What do you think of this

[SolidTiger]

Originally posted by Monkey King



I find it interesting that so many people make judgements based on semantics. I was a Shaolin-do practitioner for 6 years. Average time to reach 1st black is 5.

I can fill you all in on your questions. I've read the so-called "extensive" discussions on all the sites and they all seem to have your issue; why a chinese art with a japanese name? Let me explain.

1st - Shaolin-do's history is based on the lineage of the southern Shaolin temple in the Fukien province. Hence the "wookie" as mentioned before was born with Hypertrichosis, that disease that gives you excess body hair. The story goes that he was dumped at the gates of the southern temple by his parents who thought they gave birth to a demon.

This is a well said defense, the story at the end is a little crazy.

Thank you

SolidTiger



The Seven Shao-lin Temples:
Honan (most famous), Fukien, Shantung, Omei Shan, Kwang Tung, Wu-Tang, & Hua Mountain
Southern temple: Fukien Shao-lin Temple, Lin Ch'uan Yuan Putien County
Grandmasters:

Su Kong T'ai Djin - (1849 - 1928) (the wookie)
Last grandmaster when the temple was destroyed by the Ch'ing Kwang Hsu Emperor--beginning of the 20th century.

Ie Chang Ming - (1880 - 1968)
Disciple and Successor to Su Kong T'ai Djin. Also one of the last surviving monks at the Fukien temple before it was burned to the ground. Fled to Indonesia when persecuted by soldiers.

Sin Kwang The´ - (1943 - Present)
Current Grandmaster and Successor to Ie Chang Ming. Also from the Fukien province.

Sin The learned from Ie Chang Ming in Indonesia where Japanese political influence was prominant. You all know the hatred between the japanese and the Chinese at the time.

So in order to continue to teach, and not be persecuted, Ie Chang Ming donned the Japanese style of uniform and ranking. He called the art Shaolin-Do, The way of the Shaolin, since many of his students were indonesian or Japanese. He had few chinese students since the chinese were not liked. It simply stuck to this day.

It doesn't get any easier than that.

When Sin The' first started the school in Kentucky, there was discussion as to whether or not they should use the traditional style uniform commonly seen with kung fu schools. In fact, they even tried them. But they found the traditional karate gi was more durable so they chose to stay with it. The Japanese ranking system made the most sense.

They are not secret, and there are no contracts to sign.

Just an injury waiver. The forms or katas are plenty, as are the weapons training.

There is alot of information which may explain the lack luster technique in the brown belt class.

You see, when they test, they have to test on all forms and techniques form white belt on; everytime they test, for every belt. it never stops. Not like some schools that let you forsake the earlier teachings when you test.

When they practice, everyone from white belt on up goes over everything as a warm up.

I would agree that at times there seems to be too much crammed into a practice but they believe that everyone will practice on their own as well. By the time one reaches 1st black, (usually in 5 years) one would hopefully have either mastered the basics or perform them with great skill. But as you all know, everyone's learning curve is different.

They have light and full contact sparring in every class. Glove sparring for the black belts only. As also blindfolded tai chi sparring.

They are dedicated martial artists and work hard at what they do. They stick to the traditional chinese way of doing things as much as possible.

I was with them for 6 years and enjoyed every minute of it. I still practice all of the forms and weapons I learned, which are quite lengthy.

So before you all "Poo Poo" something you don't know that much about, I would suggest you visit a school, talk to an instructor and ask them your questions. You will find them quite amiable and willing to take the time with you.

Shaolin-Do is a chinese art in a Japanese gi...so what. I see chinese schools in sweats and t-shirts. If what you wear is criteria for legitimacy, then we are all in trouble.

Don't judge them, they are serious about their art, just like you.

http://www.shaolin-do.com/

 

[SolidTiger]

what I was trying to say this is a well said defense.

SolidTiger

 

[Damian Mavis]

I think some people put way too much thought into discrediting other peoples systems and way too much importance on legitimacy and history. I could care less if Bob Billy Bob makes an art in the year 2002 and he names it Bob Billy Bob's House O Pain...if it works than great.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Monkey King

I find it interesting that so many people make judgements based on semantics.

I have never criticized the name so much so as what I saw when I visited their school in Colorado Springs many years ago.

I was a Shaolin-do practitioner for 6 years. Average time to reach 1st black is 5.

Congratulations on your achievement. That is quite a lot of time to invest in any endeavor.

