WC Punch

[LFJ]

Here is another example that you block your opponent's punch with right arm, you then punch back with the same arm.

So now you've gone from simultaneous block and punch with two arms, to block then punch with one arm in two beats. Still not simultaneous attack and defense with a single arm in a single beat.

IMO, to use arm A to block and punch back with arm A is more risky then to use

- arm A to block, arm B to punch, or
- arm A to block, arm B to re-block, and punch with the arm A.

VT punching tactics are to use arm A to punch with automatic covering in one beat. Then follow with the same dual-function in arm B.

This is both faster and safer since you are punching with each beat while cutting off and controlling space to close recovery options for the opponent.

Requires squared facing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Again, I see blocking with the left hand, then punching with the right. That's using two arms and it's not simultaneous.

That's what the video was supposed to show. The DC Jow Ga video shows the one arm blocking and striking, the arm is blocking and the hand is striking more specifically the fingers are striking the eyes.

But, this is a one-off technique. It doesn't allow for sustained attack with automatic protection like this.

Not everything has to be a sustained attack with the same technique. The longer you sustain an attack with the same technique, the better I'll be at countering it. If punch 1-2-3-4-5 is the same technique then 6 will most likely be the same. If punch 1-2-3-4, are the same then there is still good chance that 5 will be the same. The common sustained attack is usually no more than 4 punches. The brain starts to pick up patterns around 3 punches, so the 4th attack is usually something different. It is also common to see the 3rd attack vary as well. The more continuous number of punches at the top, the longer the lower part of the bottom is open to attacks.

If your hands are continuously in a combination punch aimed at my face then your mind isn't not aware of anything else but to punch my head. This mean I can attack low with little resistance. The longer you sustain such an attack the more you'll be at risk for tunnel vision.

Plus, the main issue is whether or not we're talking about a one-off technique, or a strategy and tactic that allows sustained attack with automatic protection in each arm.

I don't do sustained attacks. Everything I do is a "one off" because it prevents my opponent from understanding any pattern of attack that I may choose to do. For example, each number is a technique and each set is a combination of techniques. 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3- ? what is the next number. If your brain filled in 4 then you are right. Now try this. 1-4-2-2 , 2-1-2-3-3, 2-2-2-3, 4-2-3-1, 3-2-1-?. Based on the combinations I threw, what does your brain think will come next after technique 1? How many of the people in the room will think different numbers? How many will think that I don't even have to throw a punch at all.
Did you even notice that one combination set was longer than the others? How long did it take you to figure it out.

 

[LFJ]

Not everything has to be a sustained attack with the same technique.

I didn't say same technique. I'm talking about the same concept.

The longer you sustain an attack with the same technique, the better I'll be at countering it...
...The common sustained attack is usually no more than 4 punches.

Again, not the same technique. Same concept of simultaneous attack and defense functions built into each arm. By VT principles, we train to sustain the flow of attack until the target is finished. We don't just do "combinations" then pause to admire, or rest while the opponent is given an opportunity to recover.

If your hands are continuously in a combination punch aimed at my face then your mind isn't not aware of anything else but to punch my head.

No. For beginners maybe. It's called bodily/spatial awareness and thoughtless attacking principles.

Based on the combinations I threw, what does your brain think will come next after technique 1?

I don't care. I'm not trying to anticipate and chase your techniques anyway.

I recently exchanged with a JKD guy who theoretically should be quite good at combos. But neither during the fight nor after could I tell you what combos he attempted, because I was not concerned with defending each move. My strategy is to cut the way and strike to target regardless of what he does. All I know is that his attacks were intercepted and I hit target. That's how VT works. It's thoughtless and aggressive.

 

[guy b.]

I don't do sustained attacks. Everything I do is a "one off" because it prevents my opponent from understanding any pattern of attack that I may choose to do.

So if you don't do sustained attacking with automatic covering, and you don't lin siu dai da then it isn't really the case that "we do this too, nothing special", is it?

