what is the main root of MA

[exile]

For some strange reason I thought that the HEROIC Cynical Curmudgeons would gravitate to this thread.

And we didn't disappoint you, did we, JB! :angel:

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

People have been learning how to protect there families, tribes, cities, etc. since the beginning. Martial skills have always been important to provide safety to any and every group. I do not think you can say it started anywhere in particular but that every group, culture, etc. has had a form of martial arts and trained in it. Some became more codified (east asian martial arts) and were still trained regularly even when the tools changed. (ie. firearms) Other's drifted or were no longer used and therefore disappeared with the advance in technology. Bottom line I do not think you can find an origional source but instead many sources. That is what makes it beautiful because of all of the variety.

 

[MJS]

I was wondering, we have chinesse MA, Japanese MA, Korean MA,Vietnamese MA, etc,etc. but waht's the real main root of the martial arts, I mean where it comes from?

Manny

I believe the OP was asking for a geographical area or areas in which the various arts out there have generated. We have a thread here to discuss the ethics of the arts.

 

[Sukerkin]

And we didn't disappoint you, did we, JB!

Nope, you chaps didn't disappoint. Excellent and interesting posts as ever :rei:.

Sadly, also as it seems destined ever to be, I was unable to hand out rep as deserved {I swear those Gnomes are getting even more churlish :lol:}.

 

[exile]

I believe the OP was asking for a geographical area or areas in which the various arts out there have generated. We have a thread here to discuss the ethics of the arts.

Quite right, Mark. The OPer is clearly employing the common usage of `martial art' as systematic fighting system, and in that normal sense of the term, we wouldn't expect to find a single point of origin for something as built-into human society as combat. I'm not saying that it's part of human nature to fight—there are societies that have been described (in Amazonia, for example) where physical conflict was considered completely unacceptable, almost nonhuman; but the capacity to fight is clearly inborn, and actualized in most cultures.

The thing is, we tend to be unhappy, for some reason, with accounts that involve multiple, independent orgins for certain things, and MAs seem to be one of them. I'm not sure why. We don't assume, for example, that dance arose at a single point in space and time and then diffused out to the rest of the world. Or toymaking, or any number of other activities. I'm not sure why there is so much concern with `the' origin of MA... could it just be a large scale version of the lineage preoccupations that seem to afflict so many MAists? Sort of the BIG lineage question? The thing is, lineage issues seem to be associated with legitimacy questions, but the search for the Ur-MA doesn't strike me as involving legitimacy... :idunno:

Sadly, also as it seems destined ever to be, I was unable to hand out rep as deserved {I swear those Gnomes are getting even more churlish :lol:}.

It's OK, Mark, it's ever the thought that counts.... and as you may've noticed, some of us are a bit less encumbered in that respect at the moment...

 

[Brother John]

I was wondering, we have chinesse MA, Japanese MA, Korean MA,Vietnamese MA, etc,etc. but waht's the real main root of the martial arts, I mean where it comes from?

Manny

Sort of like asking where food came from.
Mankind has been fighting and struggling with each other since Cain & Able. (or Monkey 1 and Monkey 2 if you don't but the whole Gennisis thing) Martial Arts are about war, fighting...etc.

As for the Asian martial arts: If you had to reach for a place of origin.... I'd have to say that you'll need to look to India!! Most places known for their combat arts had 'systems' for combat training already....but these were influenced by the older civilizations. The systems of India are some of THE oldest, and I believe they were transplanted to China and other places throughout Asia...and transformed into the oldest of Gung-Fu and other systems.....which were further disceminated throughout the Orient by monks and others. These systems were added too or greatly influenced the systems already found in the other countries..further molding them into systems of combat that we now enjoy.

Your Brother
John

 

[Andrew Green]

Sort of like asking where food came from.
Mankind has been fighting and struggling with each other since Cain & Able. (or Monkey 1 and Monkey 2 if you don't but the whole Gennisis thing) Martial Arts are about war, fighting...etc.

