Weapon/Tool Development/Anthropology... Formerly Blocking useless?

[jobo]

bison dont pull carts anywhere. those are ox. different animal.

pdg has already posted a picture of them doing so,

 

[hoshin1600]

how hard can it be to get a bison to PULL a cart, every other part of the world managed it

pdg has already posted a picture of them doing so,

having one publicity photo of bison and "having every other part of the world" use bison is different. i was addressing your assumed view that there are domesticated bison all over the world. those are not bison they are oxen.

 

[jobo]

having one publicity photo of bison and "having every other part of the world" use bison is different. i was addressing your assumed view that there are domesticated bison all over the world. those are not bison they are oxen.

hang on, you said they don't pull carts ANYWHERE, and low and behold here is a picture of them pulling a cart, so clearly they do,

clearly there are not bison all over the world, there are none at all round here, however other parts of the world that have bison have domesticated them, they have even been domesticated in the good old USA,

 

[pdg]

yeah i dont know i think there is something about there need to run and the aggressive head butting thing that keeps them from being a good candidate.

having one publicity photo of bison and "having every other part of the world" use bison is different. i was addressing your assumed view that there are domesticated bison all over the world. those are not bison they are oxen.

Do a google image search for "bison pulling cart" - the image I chose was far from the first result, of hundreds.

Also, there's a place not a huge distance from me with bison on what is essentially a farm with a campsite - the bison they keep are for tourist attraction and meat.

Plus, there are bison in zoos all over the world (admittedly, less of a fully domesticated situation, but restricted and kept without issue).

I don't really think there's much in the way of challenge to domesticating them - especially if you have a look at where 'normal' cattle came from originally, and pigs...


The apparent difference with my opinion is that I don't think it's a matter of lack of intelligence as to why native Americans didn't domesticate bison but a lack of need (and, this might highlight my lack of real knowledge of the people - wasn't that level of interference with the habitat and it's fauna against their beliefs?)

 

[jobo]

well they hunted at least 35 species to extinction, including the ground sloth, the American lion and the,short faced bear, so clearly not that bothered about fauna interference

 

[hoshin1600]

well they hunted at least 35 species to extinction, including the ground sloth, the American lion and the,short faced bear, so clearly not that bothered about fauna interference

Um, just exactly who hunted them to extinction?
The bear and lion were around until the pleistoce extinction. That has nothing to do with native indians. Your time line is off by about 6 to 100 thousand years.

 

[hoshin1600]

Also, there's a place not a huge distance from me with bison on what is essentially a farm with a campsite - the bison they keep are for tourist attraction and meat.

are you aware that today 90 something % of all bison are genetically altered and mixed with domesticated livestock? there are almost no bison of authentic genetics. this is how we brought the species back and made it easier to control them.

Plus, there are bison in zoos all over the world (admittedly, less of a fully domesticated situation, but restricted and kept without issue).

and we also have crocodiles, lions and tigers but you wont get them to pull a cart either.

 

[jobo]

Um, just exactly who hunted them to extinction?
The bear and lion were around until the pleistoce extinction. That has nothing to do with native indians. Your time line is off by about 6 to 100 thousand years.

???? 100,000 years
the extinction of the lion matches EXACTLY with the,arrival of the first native Americans, well almost exactly, the people arrived and with in a few hundred years it was extinct, is Wikipedia broken in America?

 

[hoshin1600]

https://www.quora.com/Can-the-American-Bison-be-domesticated
the problem becomes inheritability of temper - if bison are anything like acorn trees and their bitterness isn't governed by just one gene, then you're always crapshooting. You might end up having generation after generation of docile bison only to have the next generation completely feral. Or more likely, you'll have members within the same generation with varying degrees of temper - and so you get an unmanageable herd. Shepherds would be sunk if 25% of their sheep just decided to wander off. Until we understand more about the genetic and epigenetics of bison temper, widescale domestication is a dream.

Why was the American Bison never domesticated? • r/AskAnthropology

nearly all animal species that have been domesticated produce very low levels of cortisol in comparison to related species that have never been successfully domesticated.....
Cortisol is a stress hormone, and most animals with normal cortisol levels will be skittish, unpredictable, and potentially aggressive in human presence. Domestication involves selecting a species that contains a genetic mutation for low cortisol production.


can we put this domesticated bison idea to rest now???

 

[jobo]

are you aware that today 90 something % of all bison are genetically altered and mixed with domesticated livestock? there are almost no bison of authentic genetics. this is how we brought the species back and made it easier to control them.


and we also have crocodiles, lions and tigers but you wont get them to pull a cart either.

dies it never occur to you to google things,Before you post

are you aware that today 90 something % of all bison are genetically altered and mixed with domesticated livestock? there are almost no bison of authentic genetics. this is how we brought the species back and made it easier to control them.


and we also have crocodiles, lions and tigers but you wont get them to pull a cart either.

does it never occur to you to google BEFORE you make,rash statements

here is,a,vid of lions pulling a,cart , its one of hundreds of pictures of lions pulling carts





lion pulling cart - Bing video

 

[jobo]

https://www.quora.com/Can-the-American-Bison-be-domesticated
the problem becomes inheritability of temper - if bison are anything like acorn trees and their bitterness isn't governed by just one gene, then you're always crapshooting. You might end up having generation after generation of docile bison only to have the next generation completely feral. Or more likely, you'll have members within the same generation with varying degrees of temper - and so you get an unmanageable herd. Shepherds would be sunk if 25% of their sheep just decided to wander off. Until we understand more about the genetic and epigenetics of bison temper, widescale domestication is a dream.