I can fill you all in on your questions. I've read the so-called "extensive" discussions on all the sites and they all seem to have your issue; why a chinese art with a japanese name? Let me explain.

Explanation snipped for length. Good explanation, and consistent with what all the SD proponents puts out in defense of their art.

Sin Kwang The´ - (1943 - Present)
Current Grandmaster and Successor to Ie Chang Ming. Also from the Fukien province.

This is a point that has been debated. Sin The's accession to this title is also debated, and I heard one arguement that Sin The's brother was in fact senior to him and if either of them was the "heir" to such a title, it would be the brother, not Sin The. Whatever. I don't care to go into this much detail of the discussion...

So in order to continue to teach, and not be persecuted, Ie Chang Ming donned the Japanese style of uniform and ranking. He called the art Shaolin-Do, The way of the Shaolin, since many of his students were indonesian or Japanese. He had few chinese students since the chinese were not liked. It simply stuck to this day.

When Sin The' first started the school in Kentucky, there was discussion as to whether or not they should use the traditional style uniform commonly seen with kung fu schools. In fact, they even tried them. But they found the traditional karate gi was more durable so they chose to stay with it. The Japanese ranking system made the most sense.

What uniform and belt is worn is of little concern to me. My school wears either Japanese or Chinese style uniforms, depending on a number of factors...

The forms or katas are plenty, as are the weapons training.

I personally find it hard to believe that any individual, "master" or not, can either know or master over 500 forms. That is what, I think, gets the question ball rolling for SD...

There is alot of information which may explain the lack luster technique in the brown belt class.

You seem to be referring specifically to a post I made against SD on www.e-budo.com a while back. I visited the Colorado Springs school, I think it was the home of two of Sin The's highest ranked instructors, and I watched a class of four brown belts perform the second most hideous display of pathetic martial technique I have ever been witness to... It was far from lackluster, and to allow students to be promoted to a senior grade with such a lack of skill speaks volumes of the orientation of a school.

You see, when they test, they have to test on all forms and techniques form white belt on; everytime they test, for every belt. it never stops. Not like some schools that let you forsake the earlier teachings when you test... When they practice, everyone from white belt on up goes over everything as a warm up.

So, too, does my school require performance on every skill developed, be it simple strike, kicks, throws, joint locks, forms, etc. They are not "warm ups," but actual testable material. This demands that a student continues training even in the basic material, and never allows for such material to go fallow... I congratulate you for having such a standard, but with over 500 forms to learn, that certainly must be time consuming during the evaluation...

By the time one reaches 1st black, (usually in 5 years) one would hopefully have either mastered the basics or perform them with great skill. But as you all know, everyone's learning curve is different.

Which goes back to my comment on the brown belts' performance. Having students whose next test(s) should place them at or very near black belt level, whose personal performance was of such poor quality, and saying that by the time someone reaches first black their skills should be of good quality, throws a questioning light on the standard of performance for that school. Perhaps what I witnessed was simpy the four worst students in the brown belt class. Perhaps they were newly promoted brown belts. Whatever the permutations of excuses for their poor performance, it caused me concern about the training standards of that school. I had no information about SD or the Soards at that time, and went there in complete good faith expecting to see quality martial arts being taught. Further, it was not until just a few years ago that I first learned of the controversy surrounding SD. So when I saw what I saw, the impression was made without the predjudice many others may have after being exposed to knowledge obtained from discussions on these, and other, boards.

They are dedicated martial artists and work hard at what they do. They stick to the traditional chinese way of doing things as much as possible. ... I was with them for 6 years and enjoyed every minute of it. I still practice all of the forms and weapons I learned, which are quite lengthy.

Good for you. Glad to know you are continuing with your training. Many students leave their original schools and forget everything they were taught. Congratulations for not falling victim to that eventuality... Did you have to move or relocate your training? Why are you no longer training with them? Do you train only in your prior SD methods, or have you found a new school to train at?

So before you all "Poo Poo" something you don't know that much about, I would suggest you visit a school, talk to an instructor and ask them your questions. You will find them quite amiable and willing to take the time with you.

I'm not "poo poo-ing" ever re-evaluating what I saw. Anytime I am somewhere new, I try to make time to visit all the schools I can find, if for no other reason that to foster friendship among different schools and styles. I took initial offense primarily to the displays I saw, then to the ridiculously large number of forms touted as standard training, and finally to the supposition that they claimed to teach Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua as complete systems. Perhaps as individual forms, okay, but not as systems...