Your MA takes a completely different conceptual and strategic approach to VT. Ok with me.

 

[guy b.]

I liked to use

- Tang Shou to "bounce" my opponent's punching arm away, or
- Fu Shou to "redirect" my opponent's punching arm away.

I then punch with the same arm.

Not liu sin dai da

 

[JowGaWolf]

So if you don't do sustained attacking with automatic covering, and you don't lin siu dai da then it isn't really the case that "we do this too, nothing special", is it?
Your MA takes a completely different conceptual and strategic approach to VT. Ok with me.

My original comments were about Wu Sao and techniques that allow me to defend and strike with the same arm simultaneously. I was never talking about trying to sustain an attack. Then when I made the statement. Trying to sustain an attack is a strategy and nowhere in any of my statements did I say that my system or any other systems sustains the attack.

 

[guy b.]

I don't think you have shown attack and defence simultaneously with the same arm. You showed blocking then hitting with one arm, and blocking with one arm and hitting with the other.

Wu isn't a block in VT, it is the next punch. VT is all about sustained attack. That is how it works; the attack is the defence.

 

[KPM]

I don't think you have shown attack and defence simultaneously with the same arm. You showed blocking then hitting with one arm, and blocking with one arm and hitting with the other.

Wu isn't a block in VT, it is the next punch. VT is all about sustained attack. That is how it works; the attack is the defence.

And again......VT here meaning WSLVT and not Wing Chun in general? Because you seem to switch back and forth.

 

[guy b.]

And again......VT here meaning WSLVT and not Wing Chun in general? Because you seem to switch back and forth.

I have no idea what you do in your martial art or what it is called. I can only speak of VT.

 

[Vajramusti]

And again......VT here meaning WSLVT and not Wing Chun in general? Because you seem to switch back and forth.

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Not even that. It is guy and Lfj's interpretation of what they infer from Phillip Bayer-mostly videos.

 

[KPM]

I have no idea what you do in your martial art or what it is called. I can only speak of VT.

And again.....WSLVT or Wing Chun in general? Because whether you realize it or not, like or not,....there are several varieties of Wing Chun. Sum Nung Wing Chun, Ku Lo Pin Sun WIng Chun, Mai Gei Wong Wing Chun, etc. You don't have the trademark on any particular spelling. So....are you referring to Wing Chun as practiced within the WSL lineage, or are you speaking in more general terms? Or are you still so arrogant as to think that WSLVT is representative of ALL Wing Chun?

 

[guy b.]

I'm talking about YM VT, as taught to WSL. Do you refer to your martial art as VT?

 

[guy b.]

Not even that. It is guy and Lfj's interpretation of what they infer from Phillip Bayer-mostly videos.

I can't speak for LFJ, but I train with a group in the UK. I don't train with Philipp Bayer.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not liu sin dai da

This is the "连削带打(Lian Xiao Dai Da) - block (or deflect) and strike at the same time" that I have learned from the YM WC system. I do think we have trained different WC systems.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I didn't say same technique. I'm talking about the same concept.



Again, not the same technique. Same concept of simultaneous attack and defense functions built into each arm. By VT principles, we train to sustain the flow of attack until the target is finished. We don't just do "combinations" then pause to admire, or rest while the opponent is given an opportunity to recover.



No. For beginners maybe. It's called bodily/spatial awareness and thoughtless attacking principles.



I don't care. I'm not trying to anticipate and chase your techniques anyway.

I recently exchanged with a JKD guy who theoretically should be quite good at combos. But neither during the fight nor after could I tell you what combos he attempted, because I was not concerned with defending each move. My strategy is to cut the way and strike to target regardless of what he does. All I know is that his attacks were intercepted and I hit target. That's how VT works. It's thoughtless and aggressive.

This is the "连削带打(Lian Xiao Dai Da) - block (or deflect) and strike at the same time" that I have learned from the YM WC system. I do think we have trained different WC system.

