Weapon/Tool Development/Anthropology... Formerly Blocking useless?

[Gerry Seymour]

that's the fault of the natives for not taking advantage of it

See, you're once again approaching this as a matter of fault and excuse. Cultures adopt what they find useful. If it doesn't fit a need (or interest) for them at the time, they likely won't adopt. That's a reason - an explanation - not an excuse. History and science don't need excuses.

 

[jobo]

You say "if they had bothered". Early cultures rarely "bother" to make advances that don't meet a need. As someone pointed out earlier, at least one tribe did have "the wheel", but it amounted to a play toy for children. Why didn't it become a tool? Apparently they didn't find it all that useful in their way of living. Perhaps it was too rocky and steep in their area, or too sandy. Or perhaps they had another working method for hauling. But here's the kicker: they didn't have to, because someone brought wheeled carts to them (when the Europeans arrived). Would they eventually have developed wheels as tools? Probably, since (accepting your prior claim as true) everyone else did.

You're trying to compare them to other cultures of the same calendar dates and look at the difference in development. That's just not how cultures develop. You're ignoring all but the most obvious influences. There's a reason there are multiple sciences that study this stuff: it's complicated.

of courses. I'm comparing off,dates, the nub of my point is they lagged most of the,rest of the world by THOUSANDS of years

the whole they didn't have a need, argument is silly, every other culture had a need for better tools , they clearly had a need if they made copper tools and as the owner of a,copper chisel, i can reliably inform you that owners of copper tools need better tools.

living in thousands of sq miles of flat plain is just crying out for a wheel, particularly when you have beasts of burden just wondering by. To suggest that they didn't have a need is nonsense, as soon as the wheel arrived they suddenly found a need for it, ergo they always had a need for it. New invention that don't meet a need don't get very far, i have a betermax vid in my cellar

 

[jobo]

See, you're once again approaching this as a matter of fault and excuse. Cultures adopt what they find useful. If it doesn't fit a need (or interest) for them at the time, they likely won't adopt. That's a reason - an explanation - not an excuse. History and science don't need excuses.

however you want to wrap it up, they were responsible for not advancing in technology, if that's through lack of imagination or making themselves isolated is by the,way, it their own fault

 

[pdg]

New invention that don't meet a need don't get very far, i have a betermax vid in my cellar

Sorry, that's a bad comparison.

Betamax outperformed VHS in every way except length of recording time, and it came first - so it was the first thing to meet the perceived "need".

The only reason VHS won was superior marketing.

Oh, and both formats (plus the even shorter lived video2000) weren't "new" inventions, they were extensions of existing technology.

Using that argument transferred to the wheel is akin to comparing tyre materials - not "wheel vs no wheel".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

of courses. I'm comparing off,dates, the nub of my point is they lagged most of the,rest of the world by THOUSANDS of years

And they were as advanced as some other areas of the world. At one time, China had technology more advanced than most other cultures. Cultures differ in their needs and circumstances. They do not generally develop at the same rate as other cultures with dissimilar circumstances, unless there's heavy interaction with them.

the whole they didn't have a need, argument is silly, every other culture had a need for better tools , they clearly had a need if they made copper tools and as the owner of a,copper chisel, i can reliably inform you that owners of copper tools need better tools.

I've discussed the reasons I can think of that probably explain their lack of advancement in metallurgy. And no, there is not always a need for better tools. Until economics (profit motive) are introduced, subsistence is the primary driver of development. So long as it is easy to subsist, cultures don't tend to progress as quickly. Economics (and other social analogs) breaks that cycle.

living in thousands of sq miles of flat plain is just crying out for a wheel, particularly when you have beasts of burden just wondering by. To suggest that they didn't have a need is nonsense, as soon as the wheel arrived they suddenly found a need for it, ergo they always had a need for it. New invention that don't meet a need don't get very far, i have a betermax vid in my cellar

I'd have to look at how carts were adopted. I suspect the tribes that adopted quickly weren't those that had wheel-toys. But that adoption was precisely one of my points. You said they never developed the wheel. Most never needed to - it was introduced to them before they developed it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

however you want to wrap it up, they were responsible for not advancing in technology, if that's through lack of imagination or making themselves isolated is by the,way, it their own fault

Again, you're working to blame, when that doesn't even make sense when discussing societal development. You must be a joy to work with. Who do you blame at work when it's cloudy?