So what you are saying is the oldest martial art is reall "Monkey Kung Fu"? :lol:

 

[exile]

Sort of like asking where food came from.
Mankind has been fighting and struggling with each other since Cain & Able. (or Monkey 1 and Monkey 2 if you don't but the whole Gennisis thing) Martial Arts are about war, fighting...etc.

As for the Asian martial arts: If you had to reach for a place of origin.... I'd have to say that you'll need to look to India!! Most places known for their combat arts had 'systems' for combat training already....but these were influenced by the older civilizations. The systems of India are some of THE oldest, and I believe they were transplanted to China and other places throughout Asia...and transformed into the oldest of Gung-Fu and other systems.....which were further disceminated throughout the Orient by monks and others. These systems were added too or greatly influenced the systems already found in the other countries..further molding them into systems of combat that we now enjoy.

Your Brother
John

The problem is, there's no documentary or archaeological reason to believe that the combat systems of India are any older than those of China. The Shang dynasty, China's second, is in excess of four thousand years old, and the Bronze Age Chinese armies of that time were already formidable, sophisticated fighters. If you say that the oldest martial arts are from X and diffused to Y, you are making a substantial factual claim. You say that `The systems of India are some of THE oldest, and I believe they were transplanted to China and other places throughout Asia'. Well, what is the evidence base for that belief—specifically, the belief/claim about (i) the respective ages of Indian and Chinese fighting systems and (ii) the actual spread of the former to the latter?

 

[tellner]

They both had armies a long, long time ago. Ergo, they both had martial arts.

The Harrapan culture is certainly older than any civilization we know about in China. But we have no idea how much cultural influence it had on later India.

 

[Xue Sheng]

They both had armies a long, long time ago. Ergo, they both had martial arts.

The Harrapan culture is certainly older than any civilization we know about in China. But we have no idea how much cultural influence it had on later India.

A bit

Harappan Culture: From 2500 B.C. to 1600 B.C
Xia Dynasty China: 2100 to 1800 B.C or ca. 2000-1500 B.C
Shang Dynasty: 1700-1027 B.C.

But as I sit here reading through all in a slightly feverish state (sick today) I am beginning to think this discussion is much the same as which came first the Chicken or the egg.

The fact that the Harappan predates Xia really does not mean jack as to whether or not it influenced Chinese martial arts at all. This does not mean that the Harappan were not the first to develop a martial art but it also does not mean that they had any martial influence on China in any way shape or form. But they could have just as easily, but to be honest I tend to doubt it.

If Newton and Leibniz can come up with Calculus independently of each other and at the same time what is to say that is was not exactly the same with marital arts.

Some guy in India figures out a better way to put a smack down on his neighbor and exactly the same time a guy in China figures out a similar thing. Some guy in Greece figures out Pankration another guy in Mongolia figures out how to wrestle and some one in China comes up with the precursor to Shuaijiao. It is all about survival so I tend to feel it is highly unlikely it was started by one group or one guy.

So what came first the Chicken or the Egg?

 

[tellner]

But as I sit here reading through all in a slightly feverish state (sick today) I am beginning to think this discussion is much the same as which came first the Chicken or the egg.

That one's simple.

If you're a Creationist it was the chicken. The Deity created all the animals. One of them was the chicken.

If you lean towards Science it was the egg. Chickens evolved from their predecessors. Those predecessors all laid eggs. At some point you can say "This is the earliest thing which we can all agree was a chicken. It came from an egg. Ergo the egg came first. Quod Erat Demonstrandum."

Isn't MartialTalk great? Not only can you argue about who is the Supreme Grand Master of Billy Bob's Kenpo Ryu Bujutsu Ninja Fu, you can learn the answers to the Mysteries of the Ages

The fact that the Harappan predates Xia really does not mean jack as to whether or not it influenced Chinese martial arts at all. This does not mean that the Harappan were not the first to develop a martial art but it also does not mean that they had any martial influence on China in any way shape or form. But they could have just as easily, but to be honest I tend to doubt it.

Pre-frickin'-cisely. Even if one were older it says absolutely nothing about what influenced what. I was just trying to spoke someone's wheel a little bit.

 

[exile]

They both had armies a long, long time ago. Ergo, they both had martial arts.

The Harrapan culture is certainly older than any civilization we know about in China. But we have no idea how much cultural influence it had on later India.

If Newton and Leibniz can come up with Calculus independently of each other and at the same time what is to say that is was not exactly the same with marital arts.

Some guy in India figures out a better way to put a smack down on his neighbor and exactly the same time a guy in China figures out a similar thing. Some guy in Greece figures out Pankration another guy in Mongolia figures out how to wrestle and some one in China comes up with the precursor to Shuaijiao. It is all about survival so I tend to feel it is highly unlikely it was started by one group or one guy.

As usual, my fellow HCCs have zeroed in on the crucial arguments and examples—the independent discovery of the calculus by Newton and Leibnitz is a beaut, XS! The crucial lesson to take away from their posts, I believe, is that, as Tellner stresses, you cannot use relative ages of civilization to come to conclusion about the relationship between specific components of those two civilizations. If something works really well, and it's worth doing, then the odds are good it'll be discovered independently in different places at different times. You're an ancient civilization and you want to build tall? You don't have much choice: it's going to be a ziggurat or a pyramid, and the current state of the argument makes it pretty clear that the Aztecs and Maya invented the form of their pyramidal structures completely independently of Old World sources.


You don't need modern anatomical knowledge to understand that the directions of mobility for the wrist or elbow are limited and that forcing either joint to travel in one of the other directions will cause.... pain. If Bruce Lee was correct that facts about skeletal anatomy and the nervous system mean there are only so many ways to move in to atttack someone and only so many ways to defend, then shouldn't we expect the same discoveries to be made repeatedly and independently?

 

[Xue Sheng]

That one's simple.

If you're a Creationist it was the chicken. The Deity created all the animals. One of them was the chicken.

If you lean towards Science it was the egg. Chickens evolved from their predecessors. Those predecessors all laid eggs. At some point you can say "This is the earliest thing which we can all agree was a chicken. It came from an egg. Ergo the egg came first. Quod Erat Demonstrandum."

Isn't MartialTalk great? Not only can you argue about who is the Supreme Grand Master of Billy Bob's Kenpo Ryu Bujutsu Ninja Fu, you can learn the answers to the Mysteries of the Ages

Huh, I just wanted mine scrambled with toast :uhyeah:

OK then which came first the creationist and scientist or the argument about it.

Damn Chickens, who knew they were such philosophical being

Pre-frickin'-cisely. Even if one were older it says absolutely nothing about what influenced what. I was just trying to spoke someone's wheel a little bit.

I need to read stuff like this when I am running a low-grade fever more often.

Pretty much if Calculus and pyramids can be developed by different people without any of them having knowledge of the other it would seem to follow that martial arts could very likely develop the same way.

 

[Xue Sheng]

OOPS.... and speaking of pyramids.... sorry about that, I really need to read what everyone has posted before I post.... I shall blame it on the fever.

As usual, my fellow HCCs have zeroed in on the crucial arguments and examples—the independent discovery of the calculus by Newton and Leibnitz is a beaut, XS! The crucial lesson to take away from their posts, I believe, is that, as Tellner stresses, you cannot use relative ages of civilization to come to conclusion about the relationship between specific components of those two civilizations. If something works really well, and it's worth doing, then the odds are good it'll be discovered independently in different places at different times. You're an ancient civilization and you want to build tall? You don't have much choice: it's going to be a ziggurat or a pyramid, and the current state of the argument makes it pretty clear that the Aztecs and Maya invented the form of their pyramidal structures completely independently of Old World sources.


You don't need modern anatomical knowledge to understand that the directions of mobility for the wrist or elbow are limited and that forcing either joint to travel in one of the other directions will cause.... pain. If Bruce Lee was correct that facts about skeletal anatomy and the nervous system mean there are only so many ways to move in to atttack someone and only so many ways to defend, then shouldn't we expect the same discoveries to be made repeatedly and independently?

