what do you believe Kata's are for?, its purpose?

eyebeams

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In my first art, kata were introduced at the rate of one every two years after 3-5 years of training basics, conditioning and hard contact sparring. I know three and a half kata from my old system (after 8 years of training in it), but wouldn't trade them for "knowing" a dozen or more kata taught for typical belt tests.

At this stage, I honestly have no idea how someone could truly benefit from kata without having a solid combative base, or how someone could claim to really know a kata after less than a year. Older katas are really collections of advanced tricks and repeated movements that can make you look at fundamentals in new ways. The movements are often deliberately simplified to ease teaching and to keep from limiting your ability to interpret them. Most movements are not really "finished," except for one or two base applications. If you don't have a basic fighting system in place, you won't be able to make use of them. If you don't know how to modify a reverse punch in the dojo to an effective cross or use the chamber to grab and anchor, then similar principles in the kata won't appear.

That said, I'd put sets like the Pinans in a whole different category. They string together kihon and are not really katas in the same fashion as Naihanchi.
 

Gene Williams

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I'm not sure which Pinan you have been watching (the styles you list for yourself don't do them, which raises the question of what you actually know about them), but the Pinan are not just kihon strung together. They are major kata of many Okinawan systems and are taught and practiced as essential kata. Many students want to hurry through them to get to more advanced kata, but that is a mistake. I would give up a number of "higher" kata to keep the Pinan. You are correct in that you cannot "know" a kata in a year. It takes more like 5 or 10 years. Oh, and it is "Pinan" and "kata." No plurals in Japanese.
 

eyebeams

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Gene Williams said:
I'm not sure which Pinan you have been watching (the styles you list for yourself don't do them, which raises the question of what you actually know about them), but the Pinan are not just kihon strung together. They are major kata of many Okinawan systems and are taught and practiced as essential kata.
Sure they're important. That's why they were invented for the Okinawan phys ed system. <b>That's</b> why they get taught first. They are, at minimum, second or third generation katas compared to the traditional sets that originate in Fujian Southern Crane/Monk Fist/etc. Their techniques are largely derivative of earlier sets, with an extra emphasis on repetition. You can't really say that the successive gedan barais in Pinan Nidan (to yank one out of the air) were intended to be interpreted with the same depth as the potential lock flows in the 2nd-5th moves of Passai Dai. They do work wonders for ingraining the technique, though.

And to answer your implicit question: not all kenpo is EPAK.

Many students want to hurry through them to get to more advanced kata, but that is a mistake. I would give up a number of "higher" kata to keep the Pinan.
I'm not slagging the Pinans by any means. I just don't think they're meant for the same things. I freely admit I haven't done as as serious a study of them as I have, say, Naihanchi Shodan -- but then again, I happen to think that Naihanchi Shodan is a more "serious" kata. You make the call.

You are correct in that you cannot "know" a kata in a year. It takes more like 5 or 10 years.
I'm not talking about the numinous aspects of "mastering" or "exploring" a kata. It's easy to talk about taking ages to truly learn a kata, but the fact is that even learning it in the first place shouldn't be rushed. Nor should training katas come at the expense of skills development. Have you ever taken time for a friendly tegumi/okinawan sumo bout? That's the kind of thing Okinawans did in addition to repeating kata movements. These direct experiences inform how one creates bunkai. If you don't have 'em, you won't find 'em.

Plus, it takes time to develop intent with each movement. For instance, I was working the topfist the other day to see how it works with several sequences where it's implicit (my Xingyi training introduced me to this possibility). I want it to be just as reflexive as a jab/cross or grab/uraken. That takes time.

Oh, and it is "Pinan" and "kata." No plurals in Japanese.
Fortunately, I am speaking English.
 

Gene Williams

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Well, I have trouble saying that one kata is any more "serious" than any other unless we are talking about Fukyugata or Gakki Sai in relation to more "advanced" kata. I would class the Pinan as second generation kata because Itosu developed them from pre-existing kata. I happen to think Itosu was a genius and that the five Pinan are a master work. People get hung up on the fact that he developed them for phys ed students. That may be true, but many things designed for one reason become important far beyond their original purpose. The Pinan Nidan of Motobu ha has no "successive gedan barai." Everything is a combination of block punch or block trap/grab. You're thinking JKA. Anyway, you are correct that much of Okinawan kata came from China originally. When I first witnessed some guys from Cho Lay Fut and Shaolin train I thought, "damn, they look like us." Kung Fu has gotten a bad rap in this country what with all the scarves tied to swords, carnival clothing, and Wu Shu acrobatics. In some kata, the Chinese influence just leaps out at you. It would be impossible to sort it all out as there was so much cultural exchange between Okinawan and China. Please, no one, and I mean no one, is talking about "numinous aspects of kata." You train hard all your life, that's it. Learning never stops, but you are right in that it should not ever be rushed. Yes, we do some pretty rough old Okinawan drills and a lot that come from Goju and Higaonna. Anyway, go run the Pinan. Gene
 

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