Thanks for the picture. That's exactly the technique I'm talking about with the left hand. If you turn that man's palm down. Then you would have a Jow Ga Jiu Sao Jow that is initiated from the rear hand with a strike at the same time. If you switch the stance but keep the hands exactly where they are then you would have The only reason I know it's not a Jiu Sao is because the palm is up; that's the only difference. If you change the man's stance and keep the hands in the same position then you wold have a Jow Ga Jiu Sao initiated from the lead hand.

Edit: In addition that left hand Jui sao would have the option of actually striking that punch arm while in that position. In that scenario the left arm is both blocking and striking at the same time. In reality it's like being block and hit with 2 different hand strikes simultaneously.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's exactly the technique I'm talking about with the left hand. If you turn that man's palm down. Then you would have a Jow Ga Jiu Sao.

This move is called "Chai Da" in the long fist system. A blocking arm will changed into a grabbing hand and pull your opponent's punching arm toward you. It's "block/grab/pull and strike at the same time". The bread and butter move used in the long fist system.

 

[KPM]

I'm talking about YM VT, as taught to WSL. Do you refer to your martial art as VT?

And again....there are more versions of Ip Man's Wing Chun than what is taught in the WSL lineage. After all this time you haven't figured out that one way to avoid conflicts in discussions on any of these forums is to make it clear what you are talking about? If you are talking about WSLVT (which is what you study) then say that. Don't assume you can be talking about WSLVT and it applies to everyone else's Ip Man Wing Chun. Again, that is just a very arrogant attitude.

And just to point out the obvious. This was my original question above:

And again......VT here meaning WSLVT and not Wing Chun in general? Because you seem to switch back and forth.

To which you could have simply said "I am referring to what I practice, which is WSLVT."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And again....there are more versions of Ip Man's Wing Chun than what is taught in the WSL lineage.

When I learned WC from Jimmy Kao (YM's student) while I was a student in UT Austin, there were 2 other YM's students (Jeffery Law, Albert Law) who were also in UT Austin. I still remember that Bruce Lee's 1st movie "Fist of Fury" just came up. All 4 of us went to see that movie. They all said that they could not find any WC in that movie. That was many years ago.

All 3 of these YM's students had mentioned the "连削带打(Lian Xiao Dai Da)" as the following pictures. There is no way that all 3 can be wrong.

The Tang Shou may be considered as an attack on your opponent's arm. But the Fu Shou definitely is not.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When I learned WC from Jimmy Kao (YM's student) while I was a student in UT Austin, there were 2 other YM's students (Jeffery Law, Albert Law) who were also in UT Austin. All 3 of these YM's students had mentioned the "连削带打(Lian Xiao Dai Da)" as the following pictures. There is no way that all 3 can be wrong.

Another great picture. If you close that left hand and make a fist then the picture would be a Jow Ga Chow Da. (block punch). The Chow Da can be turned into an advancing chain punch but alternating the technique from the left hand to the right hand. If the person tries to punch using that left hand then the guy in the the picture would just do a Chow Da to the other side. The idea execution of this technique would be to move into your opponent and advance forward while he's trying to back out of it. Depending on the Chow Da is thrown and if any body weight was moving forward, there won't be any need for more than 3 or 4 additional attacks to finish the fight. The chain punching application is to keep the attacks coming while remaining close to the opponent. After 3 or 4 attacks at the top to the face, the fighter would drop for a low attack as the defender would be anticipating another attack at the top. If it's done with speed the defender won't even realize the person has dropped low until the attack lands.

You can see this similar technique in our flower fist form. at 0:55

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think that some may have the assumption that WC is 100% unique in all of it's applications and techniques. While it's true that there are some things that are only in WC, there are also other techniques that shared and found across other fighting systems.

This picture

and this picture

are the same concepts and use the same movement. The only difference is that the left hand is close and he's applying the technique to his opponents left arm.

This is what Chow Da looks like