What is really the difference between TMA and MMA? False Dichotomy...

[K-man]

I'm still trying to figure out what a bloody TMA actually is. No one wants to take the time to ensure we're talking apples to apples.

Kyokushin karate spars, has a competition element with rules. Also has kata and forms and is Asian. TMA? Sport? Self defense? All three? Why.

I think it depends on the context. We are certainly not comparing apples with apples here but Hanzou can't or won't acknowledge there is a difference. When I trained Goju Kai kata were really just for show and a grading requirement. We had very basic explanation of what the movements were meant to represent similar to what Hanzou posted earlier. Having kata that is meaningless is a pretty useless waste of valuable training time to me.

So Kyokoshin ... TMA? Technically yes, but still different to Okinawan karate. Sport? Most definitely. Self defence? Well, as has been discussed elsewhere, I believe it has at least as much to offer as any other martial art.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

I left Shotokan (and Karate in general) because of the issue we're discussing; The actual fighting form of karate didn't resemble the drills or the forms.

And I left Goju Kai karate for a similar reason. But I found the answer in a Okinawan Goju Ryu.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm still trying to figure out what a bloody TMA actually is. No one wants to take the time to ensure we're talking apples to apples.

Kyokushin karate spars, has a competition element with rules. Also has kata and forms and is Asian. TMA? Sport? Self defense? All three? Why.

Traditional martial art.

Because again, they retain traditional techniques simply for preservation purposes. By contrast, I would consider Bjj a modern martial art because nothing we do in Bjj isn't used when we fight. We fight like we train.

So Bjj is modern, Kyokushin is traditional, despite Bjj being older than Kyokushin.

 

[arnisador]

But I found the answer in a Okinawan Goju Ryu.

I liked that a lot. Sadly, I changed states after brown belt and had to start over again (Uechi-ryu--fascinating, but very different).

Okinawan karate is the original karate, but I'm not sure what people mean by 'traditional' here if it isn't 'first'. I think TMA is more about the means of training than the art itself, in practice.

 

[arnisador]

So Bjj is modern, Kyokushin is traditional, despite Bjj being older than Kyokushin.

That's strictly true but I think one needs to consider Kyokushin in a context of continuing, with variations and innovations, an older tradition of Shotokan and its Okinawan predecessors. The changes introduced in Kyokushin were, like those in BJJ, disruptive in a way most new minor changes leading to a new name aren't, but it did evolve from a consistent tardition, a specific traditional lineage.

 

[Hanzou]

They can call them what they like. I will stick with the official Okinawan definition. Not my opinion ... just the fact.

Why would the Okinawan karate viewpoint override the viewpoint of Japanese and Korean karate stylists?

Once again you are showing Shotokan karate. Once you add a second attacker to a kata it becomes choreography as multiple attacks don't occur at a particular time.

Okinawan Goju Ryu Kata bunkai.

Again, mostly strikes, not grappling.

And the instructor is part of the IOGKF. So yes it is an actual Okinawan Goju-Ryu school and instructor.

Then we have you assertion that there are blocks. Please show me how that is.

Because they're called blocks;

LEARNING JAPANESE ? Blocking Techniques (Uke-waza) ? Using Arms
List of Taekwondo techniques - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Basic Terminology - Traditional Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate-do Association

According to the traditional Okinawan Karate-do Association, Okinawan Shorin-Ryu Karate, and Okinawan Goju Ryu, Uke=block.

Of course it makes sense that Uke would mean "to receive", since when you're blocking, you're receiving the attack. It doesn't have to mean that you grapple with someone, or throwing them. In fact, in other Japanese arts like Aikido or Judo, Uke is the one getting tossed.

'Uke' is to receive, not to block. Block is a term given to describe what you have obviously been taught. The fact that you said they don't work means that, again, their might be a better explanation. Why would traditional martial artists be taught techniques that don't work?

The same reason some martial arts teach people how to use swords and bladed spears in an era when people are armed with handguns, and don't carry swords on their hip or pole-arms on their back. Its all about maintaining/preserving tradition.

Crap! If you are performing a kata you will perform the technique as the kata dictates. I don't teach drills like that unless they are grappling drills. If I am teaching guys how to punch I teach them how to punch. No different to Krav or Systema for that matter. The fact that no one punches the way you are describing in a fight might make an intelligent person think that perhaps there might be a different explanation.

Okay, but Karate katas are loaded with chambered hand movements. As I showed above and in earlier posts, all of those applications aren't for grappling and throws. In fact, the good majority of them are for striking. Hence why it's called a "punch" in Karate is called a punch, not a movement that sets up a throw or a grapple.

 

[mook jong man]

I suppose this Wing Chun guy is also using punches from boxing , boxing footwork and the boxing defensive posture?