 

[hoshin1600]

of courses. I'm comparing off,dates, the nub of my point is they lagged most of the,rest of the world by THOUSANDS of years

the whole they didn't have a need, argument is silly, every other culture had a need for better tools , they clearly had a need if they made copper tools and as the owner of a,copper chisel, i can reliably inform you that owners of copper tools need better tools.

living in thousands of sq miles of flat plain is just crying out for a wheel, particularly when you have beasts of burden just wondering by. To suggest that they didn't have a need is nonsense, as soon as the wheel arrived they suddenly found a need for it, ergo they always had a need for it. New invention that don't meet a need don't get very far, i have a betermax vid in my cellar

i really wish you had a better grasp on the history of the American Indian. your understanding is the equivalent of a 1950's western movie. its getting annoying.
The plains indian like the Lakota where just one of many different cultures. these cultures are so distinct and different from one another its like comparing vikings to mongols to greeks.
as far as "beasts of burden" ...you think you can tame a bison? yeah good luck with that, it cant be done. while your at it maybe you could think about why you cant ride a Zebra.
so that being said while a wheel would be good for a wheelbarrow it wasnt much good for anything else without a pulling system.

the indigenous people where on this continent before the Egyptian pyramids were built, if not for disease and plagues they would still be here. in less than a thousand years, your so called "progress" has ruined the earth and wiped out 80 percent of all animal species during that time.
who's culture is backwards again????

 

[hoshin1600]

i should also add that at one point the most advanced civilization was the middle east. they invented our "arabic" writting and math. the library was full of knowledge from all over the globe..
where are they today?? and why??

 

[pdg]

I've discussed the reasons I can think of that probably explain their lack of advancement in metallurgy. And no, there is not always a need for better tools. Until economics (profit motive) are introduced, subsistence is the primary driver of development. So long as it is easy to subsist, cultures don't tend to progress as quickly. Economics (and other social analogs) breaks that cycle.

Better tooling is only better if you need it.

Let's take the stereotypical dugout canoe - if you're making one for you you can do it with stone tools. It takes a while, but it works. Maybe it'll take 100 hours to get something workable, but it'll work for years so you don't need to make more.

It's only when you're the village/tribe canoe builder that you absolutely need to start getting the efficiency that comes with better tooling.

A few years back I made a part for a breech loading rifle - I used a hacksaw and a couple of files, took ages but it didn't matter because it was just for me and it wasn't really a pressing need.

If I needed to make the same part right now I'd nip out to the shed and fire up the lathe and the mill and have it done in minutes - but I didn't get those machines through need - the society I live in is such that they're toys...

i really wish you had a better grasp on the history of the American Indian. your understanding is the equivalent of a 1950's western movie

That's probably equal to my knowledge of them tbh - everything I've said is based on my understanding of requirement driving development wherever and by whoever. I think my theory covers worldwide

as far as "beasts of burden" ...you think you can tame a bison? yeah good luck with that, it cant be done

I'm going to have to question that...

Why is it harder to domesticate a bison than an oxen, or a horse, or an elephant?

You only need a beast of burden if the burden you choose is too great for you.

Also, a challenge to that statement comes from the New England Historical Society:

 

[oftheherd1]

i should also add that at one point the most advanced civilization was the middle east. they invented our "arabic" writting and math. the library was full of knowledge from all over the globe..
where are they today?? and why??

We don't use an Arabic system for writing English (thankfully), or even most other European languages. It is mostly Roman, which they got from the Greeks, which the Greeks got from the Phoenicians. Each pass-a-long involved some changes to suit the next language.

The victor gets to write the history and claim the glory. Arabic math mostly came from India. Geometry from the Greeks.

 

[oftheherd1]

i really wish you had a better grasp on the history of the American Indian. your understanding is the equivalent of a 1950's western movie. its getting annoying.
The plains indian like the Lakota where just one of many different cultures. these cultures are so distinct and different from one another its like comparing vikings to mongols to greeks.
as far as "beasts of burden" ...you think you can tame a bison? yeah good luck with that, it cant be done. while your at it maybe you could think about why you cant ride a Zebra.
so that being said while a wheel would be good for a wheelbarrow it wasnt much good for anything else without a pulling system.

the indigenous people where on this continent before the Egyptian pyramids were built, if not for disease and plagues they would still be here. in less than a thousand years, your so called "progress" has ruined the earth and wiped out 80 percent of all animal species during that time.
who's culture is backwards again????

Probably best he doesn't. He might make more believable assertions which might make it harder to detect that he was simply throwing out stuff he surely doesn't even believe himself; all to elicit responses.

Just my belief of course, but it is why I won't be answering his posts.

 

[jobo]

i really wish you had a better grasp on the history of the American Indian. your understanding is the equivalent of a 1950's western movie. its getting annoying.
The plains indian like the Lakota where just one of many different cultures. these cultures are so distinct and different from one another its like comparing vikings to mongols to greeks.
as far as "beasts of burden" ...you think you can tame a bison? yeah good luck with that, it cant be done. while your at it maybe you could think about why you cant ride a Zebra.
so that being said while a wheel would be good for a wheelbarrow it wasnt much good for anything else without a pulling system.

the indigenous people where on this continent before the Egyptian pyramids were built, if not for disease and plagues they would still be here. in less than a thousand years, your so called "progress" has ruined the earth and wiped out 80 percent of all animal species during that time.
who's culture is backwards again????

the excuses being offered are getting bizare, here is,a jockey and zebra and AGAIN the rest of the world managed to tame bison, i suppose. That has special difficult to train bison.

they also hunted a whole collection of large mammals to extinction, so that another point gone

 

[jobo]

i should also add that at one point the most advanced civilization was the middle east. they invented our "arabic" writting and math. the library was full of knowledge from all over the globe..
where are they today?? and why??

the romans, invaded,set fire to the library and that was more or less the end of them, and i don't know,about you, but the language i write isn't aerobic, perhaps you need more European history before you speculate ?

 

[jobo]

Better tooling is only better if you need it.

Let's take the stereotypical dugout canoe - if you're making one for you you can do it with stone tools. It takes a while, but it works. Maybe it'll take 100 hours to get something workable, but it'll work for years so you don't need to make more.

It's only when you're the village/tribe canoe builder that you absolutely need to start getting the efficiency that comes with better tooling.

A few years back I made a part for a breech loading rifle - I used a hacksaw and a couple of files, took ages but it didn't matter because it was just for me and it wasn't really a pressing need.

If I needed to make the same part right now I'd nip out to the shed and fire up the lathe and the mill and have it done in minutes - but I didn't get those machines through need - the society I live in is such that they're toys...



That's probably equal to my knowledge of them tbh - everything I've said is based on my understanding of requirement driving development wherever and by whoever. I think my theory covers worldwide



I'm going to have to question that...

Why is it harder to domesticate a bison than an oxen, or a horse, or an elephant?

You only need a beast of burden if the burden you choose is too great for you.

Also, a challenge to that statement comes from the New England Historical Society:

View attachment 21270

Sorry, that's a bad comparison.

Betamax outperformed VHS in every way except length of recording time, and it came first - so it was the first thing to meet the perceived "need".

The only reason VHS won was superior marketing.

Oh, and both formats (plus the even shorter lived video2000) weren't "new" inventions, they were extensions of existing technology.

Using that argument transferred to the wheel is akin to comparing tyre materials - not "wheel vs no wheel".

and and most especially price, people did not have a need for better quality at at MUCH higher price. So it Didnt meet the Needs of most purchasers. a, vhs players cost me 6 weeks wages in the,early 80s, betermax was three times that, PLUS all the porn was on vhs, so they were never going to win

however every one who has a need for a copper chisel has a need for a bronze one( at least)

 

[hoshin1600]

We don't use an Arabic system for writing English (thankfully), or even most other European languages. It is mostly Roman, which they got from the Greeks, which the Greeks got from the Phoenicians. Each pass-a-long involved some changes to suit the next language.

The victor gets to write the history and claim the glory. Arabic math mostly came from India. Geometry from the Greeks.

the romans, invaded,set fire to the library and that was more or less the end of them, and i don't know,about you, but the language i write isn't aerobic, perhaps you need more European history before you speculate ?

yup i got finger tied there for a second.. i was thinking Arabic numerals which replaced the Roman numbers. my bad.

 

[hoshin1600]

here is an article on why some species can not be tamed. and the Zebra thing is mentioned as a very rare case.
Why Can't All Animals Be Domesticated?


domestic animals cannot have a strong tendency to panic and flee when startled.
ever see what happens when bison get agitated??

.

this kid almost died ......

 

[pdg]

here is an article on why some species can not be tamed. and the Zebra thing is mentioned as a very rare case.
Why Can't All Animals Be Domesticated?


domestic animals cannot have a strong tendency to panic and flee when startled.
ever see what happens when bison get agitated??

.

this kid almost died ......

From the link you provided:

"Some evolutionary biologists do not consider docility to be a criterion of domestication, as many domestic animals are derived from very aggressive species, such as the dog from the wolf"

And... Ever seen what a cow can do if it gets agitated?

A friend of mine is a dairy farmer, last year he got trapped between a tractor and gatepost when a cow got spooked and tried to get through the same gap - one of his farm hands had to use a telehandler to lift the panicking cow off him so that the paramedics could get him on a stretcher. If the farm hand hadn't been there I'd likely be one friend down today.

The reason (imo) that buffalo and bison haven't been domesticated is/was lack of need.

You don't need to fence them in and provide for their well-being (which is a huge amount of work, which is dangerous if you might get attacked by a competing tribe) if your lifestyle is to follow the herd or take a few when it's passing.

 

[jobo]

here is an article on why some species can not be tamed. and the Zebra thing is mentioned as a very rare case.
Why Can't All Animals Be Domesticated?


domestic animals cannot have a strong tendency to panic and flee when startled.
ever see what happens when bison get agitated??

.

this kid almost died ......

a bit of,selective breading will sort that out, they got wolves to chase balls and do tricks, how hard can it be to get a bison to PULL a cart, every other part of the world managed it

 

[hoshin1600]

a bit of,selective breading will sort that out, they got wolves to chase balls and do tricks, how hard can it be to get a bison to PULL a cart, every other part of the world managed it

bison dont pull carts anywhere. those are ox. different animal.

 

[hoshin1600]

The reason (imo) that buffalo and bison haven't been domesticated is/was lack of need.

yeah i dont know i think there is something about there need to run and the aggressive head butting thing that keeps them from being a good candidate.