Shaolin-Do is a chinese art in a Japanese gi...so what. I see chinese schools in sweats and t-shirts. If what you wear is criteria for legitimacy, then we are all in trouble.

I agree wholeheartedly on that point. What you wear means little compared to what you (can) do.

Don't judge them, they are serious about their art, just like you.

Not judging so much as commenting on what I saw. I apologize if it seemed that I had passed a final judgement incapable of reevaluation. :asian:

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :samurai:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

I think some people put way too much thought into discrediting other peoples systems and way too much importance on legitimacy and history.

I think purposely misleading the general public is not a good thing.
If your are going to claim legitimacy and lineage back to wherever then there should be enough evidence to support it.
Oddly enough the ones that are usually the most bogus make the most claims about lineage and legitimacy.
I met a guy last weekend that claims his art is Okinawan Jujutsu.
There is no such thing.
He also made some claim that the other art he is highly ranked in was descended from Samurai warriors and is a mixture of Okinawan Jujutsu/Kyokushin/something else/ something else.
I forgot the last 2 but they were just as goofy as the first 2.
Since there is no such thing as Okinawan JJ and Kyokushin was only made 50 years ago his claims the came from "Samurai" are both bogus and sad.
I have no idea what he really teaches but I do know he does a stun gun kata (no joke) that is quite electrifying.
(I swear he did this in front of a whole room full of people)
Not only does he claim to teach these art but also claims lofty and very fake ranks in all as well as the rank of "Kocho".
Kocho means School Principal BTW.
So whether his arts work or not is not the point, the point is he comes off as a buffoon.
Personally I would respect him more if he just said I made all this stuff up and I call it "Hoo Flung Poo" or "Sum Dum Ho" or even "Hamster style". At least in this way he is not purposely deceiving the general public.

As for legitimacy & lineage.............well I have met more than a few Tae Kwon Do folks in Korea that flatly deny TKD came from Karate and yet some of the Kata they do are almost identical to Pinan katas that were made by Itosu of Okinawa. Not to mention the kanji for the kata are exactly the same. So go figure.

 

[Monkey King]

I'll let this drop after this.

The school in the springs was recently started. It is not the main school. That is in Denver.

I agree poor technique discipline seems to reign within the schools. But that's the fault of the instructors. The classes are very relaxed and no time is spent on learning proper technique. One of my pet peeves.

Sin The's rise to grandmastery - well, I didn't sign up because he was a "grandmaster". I truly don't care. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who claims grandmastership is suspect.

I had heard two stories. The first where he purchased is rank, which is common in martial arts communities, the second where he attained it normally.

I tend to believe the former. That aside, the forms and training are good. There are the few that actually excell at them. I videotaped a class once and was surprised at what I saw. Probably the same thing you saw in the springs.

500 forms? it's possible...mastering them ? not possible. it would take your entire lifetime everyday for hours a day.

But having been in it, I have to say that the information taught was quality information. Just not the way it was taught.

 

[Cruentus]

I could care less if Bob Billy Bob makes an art in the year 2002 and he names it Bob Billy Bob's House O Pain...if it works than great.

Yea, me either. Who cares about what Billy Bob does, just as long as Billy Bob isn't lying to people just to take there $$, or boost his own ego in his fantasy world.

I think that's the real problem here. If you just created your art this year, then fine....just say so. That doesn't bother me nearly as much as when people outright lie about their credentials. If an instructor is going to lie about credentials, then he will probably lie about the techniques, and will falsely present what "works". His students will walk away not having a clue as to how to effectively defend themselves.

I see it happend way to much, and it sickens me. Too many people out there need a reality check.

well I have met more than a few Tae Kwon Do folks in Korea that flatly deny TKD came from Karate

Also, many of them will deny that some of the spinning and hook kicking techniques came from Filipino Sakiron (sp?). There are reasons for this, though, and it isn't necissarily that they are bad martial artists. It is just that martial artists ARE NOT anthropologists or historians. A lot of what is out there in terms of origins are mere conjectures without concrete or "written" evidence to prove it. This doesn't mean that these conjectures are false, though.

This is where legitamicy gets fustrating. As martial arts progress, they pirate each other, and techniques get mixed and matched across cultures. However, when I studied ITF TKD (a while ago) I especially remember the Korean Nationalism; I doubt some of the Korean masters I've met would admit that anything TKD was anything but Korean.