Because as everybody knows , all traditional martial artists when they fight their form degenerates into crappy kickboxing doesn't it.

[video=youtube_share;OtpLNp24UUM]http://youtu.be/OtpLNp24UUM[/video]

 

[Steve]

lol yeah, when you get down to brass tacks, devil is in the detail.

Agreed. There's a lot of talking past each other going on here, I think.

I think it depends on the context. We are certainly not comparing apples with apples here but Hanzou can't or won't acknowledge there is a difference. When I trained Goju Kai kata were really just for show and a grading requirement. We had very basic explanation of what the movements were meant to represent similar to what Hanzou posted earlier. Having kata that is meaningless is a pretty useless waste of valuable training time to me.

So Kyokoshin ... TMA? Technically yes, but still different to Okinawan karate. Sport? Most definitely. Self defence? Well, as has been discussed elsewhere, I believe it has at least as much to offer as any other martial art.
:asian:

Thanks, I would agree that Kyokushin is a TMA and also a sport. Regarding self defense, I would also agree that it has as much to offer as any other style. I would actually lean toward having MORE to contribute, because my opinion is that the competition and sparring are much closer to testing proficiency and application than styles which don't spar or compete. But that's another discussion, I think.

Traditional martial art.

Because again, they retain traditional techniques simply for preservation purposes. By contrast, I would consider Bjj a modern martial art because nothing we do in Bjj isn't used when we fight. We fight like we train.

So Bjj is modern, Kyokushin is traditional, despite Bjj being older than Kyokushin.

I also train BJJ and hear what you're saying. But to play devil's advocate for a moment, can you tell me what you mean by "fight?" Do you mean when we spar? Maybe when we compete? Or are you talking about the videos where BJJ is used successfully in a self defense situation, such as maybe when Ryan Hall defended himself in the popular video?

Do you think you'd ever use upside down guard or deep half in a self defense situation? What about 50/50? Good for self defense? Ryan Hall is THE deep half guy, and in competition, he is not at all reluctant to dive into guard/half guard and work from the bottom. But in a self defense situation, he first did a lot of talking and staying calm, kept his wits, tried to deescalate, and when it became physical, he took the guy to the ground and controlled him from the top. Ryan Hall's "self defense" bore no resemblance to the way he "fights" in competition.

I personally think BJJ is a terrific self defense martial art. And I agree that we practice applying technique against resistance. But, I don't know that I agree we fight like we train. Or, more accurately, I would say that of the techniques we train, only a fraction of them would be relevant to self defense.

 

[Steve]

That's strictly true but I think one needs to consider Kyokushin in a context of continuing, with variations and innovations, an older tradition of Shotokan and its Okinawan predecessors. The changes introduced in Kyokushin were, like those in BJJ, disruptive in a way most new minor changes leading to a new name aren't, but it did evolve from a consistent tardition, a specific traditional lineage.

Strictly speaking, BJJ is also the continuing, with variations and innovations, the tradition of a much older style, which was itself a continuing of a much older style. I think the biggest difference between BJJ as a martial arts style and Kyokushin Karate as a martial arts style is that the Brazilians added a lot of their personality to the training traditions. The culture of BJJ is much closer to the personality of the Brazilians than of the Japanese.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I would say that of the techniques we train, only a fraction of them would be relevant to self defense.

Only a small fraction of the techniques in any martial art would be used for self defence, but we practice them all because we won't know what we will need to use in any situation until it happens.

 

[Hanzou]

I also train BJJ and hear what you're saying. But to play devil's advocate for a moment, can you tell me what you mean by "fight?" Do you mean when we spar? Maybe when we compete? Or are you talking about the videos where BJJ is used successfully in a self defense situation, such as maybe when Ryan Hall defended himself in the popular video?

Do you think you'd ever use upside down guard or deep half in a self defense situation? What about 50/50? Good for self defense? Ryan Hall is THE deep half guy, and in competition, he is not at all reluctant to dive into guard/half guard and work from the bottom. But in a self defense situation, he first did a lot of talking and staying calm, kept his wits, tried to deescalate, and when it became physical, he took the guy to the ground and controlled him from the top. Ryan Hall's "self defense" bore no resemblance to the way he "fights" in competition.

I personally think BJJ is a terrific self defense martial art. And I agree that we practice applying technique against resistance. But, I don't know that I agree we fight like we train. Or, more accurately, I would say that of the techniques we train, only a fraction of them would be relevant to self defense.

When I say "fight" I'm including competition, sparring in class, and self defense. You really don't see many traditional karate techniques in competition, or sparring in class, which makes the possibility of pulling it off in a self defense situation highly unlikely.

I suppose this Wing Chun guy is also using punches from boxing , boxing footwork and the boxing defensive posture?

Because as everybody knows , all traditional martial artists when they fight their form degenerates into crappy kickboxing doesn't it.

