What is MMA?

[Kensai]

I tried to add this to my post but the time limit expired.

MMA is a combination of styles proven to work in real fights. Most prevalent are BJJ, Muay Thai, wrestling and boxing, but there are others as well. Some criticize MMA (as a style) for being the product of rule bound fights. It is true that some aspects of fighting are ignored, but the fact is a well rounded fighter will defeat someone relying on a "death touch" to win a fight. This is what MMA (as its own style) is all about.

Rule bound fights are also the only way to consistently analyze fights and therefore be able to draw factual conclusions about what works and what does not. This can't be done with stories about street fights that happend to a friend of a friend. MMA tournaments have provided a means to this end, and have led to big advances in fighiting styles.

Whilst I think the underlying principal of MMA is a great idea, and one worthy of the future, I don't think that this statement is 100% accurate. Rule bound fights give you the opportunity to analyse rule bound fights, and act as a test bed to a certain degree.

However, that aside, I like the underlying principle of MMA, even though I don't study it. There is validity in most arts to a greater or lesser extent, but I also think that most have them changed in some way, either being affected by politics in China, or turned into point scoring sports as in certain karate styles.

I think that there is still a great deal of ignorance of other styles in most arts, regardless of background, and I'm sure that the more TMA often look down on MMA, I don't subscribe to that, it does nark me a little bit when some MMA guys think that the only way to do MA, or test moves is by having 2 200lb professional athletes smacking lumps out of each other, and that everyone else is a pansy for not doing it. Both views are equally misguided. IMHO.

 

[ChinJiNing]

This all sounds like JKD to me ...

 

[Marvin]

This all sounds like JKD to me ...

In theory yes, but sometimes indviduals will forsake functionality for aesthetic.

 

[Odin]

MMA is simple the evolution of all martial Arts.
Its th sharing of knowlege and practical apllication carried over from all martial arts and put together into a style with no stlye comabt.

 

[kingkong89]

anyone who is considered a mix martial artist is simply one who studies more than one art. when they go to compotition they dont have to say there study is MMA they could list there best study if they wanted to hope it was helpfull

 

[kaliador]

MMA is crappy selfdefence. They spend 95 % of the time on the ground, and that is not smart i selfdefence. What about the dud`s friend standing around?

MMA is spesialiced as a SPORT, nothing more and nothing less...

 

[Andrew Green]

lol - Yup, 95% on the ground. I take it you are quite the fan to hit that statistic?

 

[Marvin]

MMA is crappy selfdefence. They spend 95 % of the time on the ground, and that is not smart i selfdefence. What about the dud`s friend standing around?

MMA is spesialiced as a SPORT, nothing more and nothing less...

Hi Kaliador, welcome to the forums!

 

[zDom]

...It is not about following a specific style, or a specific instructor...it is not about memorizing terms or repeating "forms"...no list of techniques, no terms to remember, no testing, instead there is just hard work, sweat and experimental learning.

We don't wear rank, we don't even have rank, it just isn't necessary, or even compatible with what we do. Rank gives a hierarchy, it tells you who gets to tell who they are right or wrong in what they are doing. This is not the way we feel progress can be made, how can you work as a team when you have such a visible hierarchy? Why can't that white belt (that happens to have several years wrestling) contribute to the black belts understanding of takedowns?...Instead of asking ourselves what techniques we need to memorize to get the next belt, we ask ourselves what we need to work on to improve ourselves, not in the eyes of a examiner, but on the mats, in practice, not in theory...There is no 100 year old curriculum handed down from some old master on the other side of the world that has never been critically examined since...We don't progress according to a checklist and when an examiner says we do, we progress based on our own development and our own effort. There is a range of skill levels, you can think of it as a long line if you like...There are no preset roadmarks along the way, there can't be. ... We can't put speed limits on progress, and that is exactly what a belt system with time restricted / based testing does.

We don't limit ourselves to what has been done, instead we are interested in what could be done. We are constantly looking for better ways, if we find a problem in what we are doing we work to fix it....