Why was the American Bison never domesticated? • r/AskAnthropology

nearly all animal species that have been domesticated produce very low levels of cortisol in comparison to related species that have never been successfully domesticated.....
Cortisol is a stress hormone, and most animals with normal cortisol levels will be skittish, unpredictable, and potentially aggressive in human presence. Domestication involves selecting a species that contains a genetic mutation for low cortisol production.


can we put this domesticated bison idea to rest now???

no, that just says you need to selectively breed them, which is what i said upteen posts ago. No one,said it was easy, just Not impossible

 

[jobo]

are you aware that today 90 something % of all bison are genetically altered and mixed with domesticated livestock? there are almost no bison of authentic genetics. this is how we brought the species back and made it easier to control them.


and we also have crocodiles, lions and tigers but you wont get them to pull a cart either.

couldn't find a crocodile, but here is an alligator pulling a cart, not sure id have let my kid on that

 

[pdg]

can we put this domesticated bison idea to rest now???

Yes, because it's shown to be possible.

Cross breeding can be considered part of selective breeding.


Thing is, the fact it's possible doesn't mean it was required by the natives.

Buffalo are also able to be domesticated, and have been for many years - but not by the tribal people who shared their habitat.

Was that because the native Africans lacked the intelligence to do so or because they had no requirement to? I'm going for the latter myself.



Edit... This 90 something % of mixed breed bison - domesticated cattle weren't just plonked on earth in a domesticated form, they were derived from a single, very wild, animal and selectively bred over many generations to reach the state they're in now...

 

[hoshin1600]

???? 100,000 years
the extinction of the lion matches EXACTLY with the,arrival of the first native Americans, well almost exactly, the people arrived and with in a few hundred years it was extinct, is Wikipedia broken in America?

From wiki;
The short-faced bear ....It has been hypothesized that their extinction coincides with the Younger Dryas period.
The Younger Dryas (c. 12,900 to c. 11,700 years BP)
The American lion .... is an extinct subspecies of lion that lived in North America during thePleistocene epoch (340,000 to 11,000 years ago)

Na-Dené-speaking peoples entered North America starting around 8000 BCE, reaching the Pacific Northwest by 5000 BCE,[26]

maybe you meant the Clovis people not american indians?

 

[jobo]

Yes, because it's shown to be possible.

Cross breeding can be considered part of selective breeding.


Thing is, the fact it's possible doesn't mean it was required by the natives.

Buffalo are also able to be domesticated, and have been for many years - but not by the tribal people who shared their habitat.

Was that because the native Africans lacked the intelligence to do so or because they had no requirement to? I'm going for the latter myself.

they could have just been to lazy to try?

 

[jobo]

From wiki;
The short-faced bear ....It has been hypothesized that their extinction coincides with the Younger Dryas period.
The Younger Dryas (c. 12,900 to c. 11,700 years BP)
The American lion .... is an extinct subspecies of lion that lived in North America during thePleistocene epoch (340,000 to 11,000 years ago)

Na-Dené-speaking peoples entered North America starting around 8000 BCE, reaching the Pacific Northwest by 5000 BCE,[26]

maybe you meant the Clovis people not american indians?

arnt clocks people American natives people

From wiki;
The short-faced bear ....It has been hypothesized that their extinction coincides with the Younger Dryas period.
The Younger Dryas (c. 12,900 to c. 11,700 years BP)
The American lion .... is an extinct subspecies of lion that lived in North America during thePleistocene epoch (340,000 to 11,000 years ago)

Na-Dené-speaking peoples entered North America starting around 8000 BCE, reaching the Pacific Northwest by 5000 BCE,[26]

maybe you meant the Clovis people not american indians?

google first, its recently been revealed that the clovis people are the,ancestors off all the native Americans, id be ashamed if i knew so little of my own country history

hers a link. Where Native Americans come from

 

[hoshin1600]

Yes, because it's shown to be possible.

Cross breeding can be considered part of selective breeding.


Thing is, the fact it's possible doesn't mean it was required by the natives.

Buffalo are also able to be domesticated, and have been for many years - but not by the tribal people who shared their habitat.

Was that because the native Africans lacked the intelligence to do so or because they had no requirement to? I'm going for the latter myself.



Edit... This 90 something % of mixed breed bison - domesticated cattle weren't just plonked on earth in a domesticated form, they were derived from a single, very wild, animal and selectively bred over many generations to reach the state they're in now...

here is my point though.....
there was only one species on this continent. where the heck were the indians going to get a more domesticated DNA from? sure we can mix species with a lot of differnt Bovine now, but not then...and i wouldnt want that job of manually "stimulating" a male bison to get some DNA

 

[hoshin1600]

no, that just says you need to selectively breed them, which is what i said upteen posts ago. No one,said it was easy, just Not impossible

you didnt read the link.. the domesticated gene does not reliably get passed down. you could get a few docile bison then lose that trait again. you keep trying but you keep losing the trait.
.

 

[hoshin1600]

arnt clocks people American natives people

i think you mean clovis, not clocks....or am i missing something?
and no i wouldnt consider the clovis the same as native american any more then i would consider you neanderthal. but i do sometimes wonder about you?

Europeans are closer to Neanderthals than first thought | Daily Mail Online

 

[jobo]

i think you mean clovis, not clocks....or am i missing something?
and no i wouldnt consider the clovis the same as native american any more then i would consider you neanderthal. but i do sometimes wonder about you?

Europeans are closer to Neanderthals than first thought | Daily Mail Online

did you read the link, it clearly say they have dna evidence that they are indeed the same people