WC Punch

[LFJ]

Not sure why you would think that using both hands simultaneously defend and attack is a Wing Chun only ability.

Because I didn't say using both hands simultaneously to defend and attack...

I said both arms in VT have dual functions. That is a single arm can defend and attack in one beat. Using two such arms in rotation allows for a sustained onslaught with automatic protections. Two dual-functioning arms are in effect like four. Much faster and safer, but to do this we need to have squared facing because it requires the use of elbows, and it can't be done when turned sideways where one arm is back.

 

[yak sao]

*facepalm* what do you expect of a punch without turning shoulder, hip and pushing you with the back-leg in? you're fools.

All of those times I've slammed people into walls, drove them back 8 or 10 feet or knocked them down with my punch, not to mention all of the times those things happened to me from someone else's punch....I must be delusional.
Thanks for showing me the light.

 

[MAfreak]

hahaha i should have expected those fairy tales from wing chun guys...

 

[yak sao]

hahaha i should have expected those fairy tales from wing chun guys...

Deny,deny,deny

 

[JowGaWolf]

Because I didn't say using both hands simultaneously to defend and attack...

I said both arms in VT have dual functions. That is a single arm can defend and attack in one beat. Using two such arms in rotation allows for a sustained onslaught with automatic protections. Two dual-functioning arms are in effect like four. Much faster and safer, but to do this we need to have squared facing because it requires the use of elbows, and it can't be done when turned sideways where one arm is back.

This still can be done when turned sideways.

1. "I said both arms in VT have dual functions" - This is true in other kung fu systems
2. "That is a single arm can defend and attack in one beat." This is true in other kung fu systems. A single Jow Ga Jiu Sao technique can defend, attack, and attack in one movement. I can defend against a punch, attack the punching hand, and attack the face with the same arm, same movement, and same technique of Jiu Sao. And this is done with one arm and one motion. Other kung fu systems can do the same thing.
3."Two dual-functioning arms are in effect like four." Just because one arm is forward and one arm back doesn't mean the rear hand isn't functioning. This is the basic concept of Kung Fu where two hands are dual-functioning and it doesn't matter what stance you are in. I don't have to be squared off in order to use two arms.
4."Much faster and safer" This is not always true. Faster is heavily dependent on the person. If I'm faster than you then I can use one arm, to pin your arm and interfere with the other. If I can read your attacks then I don't even have to be faster than you.

5. but to do this we need to have squared facing because it requires the use of elbows, and it can't be done when turned sideways where one arm is back.
I'm able to all of what you said above while being turned sideways where one arm is back and the other arm is forward. It may not be possible to do #1 - #4 with one arms is back but there are other kung fu styles where they do 1-4 with no problem while in a side stance.

 

[LFJ]

A single Jow Ga Jiu Sao technique can defend, attack, and attack in one movement. I can defend against a punch, attack the punching hand, and attack the face with the same arm, same movement, and same technique of Jiu Sao. And this is done with one arm and one motion.

That's a sweeping action from your opposite shoulder out? You can't do this effectively from the rear arm without squaring up first, can you? And you wouldn't sustain attack alternating this technique between arms, would you? Since they would be sweeping in opposite directions while keeping you squared. Would be kinda silly.

Just because one arm is forward and one arm back doesn't mean the rear hand isn't functioning.

So how do you effectively strike and defend in one motion with the rear arm while staying turned sideways?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Other systems have techniques that are simultaneous block and attack applications.

Such as the XingYi "Pao Chuan".

Taiji "fair lady works at shuttles".

Praying mantis "belly punch".

 

[MAfreak]

simultanously blocking and countering is in many systems, i saw it in karate, taekwondo, krav maga....
and its even a good idea, especially against weapons. also it fits to the body movement. lets say the strike from the opponent comes from the left, so you block with your left arm to the outside and turn therefore your right half of the body with the strike in.

 

[KPM]

5. but to do this we need to have squared facing because it requires the use of elbows, and it can't be done when turned sideways where one arm is back.
I'm able to all of what you said above while being turned sideways where one arm is back and the other arm is forward. It may not be possible to do #1 - #4 with one arms is back but there are other kung fu styles where they do 1-4 with no problem while in a side stance.

Just as a point of interest....... I have admired Maha Guru Stevan Plinck for years. He teaches Penjak Silat Serak and was the leading student of Pendekar Paul de Thours. I have a video series he did nearly 10 years ago. In that video series he did the Djurus (short forms) with primarily a "square on" orientation. This is how they are still done in Bukti Negara. There were many similarities to Wing Chun. I've seen more recent things from him and discovered that he has changed things around. Now he does the Djurus with a "side on" orientation. He made this change shortly after filming those videos. It resulted from a trip to Holland where he trained with one of Paul de Thours uncles who was even more senior in the system. Guru Plinck discovered that the older "Pukulan" systems used this "side on" orientation because combatively it keeps you safer by exposing fewer targets. It effectively protects your center. I asked Guru Plinck about this in a phone conversation recently and he said you only "give your center" to the opponent when you are in close and have gained control. Until you close and have control you protect your center by using the "side on" orientation. Transitioning for "side" to "square" and use of both arms is done essentially as JowGaWolf describes it in Guru Plinck's Serak.

