What if an Electric Car could go 500 miles and charge in one hour?

[Steve]

What about a smart phone with a week's worth of battery power and a charging time of about 15 minutes?

Would you like it then? http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2011/11/batteries-energy-kung.html

These squints are working on an electrode that would allow Li-Ion batteries to store up to 10 times more energy and charge up to 10 times faster. Pretty interesting stuff.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What about a smart phone with a week's worth of battery power and a charging time of about 15 minutes?

Would you like it then? http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2011/11/batteries-energy-kung.html

These squints are working on an electrode that would allow Li-Ion batteries to store up to 10 times more energy and charge up to 10 times faster. Pretty interesting stuff.

I don't care how far it goes or how quickly it charges up. I care how much it costs per mile to operate. That is all. If it costs less than driving my $500 eBay special then yay. If not, then boo. Everything I decide is based off that. I don't give two rips about anything except how much it costs me per mile to operate and the upfront expense.

 

[elder999]

What about a smart phone with a week's worth of battery power and a charging time of about 15 minutes?

Would you like it then? http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2011/11/batteries-energy-kung.html

These squints are working on an electrode that would allow Li-Ion batteries to store up to 10 times more energy and charge up to 10 times faster. Pretty interesting stuff.

"Squint???"

 

[granfire]

"Squint???"

people who have ruined their eyes by staring a computers all day long....

 

[Steve]

I don't care how far it goes or how quickly it charges up. I care how much it costs per mile to operate. That is all. If it costs less than driving my $500 eBay special then yay. If not, then boo. Everything I decide is based off that. I don't give two rips about anything except how much it costs me per mile to operate and the upfront expense.

Well, shoot. I can tell you I paid 2.7 cents per mile on average during the Summer. Now that the weather has dropped, I'm averaging $ .4 /mile. I paid an average of $ .16 / mile in my Mazda 5.

Cost per mile isn't even close. There is no question that EV is significantly cheaper. And in a few years, they'll start showing up in the used market, too.

But damn... 500 miles on a charge with a 1 hour charging time. That's pretty significant, in my opinion.

 

[Steve]

"Squint???"

It's from the TV show Bones. Squints are what he calls the scientists. As Granfire said, it's because they stare at small things all day long with furrowed brows.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Well, shoot. I can tell you I paid 2.7 cents per mile on average during the Summer. Now that the weather has dropped, I'm averaging $ .4 /mile. I paid an average of $ .16 / mile in my Mazda 5.

Cost per mile isn't even close. There is no question that EV is significantly cheaper. And in a few years, they'll start showing up in the used market, too.

But damn... 500 miles on a charge with a 1 hour charging time. That's pretty significant, in my opinion.

Nope, that's not cost per mile. Factor in the cost of the vehicle, taxes, insurance, maintenance, and anything else that I have to pay and divide that by the miles per year driven. Then I do the same to mine. That's cost per mile. The price of electricity doesn't impact it that greatly when my vehicle is already amortized.

 

[Steve]

Nope, that's not cost per mile. Factor in the cost of the vehicle, taxes, insurance, maintenance, and anything else that I have to pay and divide that by the miles per year driven. Then I do the same to mine. That's cost per mile. The price of electricity doesn't impact it that greatly when my vehicle is already amortized.

Yes, Bill. It is. We've been through this before.

If a car is produced that goes 500 miles on a charge and charges in one hour, it will become a used car over time.

So, true apples to apples would be MSRP new, plus maintenance (or actual or projected) costs, plus fuel costs over the lifetime of the vehicle, adjusted to today's dollars (for comparison purposes). What was the cost per mile over the life of your car, including the new purchase price, adjusted for inflation? If you want apples to apples, THAT'S how to do it. While I understand that your personal budget works a little differently, frankly, it's irrelevant to this discussion because we don't all live with you. It can be presumed that some of these cars will be sold as used cars over time. EVERY new car becomes a used car. And they depreciate in value. That's not unique to any car.

In other words, factor in the cost of the vehicle brand new, taxes, and maintenance over the lifetime of your car, and do the same for mine.

Or as a convenient shorthand, you can compare a car to similiarly priced cars within the same general category of vehicle, ie, SUV, mid sized sedan, minivan, etc. In this case, compared to Civics, Focuses, Mazda 3's wagons, and Golfs, among others, the price per mile is easily calculated based on mileage and the prevalent fuel prices. Regardless of what you paid for it, if your car gets 25 miles per gallon, you're paying about $ .16 /mile. And at $.11/kwh, I pay about 4 cents per mile.

Make sense?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Yes, Bill. It is. We've been through this before.

If a car is produced that goes 500 miles on a charge and charges in one hour, it will become a used car over time.

Yes. It remains to be seen if the batteries will need to be replaced by the time the car is used. I rather suspect that as cars shift to electric models, used cars will become essentially non-existent; they'll be intended to be disposable, since a good portion of the cost of the car is tied up in the batteries. It's like used laptops; the problem is not that they are slow, the problem is their batteries will no longer hold a charge, and replacements cost so much, there's no point in buying them.

Make sense?

Sure. Except that I won't be buying any new cars. The electrics will have to get down to $500 total cost before I could or would buy one, and I'm not then going to go out and spend $20K on a new battery pack for them. Hopefully, internal combustion will be around until I'm not driving anymore. Nothing against electric; just don't' think it will ever be cost-effective for me.

 

[ballen0351]

I think it would be cool and at some point in the not so far and distant future all cars will be this way. BUT until I no longer have the choice there is nothing better then a well tuned Carb on top of a big old V8.

 

[Steve]

Yes. It remains to be seen if the batteries will need to be replaced by the time the car is used. I rather suspect that as cars shift to electric models, used cars will become essentially non-existent; they'll be intended to be disposable, since a good portion of the cost of the car is tied up in the batteries. It's like used laptops; the problem is not that they are slow, the problem is their batteries will no longer hold a charge, and replacements cost so much, there's no point in buying them.

could be and something worth considering. But even now, early in the development, the batteries are being constructed in such a way that they can be replaced easily and as discrete modules. In other words, it's not one big, giant battery that powers the EV. Rather, it's thousands of individual battery packs, designed to be replaced singly if it fails. Also, don't forget that the entire point of this thread is that there is significant research being done in battery technology. There is every reason to believe that significant improvements in batteries will be made over the next few years should demand warrant.

Sure. Except that I won't be buying any new cars.

That's my point. Your budget will not change, and certainly that's relevant to you and your wife. But it's irrelevant to the larger discussion at hand. We can't draw any useful conclusions based on your specific, household spending habits.

The electrics will have to get down to $500 total cost before I could or would buy one, and I'm not then going to go out and spend $20K on a new battery pack for them. Hopefully, internal combustion will be around until I'm not driving anymore. Nothing against electric; just don't' think it will ever be cost-effective for me.

And that is precisely the point of this thread. If the cost of ownership for an EV is 1/4th that of a comparable ICE, particularly if the range issues are adequately addressed, even you might be won over.

Once again, I'm not saying that this is smart or wise for you now. Clearly, it's not. I'm thinking 10 or 15 years down the road.

Ballen, that's a personal aesthetic, but I'll tell you that the instant torque and smooth acceleration of an EV is addictive. And I even like the winding up of the electric motor.

 

[Carol]

Overall cost is still a factor (I can't drive something I can't afford), but I am psyched to see work going in to expanding the range. That would certainly take away a big barrier for me personally.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

...particularly if the range issues are adequately addressed, even you might be won over.

Just want to make it clear, I have no personal interest in what powers my automobile, gasoline or electricity. I'm agnostic. I only care about final dollar cost per mile and my budget. Nothing else matters to me.

 

[Steve]

Just want to make it clear, I have no personal interest in what powers my automobile, gasoline or electricity. I'm agnostic. I only care about final dollar cost per mile and my budget. Nothing else matters to me.

I hope it's clear that I get that and completely understand.

 

[Steve]

Overall cost is still a factor (I can't drive something I can't afford), but I am psyched to see work going in to expanding the range. That would certainly take away a big barrier for me personally.

No doubt, Carol. Mitsubishi has a car in the $20k range, but the only way the cost of the vehicles goes down is either through expansion of market share or showing up in the used car lots.

I'd really like to see extended range, myself.

 

[ballen0351]

Ballen, that's a personal aesthetic, but I'll tell you that the instant torque and smooth acceleration of an EV is addictive. And I even like the winding up of the electric motor.

My Fav hobby is rock crawling and 4x4 offroading. I wonder how well the batteries would hold up to that

 

[ballen0351]

Orange jeep is not mine just first rock crawing pic I saw

 

[frank raud]

Any thoughts on how to generate all the additional electricity to charge these batteries powered cars as they become more common?

 

[Steve]

Any thoughts on how to generate all the additional electricity to charge these batteries powered cars as they become more common?

That is an excellent question and there are a couple of different answers. The first answer is that we already do. One possible solution is in storage. Enough electricity is generated throughout the country every night and discarded during off peak times to completely address this issue. Most EVs are charged at night, when electricity is actually being generated in excess of what we can store. In other words, it's electricity that would be thrown away, anyway.

With smart grids, the potential is to kill two birds with one stone. One of the most interesting proposals I've seen is to set the EVs up so that they can discharge back to the grid. In other words, I could purchase the electricity at night, when it's very cheap (say about $ .4 per kwh). And then, if I'm hibernating at home during the day, I could actually choose to discharge that electricity back to the grid at a higher, price during peak usage, when the grid needs it. The tech is already here to do this. Right now, it's just about upgrading electrical infrastructure. This is particularly true as you get further West.

Here in Washington, much of our electricity is from Hydro, and the water runs no matter what. Wind and solar are others where we are feast or famine subject and can get much more out of them if we can improve storage. With EVs on the road, they can serve as mobile, community owned storage devices, expanding the capacity to store wasted energy at night while at the same time contributing energy to the grid during the day while at peak usage.

Making the cars more efficient, and also accounting for the reduction in electricity consumed in the process of refining oil basically eliminates any concerns regarding capacity.

I want to qualify the statements above, I'm not an expert, but I've been reading up on this stuff. From everything I've read, there is plenty of electricity available.

Edit: Just did a quick google and this article puts the wasted potential from Wind at 25 tWh. http://cleantechnica.com/2011/03/27/25-twh-of-wind-power-idled-in-2010-in-us-grid-storage-needed/

That's a crapload.

 

[Steve]

Ballen, I don't know jack about rock crawling. Looks like fun, though. Again, the torque is there. I don't know if water would be an issue. I'm pretty sure nothing electric exists right now that can do that. Closest thing I can think of is the Toyota Rav 4 EV that's coming out. They released a Rav4 EV back in 2002, many which are still on the road. But I don't think those are built like the Jeeps in your pictures.