I guess the main point is that we as Martial Artists need to know ENOUGH to legitimize our arts, but we can't be expected to be historians either. There has to be a happy medium.

As for myself, I study Filipino martial arts; Due to the lack of pre-spanish written records, I learn new concepts about my arts origin(s) all the time.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by PAUL

Also, many of them will deny that some of the spinning and hook kicking techniques came from Filipino Sakiron (sp?).

Is there indeed a TKD-Sikaran connection? I hadn't heard this.

 

[lungshihpo]

Originally posted by PAUL


I think that's the real problem here. If you just created your art this year, then fine....just say so. That doesn't bother me nearly as much as when people outright lie about their credentials. If an instructor is going to lie about credentials, then he will probably lie about the techniques, and will falsely present what "works". His students will walk away not having a clue as to how to effectively defend themselves.


I dont know how you meant this,but i gave you the information,take it how you want it,I can tell everyone is out to get the other one here!If you think im a fake so be it!



Jason:asian:

 

[Damian Mavis]

I don't think he was referring to you Jason, this thread has taken a topic turn is all and now we are discussing how some instructors make false claims whether intentionally or unintentionally.

Ryu said "I think purposely misleading the general public is not a good thing."

Ya that's pretty bad, I see bad martial arts schools everywere and false claims are the least of their sins. Why is it martial arts attracts the worst kind of characters and somehow these are the guys that land up running schools, probably because martial arts is one of the few ways a nobody can be granted a small amount of power fairly easily. (by power I mean controlling the actions of others to some degree, I don't mean the power to kick ***)

What I meant earlier is, why do people care about the lineage of an art? Personally I think they are all full of poo so I don't care were they come from. To me it's the effectiveness of an art that counts. So if someone looking for a school is talking to an instructor and he's telling them it is an ancient art that goes back 1000 years....... why would the prospective student care? I know some do care, I'm just curious why.

And Tae Kwon Do IS AN ANCIENT ART THAT GOES BACK THOUSANDS OF YEARS!! HOW DARE YOU BLASPHEME!! heh ok I'm joking. Tae Kwon Do is basically Korean Karate just over 50 years old and is taken directly from Karate. Our founder of TKD got his training and black belt in Karate and then created TKD. People that make all those other claims about TKD are either uninformed or (not meant to be racist) Korean. Nobody really cares that TKD is from Karate except the Koreans in Korea. (national pride thing I guess)

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Cruentus]

I dont know how you meant this,but i gave you the information,take it how you want it,I can tell everyone is out to get the other one here!If you think im a fake so be it!

Jason, I am not out to get anyone, and that wasn't to say you are a "fake." I don't really know you, nor do I know much about the history behind your art. I was just stating how I feel about the importance of legitamicy, thats all.

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

Guys.... I kinda think your missing the point here, you should be getting hurt at least a bit in your martial arts training don't you think? We aren't practicing ballet right?
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

hehe...damian, you obviously aren't a dancer... I experience way more pain in dance class than in karate...

the first day of pointe (toe shoe) class, my teacher showed us all how to wrap our feet so that when (not if) all the blisters broke, all the blood wouldn't soak through and stain the satin shoes. For most of us, it soaked through anyway (soaking something in hydrogen peroxide will remove a fresh bloodstain, just fyi)

dancers go through a lot of pain, hurt, and injury. I can't count all the injuries I've seen on girls who's partners have dropped them, people who've twisted ankles, broken bones, overstretched and torn things, and even a guy who slipped during a jump and landed his crotch on the corner of the stage...dancers don't wear cups, ya know... he had to have surgery to remove the testicle that was pushed up into his abdomen.


still think dance doesn't hurt?



respectfully,

Nightingale

 

[Cruentus]

Arnisador: I am citing (by memory) the section in Mark V. Wiley's Book "Filipino Martial Arts Theory and Practice" [I think that is the correct title, please correct me if I am wrong]. It basically said that when the Koreans opened martial arts tournaments to the public early on (before TKD became world-wide) many Sakaran students entered and did fairly well. They sort of brought some of the spin kicking techniques and hooking kicks to the tournament table (especially the hook kick where you kick past the opponent and kick them in the back or back of head, a signature Sakaran kicking movement that was also a signature TKD move for many successful tournament fighters). These eventually became integrated into the art.