"Fine, I'll get my own lunar lander...with blackjack...and hookers! In fact, forget the lunar lander and the blackjack!" --- Bender the Robot.

Science was stuck in the dark ages for a long time because of this sort of thinking, and the Martial Arts should not repeat that mistake.

True, but:

Scientists today still go through grade school, high school, college. You can't get much advanced science done if each scientist has to discover gravity and basic math by themselves.

What is so wrong with a curriculum that gives you a solid base --- and THEN you move on to advanced science, i.e., finding out what works best for the individual?

To me, it sounds like you advocate reducing all grade school down to, for example,

"2+2 = 4.

and 2 x 2 = 4

Blue + Yellow = green.

The United States is on the continent of North America

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP (the rest of the letters just really aren't all that effective so just stick with these)"

OK: now lets get to work on that cure of cancer!


You say "no list of techniques, no terms to remember" and then turn around and -- four posts later! list basics YOU think are important along with terms people must know:

Basics would include things like

Seperated - footwork, jab, cross, hook, front kick, round kick, catching punches, covering up, checking kicks, Shooting, Sprawling, etc.

Clinch - Digging for underhooks, controlling the head, arm drags, duck unders, body locks, shucking, controling the hips, backsteps, back arches, etc

Ground - Mount escapes, side mount escapes, getting back to feet, passing guard, sweeps, defending strikes from bottom, submissions, etc.

I agree "hard work, sweat" are critical elements, but MMA practitioners aren't the only ones out there putting in "hard work, sweat."

I guess my point is: can't you define MMA without pointing your finger at TMA and saying "We are better than THOSE guys!"?

 

[Rook]

"Fine, I'll get my own lunar lander...with blackjack...and hookers! In fact, forget the lunar lander and the blackjack!" --- Bender the Robot.




True, but:

Scientists today still go through grade school, high school, college. You can't get much advanced science done if each scientist has to discover gravity and basic math by themselves.

What is so wrong with a curriculum that gives you a solid base --- and THEN you move on to advanced science, i.e., finding out what works best for the individual?

To me, it sounds like you advocate reducing all grade school down to, for example,

"2+2 = 4.

and 2 x 2 = 4

Blue + Yellow = green.

The United States is on the continent of North America

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP (the rest of the letters just really aren't all that effective so just stick with these)"

OK: now lets get to work on that cure of cancer!


You say "no list of techniques, no terms to remember" and then turn around and -- four posts later! list basics YOU think are important along with terms people must know:


I agree "hard work, sweat" are critical elements, but MMA practitioners aren't the only ones out there putting in "hard work, sweat."

I guess my point is: can't you define MMA without pointing your finger at TMA and saying "We are better than THOSE guys!"?

What he means is that all technique names are in English in American schools or in the native language of whatever country. Few people bother with the Portuguese or japanese names of techniques. You don't have to memorize the cultural names of techniques.

We end up having to repeatedly explain MMA in contrast to TMA because people keep trying to blur the lines between the two in the hopes that no one will question what they are doing.

 

[Eternal Beginner]

What he means is that all technique names are in English in American schools or in the native language of whatever country. Few people bother with the Portuguese or japanese names of techniques. You don't have to memorize the cultural names of techniques.

We end up having to repeatedly explain MMA in contrast to TMA because people keep trying to blur the lines between the two in the hopes that no one will question what they are doing.

This is a wee bit off topic, but to address terminology issues I don't know if it is necessarily a bad thing to have like-minded people who are doing like-minded activities having a common vocabulary, be it Japanese, Portuguese or English. They do it in music (Italian), they do it in ballet (french), and in medicine to a certain extent with latin.

What I have seen happening is all of these guys doing the same thing and giving them bizarre names so nobody is quite sure what they are talking about without pictures. Makes sharing and discussing things difficult and wastes a lot of time when you could just say "you know manouver A" and then move onto to actual progress.