Completely agree

 

[10,000 Hit Combo]

You guys are all wrong! Chuck Norris came up with the martial arts one day while he was building the log cabin he was born in. He also invented BBQ, swear words and cowboys.

 

[exile]

You guys are all wrong! Chuck Norris came up with the martial arts one day while he was building the log cabin he was born in. He also invented BBQ, swear words and cowboys.

I won't say anything to contradict. Chuck might find out and not like it, and then...

 

[Touch Of Death]

A bit

Harappan Culture: From 2500 B.C. to 1600 B.C
Xia Dynasty China: 2100 to 1800 B.C or ca. 2000-1500 B.C
Shang Dynasty: 1700-1027 B.C.

But as I sit here reading through all in a slightly feverish state (sick today) I am beginning to think this discussion is much the same as which came first the Chicken or the egg.

The fact that the Harappan predates Xia really does not mean jack as to whether or not it influenced Chinese martial arts at all. This does not mean that the Harappan were not the first to develop a martial art but it also does not mean that they had any martial influence on China in any way shape or form. But they could have just as easily, but to be honest I tend to doubt it.

If Newton and Leibniz can come up with Calculus independently of each other and at the same time what is to say that is was not exactly the same with marital arts.

Some guy in India figures out a better way to put a smack down on his neighbor and exactly the same time a guy in China figures out a similar thing. Some guy in Greece figures out Pankration another guy in Mongolia figures out how to wrestle and some one in China comes up with the precursor to Shuaijiao. It is all about survival so I tend to feel it is highly unlikely it was started by one group or one guy.

So what came first the Chicken or the Egg?

(pictures egg smoking a cigarette) As for whom discovers something first. I've heared that somethings get simultaneously invented all the time. The telephone was just plain ready to be invented. The only argument is the patent date.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

As usual, my fellow HCCs have zeroed in on the crucial arguments and examples—the independent discovery of the calculus by Newton and Leibnitz is a beaut, XS! The crucial lesson to take away from their posts, I believe, is that, as Tellner stresses, you cannot use relative ages of civilization to come to conclusion about the relationship between specific components of those two civilizations. If something works really well, and it's worth doing, then the odds are good it'll be discovered independently in different places at different times. You're an ancient civilization and you want to build tall? You don't have much choice: it's going to be a ziggurat or a pyramid, and the current state of the argument makes it pretty clear that the Aztecs and Maya invented the form of their pyramidal structures completely independently of Old World sources.


You don't need modern anatomical knowledge to understand that the directions of mobility for the wrist or elbow are limited and that forcing either joint to travel in one of the other directions will cause.... pain. If Bruce Lee was correct that facts about skeletal anatomy and the nervous system mean there are only so many ways to move in to atttack someone and only so many ways to defend, then shouldn't we expect the same discoveries to be made repeatedly and independently?

They have found cocaine in ancient Egyptian Pyramids; so you never know if they had contact with eachother or not. The drug tade was alive and well.
Sean

 

[Langenschwert]

I hate it when people make all the good points before I get to post! I'm sure the origins are lost in the mists of time. Where there is conflict, there will be Martial Arts. The more conflict there is, the faster they develop... like an arms race.

As a WMAer, I would like to believe that Pankration was the grand-daddy of all MA, but really... to think that Asians didn't know how to fight until the Greeks came along is kind of silly. Did the Pankrationists influence their Eastern counterparts? Maybe. And maybe the Indians influenced the Greeks.

But the independant development is likely the best theory. Simply taking a look at the stances of both German and Japanese swordsmanship seems to confirm that quite well. As well as the similarity between Ringen and Jiu-Jutsu. There was no German knight wandering Japan in the 1300's showing them swordsmanship and grappling, even though the arts are so similar it's spooky.

So I will go out on a limb and say that I am the source of all martial arts, since it's just about as proveable as any other theory.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[tellner]

(pictures egg smoking a cigarette)

...and the chicken is saying

"Of course you did. That's why I never do at all."