[video=youtube_share;OtpLNp24UUM]http://youtu.be/OtpLNp24UUM[/video]

While that didn't degenerate into crappy kickboxing, it definitely degenerated into crappy slap-fu.

In case you're wondering, Slap-Fu is worse.

 

[mook jong man]

When I say "fight" I'm including competition, sparring in class, and self defense. You really don't see many traditional karate techniques in competition, or sparring in class, which makes the possibility of pulling it off in a self defense situation highly unlikely.



While that didn't degenerate into crappy kickboxing, it definitely degenerated into crappy slap-fu.

In case you're wondering, Slap-Fu is worse.

Oh I didn't see any Slap Fu , what I did see however is a Wing Chun guy deflecting every one of the Muay Thai guys punches and then going straight through his centerline and then running over him until he backed him into a mirror.

What you think are slaps are actually open hand deflections.
But since you brought up the topic of slaps , do not underestimate the power of a slap.

They can knock you out cold just as well as any punch can , they can also be a lot more powerful because the hand and forearm stay relaxed as they don't have to tense up the muscles to form a fist.

 

[Buka]

But since you brought up the topic of slaps , do not underestimate the power of a slap.

 

[mook jong man]

Exactly.
And he did it from a neutral stance , not a boxing or martial arts stance.
Nice and relaxed with a slight pivot of the body to generate power.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh I didn't see any Slap Fu , what I did see however is a Wing Chun guy deflecting every one of the Muay Thai guys punches and then going straight through his centerline and then running over him until he backed him into a mirror.

What you think are slaps are actually open hand deflections.

If you say so. From my PoV it looked like two guys windmilling each other with the WC guy actually connecting. Neither looked overly impressive or good in a technical sense. If my instructor looked like either one of those guys did in that little sparring match, I would immediately quit that school and look for some place legit.

But since you brought up the topic of slaps , do not underestimate the power of a slap.

They can knock you out cold just as well as any punch can , they can also be a lot more powerful because the hand and forearm stay relaxed as they don't have to tense up the muscles to form a fist.

Which is why that MT boxer got slapped dozens of times and walked out of that without a single mark or bruise on him? There was no power behind any of those slaps. He probably got more damage from running into the glass.

 

[Hanzou]

That one slap had way more power in it than any of those WC slaps did.

 

[mook jong man]

If you say so. From my PoV it looked like two guys windmilling each other with the WC guy actually connecting. Neither looked overly impressive or good in a technical sense. If my instructor looked like either one of those guys did in that little sparring match, I would immediately quit that school and look for some place legit.



Which is why that MT boxer got slapped dozens of times and walked out of that without a single mark or bruise on him? There was no power behind any of those slaps. He probably got more damage from running into the glass.

Again , they were deflections not slaps.

Maybe the Wing Chun guy thought he didn't have to punch the guys face in to prove a point and just stopped his punches short of contact.
But it's no use talking to you because you haven't got the faintest idea of what Wing Chun deflections look like.

 

[Hanzou]

Again , they were deflections not slaps.

Maybe the Wing Chun guy thought he didn't have to punch the guys face in to prove a point and just stopped his punches short of contact.
But it's no use talking to you because you haven't got the faintest idea of what Wing Chun deflections look like.

Or maybe the Wing Chun guy lacks power in his strikes?

This isn't the first time I've seen a "Wing Chun" person fight like this. Check this out;

Slap-Fu literally looks like someone who watched a Kung Fu movie, and tried to copy the movements.

 

[mook jong man]

Or maybe the Wing Chun guy lacks power in his strikes?

This isn't the first time I've seen a "Wing Chun" person fight like this. Check this out;

Slap-Fu literally looks like someone who watched a Kung Fu movie, and tried to copy the movements.

Yes , and I've seen Wing Chun people who generate massive striking power.
First hand , not on YouTube.
So your point is.

Although a great resource , YouTube can be cherry picked to support whatever particular bias you may have.

With enough digging around I'm sure we could come up with examples of incompetent boxers , incompetent BJJ practitioners , incompetent MMA people and yes....... incompetent Wing Chun practitioners.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes , and I've seen Wing Chun people who generate massive striking power.
First hand , not on YouTube.
So your point is.

They're never on Youtube.

Yet I can find plenty of boxers, BJJers, Wrestlers, Judokas, etc. on youtube doing what they do best.

Funny how that works.

Although a great resource , YouTube can be cherry picked to support whatever particular bias you may have.

With enough digging around I'm sure we could come up with examples of incompetent boxers , incompetent BJJ practitioners , incompetent MMA people and yes....... incompetent Wing Chun practitioners.

Yet with Wing Chun or other traditional styles, you can't find the counter example?

Here's some more slap fu, straight from China;

And this is HARD CORE FULL CONTACT.