Again, not a fundamental issue in the "rightness" or "wrongness" of TMA or MMA...just an observation.

 

[zDom]

I think both sides of this "TMA/MMA" line (including me, at times) are doing WAY too much generalization.

For example, 98 percent of all the terminology I have been taught in both TKD and HKD has all been in English!

There are a couple of sets of techniques in HKD that I must also know the Korean names for ALSO (we usually refer to them with their English names) -- but this is extremely useful knowledge when communicating with students from other hapkido organizations.

And on the MMA side of things, I see a lot of differences in opinion among MMA stylists on what constitutes "MMA."

You can be sure that as more and more MMA gyms are established and the number of people making money of MMA begins to grow, so will the differences between MMA gyms.

 

[Eternal Beginner]

I think both sides of this "TMA/MMA" line (including me, at times) are doing WAY too much generalization.

For example, 98 percent of all the terminology I have been taught in both TKD and HKD has all been in English!

There are a couple of sets of techniques in HKD that I must also know the Korean names for ALSO (we usually refer to them with their English names) -- but this is extremely useful knowledge when communicating with students from other hapkido organizations.

And on the MMA side of things, I see a lot of differences in opinion among MMA stylists on what constitutes "MMA."

You can be sure that as more and more MMA gyms are established and the number of people making money of MMA begins to grow, so will the differences between MMA gyms.

You have that right!! I know guys who train and fight MMA who scoff at so-called "MMA gyms" in our city. Are they right? Who is to say. The whole concept of MMA is flexible and usually the people who argue the loudest for what it is are just trying to convince people to accept their definition of what MMA is.

There is no universal truth as to the definition of MMA.

 

[tatsu dynamo]

I agree. the original basis of mma competition was directly to put style against style and see who comes out on top. any one who tries to put a direct style on mma is out of thier mind. and in basis there is no style of mma. the closest "style" of any mma is the original principles of jkd. but now that has even been catagorized as a style which is totaly wrong. true mma or jkd art was ment for adaptation to all fighting methods what style came through was one made by your own mind and body or better put as your own original way of fighting which everyone has. the key point is everyone is diffrent and has a diffrent way of doing anything. immitation is the lowest form of self worth. if you are to busy mimicing someone like bruce lee or ken shamrock for example you are not finding your self in martial arts. and thats the most important goal.

 

[kaizasosei]

Well, it is a name, and nothing more. As soon as you start trying to define it into a "styl" you have missed the point entirely. It is not about following a specific style, or a specific instructor. It is about training the individual to be the best they can be, as an individual.

In MMA the objective is not to look a certain way, or rely on certain techniques, it is not about memorizing terms or repeating "forms", no what it is about is improvement and performance in a live environment. There is no list of techniques, no terms to remember, no testing, instead there is just hard work, sweat and experimental learning.

We don't wear rank, we don't even have rank, it just isn't necessary, or even compatible with what we do. Rank gives a hierarchy, it tells you who gets to tell who they are right or wrong in what they are doing. This is not the way we feel progress can be made, how can you work as a team when you have such a visible hierarchy? Why can't that white belt (that happens to have several years wrestling) contribute to the black belts understanding of takedowns?

When you train with people regularly you learn very quickly who is capable of what, what strengths / weaknesses each person has, and who can help you get better at different things. 2 minutes of sparring can tell you far more about a persons skill then a coloured belt and stack of certificates ever could.

So what is it we do?

Well, we train, we learn, and we sweat. Instead of asking ourselves what techniques we need to memorize to get the next belt, we ask ourselves what we need to work on to improve ourselves, not in the eyes of a examiner, but on the mats, in practice, not in theory.

We do this by constantly reassessing what we are doing, why we are doing it and how we can do it better. There is no 100 year old curriculum handed down from some old master on the other side of the world that has never been critically examined since. We wouldn't accept that in an applied science class, and Martial Arts training is an applied science.

We don't progress according to a checklist and when an examiner says we do, we progress based on our own development and our own effort. There is a range of skill levels, you can think of it as a long line if you like. Everyone starts at a different point, and not everyone can reach the same point along that line. What is important is that as we train we move up that line, and keep moving up it. There are no preset roadmarks along the way, there can't be. Not without discouraging some and limiting the rest. We can't put speed limits on progress, and that is exactly what a belt system with time restricted / based testing does.

We don't limit ourselves to what has been done, instead we are interested in what could be done. We are constantly looking for better ways, if we find a problem in what we are doing we work to fix it, not ignore as "Not a part of our style". Science was stuck in the dark ages for a long time because of this sort of thinking, and the Martial Arts should not repeat that mistake. Aristotle was brilliant, but his work has been improved on by many generations of scientists. Many of the old masters where undoubtedly brilliant martial artists as well, and their work has been improved on as well.

One of the biggest concerns many who do not know much about MMA has is often safety, and how hard it is on the body, that it is only for young athletic people. But this is simply not true. What we do is about moving forward and finding better ways to do things. This is in all aspects of training, including staying healthy and not getting hurt. We do not restrict ourselves to sports training methods from 100 years ago, instead we look to modern sports science for training methods and healthy training practices.

MMA training can be perfectly safe, and it can also be taken to a competitive level and into rings. But so can any other sport. Karate has bare knuckle full contact competitions, Tae Kwon Do goes full contact in competitions, Kung fu is the same. You can start with flag football and go all the way to the NFL too. Not everyone is capable of competing at the top level, in fact most people would get hurt if they tried, but this is the same in any sport. But everyone is capable of training, learning, exercising and having fun in a very safe environment.

The other objection many have is with the restrictions of competitions. No multiple attackers, no weapons, etc. But that is competition, not training. All of those things can be brought into the gym and experimented on. Playing basketball is not restricted to 5 on 5. Games get played all over the world with different numbers, uneven numbers, only one net, etc. MMA training is no different, just because it isn't a part of competition does not mean we are somehow magically prevented from doing it in training.

The last objection I want to look at is the "mental" aspect of training. Which again comes from those that are programmed into a certain way of thinking. If your doctor is not using herbs and leaches is he not practicing medicine? So why is it that if we aren't talking about mystical energies we are not talking about mental training? Sports Psychology is a large field that goes into very great depth on mental training, has been subjected to tests and built upon those "traditional" methods.

The mental aspect of what we do is huge, in fact it is as important if not more so then the physical parts. It is the reason a much smaller, weaker person can consistently defeat larger, stronger, more aggressive ones. To say that it isn't there is silly.

The other thing is as I have been explaining MMA is about growth and improvement. These things require critical thinking skills, without them they are impossible. What we do is not just mindlessly memorize and repeat patterns like drones, it is about constantly and critically evaluating everything we do.

I hope this helps to clear up some of the questions out there on what exactly it is MMA is about, and what we do. We are plagued by more myths and misconceptions then truths it sometimes seems.
__________________

you have thoroughly convinced me. won my vote. i feel like i've just been converted... MMA it is. i really should find a community of people who are mma, because from what you're saying, i take it that many people are closet mma. - i trained with mma people in japan for a while. i think it is practically therapeutic to just go at it from time to time. after all, one truly should practice to defending and attacking movements from any position.


not to do harm or even concentrate on 'fighting' or competition, but to experience different realistic situations in the science of martial arts.

actually i do know of a group of freefighters...i will have to go check it out sometime soon.



j

 

[kaizasosei]

well, sortof lame replying to one of my own old posts....but i would like to share my experiences with mma. like i said i would, i'm sortof in the process of joining up this place that trains mma with a most excellent trainer and master of life, in my opinion. There are other diciplines also trained there like traditional kickboxing, krav maga, boxing and bjj.

ok, here's the deal, i came to this place for a couple of reasons; one being that i wanted to test my skills and techniques on tough fighters. another is that i want to see what other people can do and seek challenges. thirdly, i was hoping it would give me the inspiration to rebuild my weak muscles and skinny shape into something a bit more solid-not to mention flexible and allround good shape.
fourth reason would be to heal my hurt soul from all the psychoterror of those martists that dont even spar OR have the sense to be kind and fair to one other. ****, there was one more reason i thought of but im drinking this really raunchy protein shake right now which caused me to forget.

ok, but the point is, i realize that this type of sparing is totally different that other martial arts.- sure, there are people from various backgrounds, for example my sparring partner from today was from the national team judo blackbelt. others i believe have other backgrounds, like boxing or some not martial, like weightlifting. whatever, what im trying to get at is that when we go at it and spar-without striking- only submissionwrestling and takedowns, then everyone is sortof the same. it's something natural in a way. the techniques of mma are very direct and powerful, allowing little room for error. - although i have been in many martial arts settings, never have i encountered such realistic and challenging sparing. i have the feeling, that many of my best grappling moves do not work so well against a ready and powerful opponent.
there are some other issues too, that technique must be executed swiftly and at the right time in the right spirit...but still, i know what im talking about, physical strength and the sheer willpower involved in some of the techniques im talking about, play a big role.

the reason i chose freefight, and i think i remember now my other point, is that one is relatively free. with, grappling only, this is not so, so i do believe that the inclusion of striking would give me much more of an edge, however, that's always risky and the grappling alone can be fairly dangerous.

but do you get what im getting at, all my volumes of aiki techniques, chin na- seemed very ineffective against really sweaty and alert opponents. not saying that the moves dont work, -but im thinking it's the same conclusion i came to after wrestling with a wrestler,- what Ueshibasensei said, 'atemi(striking) should account for 70% of aikido'

arm strength is also definately a factor. because of the tension, hyperalertness and brute strength, many techniques are quite difficult if not impossible to execute. perhaps, with more setups etc, im sure there are ways,,but these are forces to be reckoned with.

one move i found to be quite excellent and should be included in mma, is the bujinkan move called ransetsu- i first attempted to head straight to mount but was once overturned by more powerful partner, so i decided to followup with an anklelock- and it works. checkit out if you're interested.

j

 

[kaizasosei]

well, sortof lame replying to one of my own old posts....but i would like to share my experiences with mma. like i said i would, i'm sortof in the process of joining up this place that trains mma with a most excellent trainer and master of life, in my opinion. There are other diciplines also trained there like traditional kickboxing, krav maga, boxing and bjj.

ok, here's the deal, i came to this place for a couple of reasons; one being that i wanted to test my skills and techniques on tough fighters. another is that i want to see what other people can do and seek challenges. thirdly, i was hoping it would give me the inspiration to rebuild my weak muscles and skinny shape into something a bit more solid-not to mention flexible and allround good shape.
fourth reason would be to heal my hurt soul from all the psychoterror of those martists that dont even spar OR have the sense to be kind and fair to one other. ****, there was one more reason i thought of but im drinking this really raunchy protein shake right now which caused me to forget.

ok, but the point is, i realize that this type of sparing is totally different that other martial arts.- sure, there are people from various backgrounds, for example my sparring partner from today was from the national team judo blackbelt. others i believe have other backgrounds, like boxing or some not martial, like weightlifting. whatever, what im trying to get at is that when we go at it and spar-without striking- only submissionwrestling and takedowns, then everyone is sortof the same. it's something natural in a way. the techniques of mma are very direct and powerful, allowing little room for error. - although i have been in many martial arts settings, never have i encountered such realistic and challenging sparing. i have the feeling, that many of my best grappling moves do not work so well against a ready and powerful opponent.
there are some other issues too, that technique must be executed swiftly and at the right time in the right spirit...but still, i know what im talking about, physical strength and the sheer willpower involved in some of the techniques im talking about, play a big role.

the reason i chose freefight, and i think i remember now my other point, is that one is relatively free. with, grappling only, this is not so, so i do believe that the inclusion of striking would give me much more of an edge, however, that's always risky and the grappling alone can be fairly dangerous.

but do you get what im getting at, all my volumes of aiki techniques, chin na- seemed very ineffective against really sweaty and alert opponents. not saying that the moves dont work, -but im thinking it's the same conclusion i came to after wrestling with a wrestler,- what Ueshibasensei said, 'atemi(striking) should account for 70% of aikido'

arm strength is also definately a factor. because of the tension, hyperalertness and brute strength, many techniques are quite difficult if not impossible to execute. perhaps, with more setups etc, im sure there are ways,,but these are forces to be reckoned with.

one move i found to be quite excellent and should be included in mma, is the bujinkan move called hisaku- i first attempted to head straight to mount but was once overturned by more powerful partner, so i decided to followup with an anklelock- and it works. checkit out if you're interested.

j

jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjcorrection above-bbt move i meant to write was hisaku-not ransetsu...

 

[kailat]

this is fun. Because way back in the 80's when I started the term Mixed Martial Arts was used but it was a term that generally lumped many different arts together rather than a particular TMA.

Today the term MMA is made up of merely;
1. Stand up
a) Boxing -Western- Brawling- NHB
b) Kickboxing- Traditional-San Sau-Muay Thai (concepts)
2. Grappling-Ground Fighting
a) BJJ
b) Wrestling-Catch as Catch can- Greco/Roman style
c) Ground and Pound

" to me that pretty much makes up the sport side of MMA that most of the general public would define as MMA"

To refine what I was saying earlier when I was a young Karate-ka the term Mix Martial Arts that we had in our school was made up of;

A) American Karate-Do
B) Chung Do Kwan TKD
C) Filipino Kali-Eskrima-Arnis
D) Silat from Malaysia and Indonesia
E) French Savate
F) Kickboxing Muay Thai and Karate style
G) Jeet Kune Do Concepts/ Jun Fan Gung Fu

All these were the make up of my first original Karate school. Which was actually called Armstrongs Mixed Martial Arts-Self Defense Dojo.

It actually taught all these systems seperate and combined as one. We had different classes that seperated them. It was 1985 and that term MMA was tossed around.. But if you were asked then and showed what MMA was gonna turn into today we would of all been in awe probably..

LOL

 

[Indie12]

MMA is simply a catch-all term for martial arts that have become sporting competition.

Pretty much sums it up!!! MMA is pure Sport, nothing more, nothing less!!!

 

[Indie12]

this is fun. Because way back in the 80's when I started the term Mixed Martial Arts was used but it was a term that generally lumped many different arts together rather than a particular TMA.

Today the term MMA is made up of merely;
1. Stand up
a) Boxing -Western- Brawling- NHB
b) Kickboxing- Traditional-San Sau-Muay Thai (concepts)
2. Grappling-Ground Fighting
a) BJJ
b) Wrestling-Catch as Catch can- Greco/Roman style
c) Ground and Pound

" to me that pretty much makes up the sport side of MMA that most of the general public would define as MMA"

To refine what I was saying earlier when I was a young Karate-ka the term Mix Martial Arts that we had in our school was made up of;

A) American Karate-Do
B) Chung Do Kwan TKD
C) Filipino Kali-Eskrima-Arnis
D) Silat from Malaysia and Indonesia
E) French Savate
F) Kickboxing Muay Thai and Karate style
G) Jeet Kune Do Concepts/ Jun Fan Gung Fu

All these were the make up of my first original Karate school. Which was actually called Armstrongs Mixed Martial Arts-Self Defense Dojo.

It actually taught all these systems seperate and combined as one. We had different classes that seperated them. It was 1985 and that term MMA was tossed around.. But if you were asked then and showed what MMA was gonna turn into today we would of all been in awe probably..

LOL

Quiet a list of systems in your school, are you an instructor for all of them or did you have other instructors of certain systems teach there also?

BTW: good assessment of MMA, sport!