I am at work, so I don't have Mr. Wileys' book to look at to confirm what I'm saying, but that's what I remember.

 

[Cruentus]

he had to have surgery to remove the testicle that was pushed up into his abdomen.

That hurt just reading it!

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis


What I meant earlier is, why do people care about the lineage of an art? Personally I think they are all full of poo so I don't care were they come from. To me it's the effectiveness of an art that counts. So if someone looking for a school is talking to an instructor and he's telling them it is an ancient art that goes back 1000 years....... why would the prospective student care? I know some do care, I'm just curious why.

Basically it is similar to false advertising.

For example, before my teacher came to the US there were no Ryukyu Kempo schools in America.
(The Ryukyu Kempo Rengo Kai was an organization that was founded back in the 1960's after the death of one of his teachers.)
After living in the US a few years and gaining some popularity and notoriety certain people started using the Ryukyu Kempo name after only studying it VERY briefly or without actually having studied it at all. These people had no connection to him and were basically using the Ryukyu Kempo name for name recognition. (Bottom line......they used it for gettin' students in the dojo)
It got so bad that by the early 1990's so many people claimed to be teaching Ryukyu Kempo, some of them rather undesirable folks too, that had no connection to my teacher.
He actually went out and re-named his organization and had the name copyrighted. So now no one can use it unless they have written permission from him.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis


And Tae Kwon Do IS AN ANCIENT ART THAT GOES BACK THOUSANDS OF YEARS!! HOW DARE YOU BLASPHEME!! heh ok I'm joking. Tae Kwon Do is basically Korean Karate just over 50 years old and is taken directly from Karate. Our founder of TKD got his training and black belt in Karate and then created TKD. People that make all those other claims about TKD are either uninformed or (not meant to be racist) Korean. Nobody really cares that TKD is from Karate except the Koreans in Korea. (national pride thing I guess)

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I have also read the "Moonies" (Rev. Sung Yung Moon/Unification Church) have a big stake in TKD in Korea and across North America as well.
If I remember correctly Moon said his goal was to control all martial arts across North America .............now there is a scary thought.

 

[Damian Mavis]

My god who who are the Moonies. And ya I understand the making money off someone elses name, thats real bad but hopefully people will always copyright before they get to big.

Nightingale, I've dated 5 dancers and know how hard it is on the body but I was talking about getting hit during training. To me learning all about getting hit is as important as learning how to hit when it comes to martial arts training, I wasn't even referring to the thousands of stupid training injuries I've accumulated over the years. Training injuries are a part of all physical activites I think, but I understand were you are coming from.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[RyuShiKan]

I have several other articles on Rev. Moon and Karate.

Here is one them.




http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/moonies/moonflies.asp

 

[chufeng]

POSTED BY RYU SHI KAN I met a guy last weekend that claims his art is Okinawan Jujutsu. There is no such thing. He also made some claim that the other art he is highly ranked in was descended from Samurai warriors and is a mixture of Okinawan Jujutsu/Kyokushin/something else/ something else.
I forgot the last 2 but they were just as goofy as the first 2.
Since there is no such thing as Okinawan JJ and Kyokushin was only made 50 years ago his claims the came from "Samurai" are both bogus and sad. I have no idea what he really teaches but I do know he does a stun gun kata (no joke) that is quite electrifying. ....................................................................


:asian:
Don't get me started......:shrug:

:asian:
chufeng

What I mean is...
A lot of people LOVE to be lied to...
The bigger the lie...the more it is believed...
Sort of like ..."I did not have sex with that woman..."

but then, only the ultra left bought that lie


:asian:
chufeng

 

[lungshihpo]

Jason, I am not out to get anyone, and that wasn't to say you are a "fake." I don't really know you, nor do I know much about the history behind your art. I was just stating how I feel about the importance of legitamicy, thats all.

ok,Im sorry, I wasn't sure, after all that has been said in this thread,you never know!honestly when I made this website,I never would of thought it would have spread the way it has,from now on i will put more actual techniques,than just someone getting nailed,because i see the things you all do, in the ones who are not trained,but it was only fair to put them on the site as well,because they were showing up every sunday,and that gave us plenty of sparring practice against uncontrolled fighters!plus they were having a ball just being able to fight with out consequence. were all here to have fun and learn,just some are little rowdy,but that is ok "sometime".but thanks


Jason:asian: