seen video tape of Spetsnaz (antiterrorist) training and their HTH style looked like Pervaz said - high kicks, boxing hands.
I've seen video tape of Spetsnaz (antiterrorist) training and their HTH style looked like Pervaz said - high kicks, boxing hands.
SonnyPuzikas
Yellow Belt
Trying to categorize H2H taught and practiced in Russian military, special services and different Spetsnaz units is something I would not attempt.
What Pervaz has observed is Red Beret test in the unit of MVD, probably Vityaz. They are most known MVD Spetsnaz unit, and training has changed from, let's say the way it was in 80's. General Lysiuk has retired, new comander- whom I happened to know- he was company commander in Siberian military district in 89, has somewhat different approach to H2H. Other Spetsnaz units within MVD- including regional OMON and SOBR units, have H2H training that is very diverse- from something very similar to "rukopashnyi boi" that Vityaz does to methods that closely resemble Systema, but are more technique oriented and don't cover full spectrum of combat, as Systema or Kadochnikov style does. In VDV(airborne) Spetsnaz situation is similar. Where it changes is in GRU (Main Intelligence directorate) and FSB (used to be KGB) SPetsnaz. Thats where you can find Systema and some other methods that cover full spectrum of combat- lending itself to work not just in H2H, knives and such, but work with firearms, recon work, interogations and many other, sometimes darker aspects of what these specialists may have to do.
"Boevoe Sambo" is not the same no matter where you go. And it's not entirelly correct that it has technique approach- he does A, you do Z. To some degree- yes,but in some units it is taught in more "Systema-ish" manner- not as restricted and more instinctive. It still has combat sambo's attitude- which is one of many reasons it is not as effective as Systema is. You can't expect 20 something year old Spetsnaz boys to be what seasoned GRU operators are.
:ak47:
What Pervaz has observed is Red Beret test in the unit of MVD, probably Vityaz. They are most known MVD Spetsnaz unit, and training has changed from, let's say the way it was in 80's. General Lysiuk has retired, new comander- whom I happened to know- he was company commander in Siberian military district in 89, has somewhat different approach to H2H. Other Spetsnaz units within MVD- including regional OMON and SOBR units, have H2H training that is very diverse- from something very similar to "rukopashnyi boi" that Vityaz does to methods that closely resemble Systema, but are more technique oriented and don't cover full spectrum of combat, as Systema or Kadochnikov style does. In VDV(airborne) Spetsnaz situation is similar. Where it changes is in GRU (Main Intelligence directorate) and FSB (used to be KGB) SPetsnaz. Thats where you can find Systema and some other methods that cover full spectrum of combat- lending itself to work not just in H2H, knives and such, but work with firearms, recon work, interogations and many other, sometimes darker aspects of what these specialists may have to do.
"Boevoe Sambo" is not the same no matter where you go. And it's not entirelly correct that it has technique approach- he does A, you do Z. To some degree- yes,but in some units it is taught in more "Systema-ish" manner- not as restricted and more instinctive. It still has combat sambo's attitude- which is one of many reasons it is not as effective as Systema is. You can't expect 20 something year old Spetsnaz boys to be what seasoned GRU operators are.
:ak47:
OP
Rich_
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #13
Thanks for the clarification, Sonny. Quick question:
Are Alfa operatives GRU or KGB?
Are Alfa operatives GRU or KGB?
SonnyPuzikas
Yellow Belt
A (Alpha) and V (Vympel) are FSB (KGB) Spetsnaz outfits. GRU folks are not as willing to be known and recognized...