 

[geezer]

Geezer
Can you share how you generate the power for WC punches? I'm interested to know because many kung fu practitioners in general really have a difficult time in generating power.....

@ Jow Ga --Sure. I've posted the following clip before, but I'll put it up again because I think it's a pretty decent and down-to-earth explanation of some of the elements that go into generating power with yat chi chung kuen -- the typical WC front punch with the vertical fist.

@ Kung Fu Wang -- John, I really liked your reference to testing your punching by not using your arm, "putting it behind your back" etc. It reminds me of my old wrestling coach, back when I was a a kid, who said that if you really mastered a takedown, you could do it with no hands, just using your body. And then he'd demonstrate it. He'd have us practice it too. ...I couldn't really pull it off , --but I got the point.

Anyway guys, check out when Emin punches with just his body, no arm, at about 2:20 in the clip below. We call this "shoulder punch", and, when the moment was right, I have pulled this off. A terrific close range technique. It can be very surprising, and shows that our punch involves the whole body, not just the arm.

 

[Phobius]

I asked Guru Plinck about this in a phone conversation recently and he said you only "give your center" to the opponent when you are in close and have gained control. Until you close and have control you protect your center by using the "side on" orientation. Transitioning for "side" to "square" and use of both arms is done essentially as JowGaWolf describes it in Guru Plinck's Serak.

I think this is where some WC students are missing out greatly as well.

First of all, a squared stance gives you a shorter range so you will in most scenarios when not in close range allow your opponent to hit you without being able to hit back. This means you end up at a range where you have to chase your opponent or retreat, the later does not go well with WC, or move over to only kicking which means you become transparent.

Might not be a big problem if you have active footwork and can outperform your opponent in that area. Sadly the stationary forms make many think footwork comes secondary to WC which I do not believe is the case one bit for a short range system.

Now if you have a good understanding of long range punching which does require a side stance, or at least rotation of body, for proper power generation. This would make it obvious that WC is not hurt by learning to move from long to short range punching. I even think WSL was a chinese boxer (or boxer of some kind) before learning WC/VT.

What is the point of doing squared stance when you are out of reach. Just like there is no reason to overdo the side stance either. We have much we could learn from boxers before having closed the distance, and no I have not personally seen any issue in transition between the two despite the difference in power generation. Then again I was studying a long range MA prior to WC.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if you really mastered a takedown, you could do it with no hands, just using your body.

Here is another good example. This is definitely can be called "high level" skill.

 

[KPM]

@
Anyway guys, check out when Emin punches with just his body, no arm, at about 2:20 in the clip below. We call this "shoulder punch", and, when the moment was right, I have pulled this off. A terrific close range technique. It can be very surprising, and shows that our punch involves the whole body, not just the arm.

[]

Here at the 12:30 mark is my version of the "no arm" punch.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's a sweeping action from your opposite shoulder out? You can't do this effectively from the rear arm without squaring up first, can you?

Jiu Sao can be done as a sweeping motion or a jamming motion meaning that it can fly straight or at a 45 degree motion. It just depends on where you hand is located when you initiate the Jiu Sao. For example, it doesn't always have to be initiated with the lead hand. Depending on what punch is coming at me, I can initiate it from the rear hand if required. You have to keep in mind that the other Kung Fu systems don't have as much of linear focus on attacking the center line and as a result, these other systems create and utilizes angles that Wing Chun doesn't utilize. Other systems also don't look at forward motion in the same way that some Wing Chun practitioners look at it. Kung fu systems use baiting techniques and "give way" techniques (for example where we don't resist the punch but instead give to it.) The giving way or going with the flow is what Wing Chun people here have called "Force Flow," for everyone else it's just known as flowing with the energy of an attack as a defense or flowing with the energy as an attack. Circular kung fu systems are known for flowing the energy from one technique to help power another technique. I'm not sure about more linear systems like Karate.

Being able to attack and move in angles allows a single arm to cover a significant amount of area without the need of the other hand being next to it to defend or deliver punches. If you punch and I move 45 degrees while your first punch is extended then your second punch either, won't be able to hit me or it won't land strong. Because I took the angle I still have 2 hand and 2 feet in which I can strike. I don't have to be directly facing you in order to strike you which is different from some lineages of Wing Chun where the face and body is always forward facing the opponent.

This video isn't from my school but you can see in the first technique how the lead hand defends against a 1-2 jab combination.

The second technique is simultaneously blocking and striking, or redirecting and striking, or striking and striking. The reason this varies is because that rising hand can be use to strike the opponents arms, block the punch, or redirect the punch. The difference is in the amount of force put behind it and whether or not the person decides to rise or jam the punching arm.

So how do you effectively strike and defend in one motion with the rear arm while staying turned sideways?

Here's one example:

I've been able to pull this one off before. It's an old technique so many people don't use it or practice it anymore.

Here's one that is more popular. Watch the 0:29 mark. the same technique is done with both hands. The forearms are blocking, redirecting or striking, the hands are striking.

 

[JowGaWolf]

@ Jow Ga --Sure. I've posted the following clip before, but I'll put it up again because I think it's a pretty decent and down-to-earth explanation of some of the elements that go into generating power with yat chi chung kuen -- the typical WC front punch with the vertical fist.

@ Kung Fu Wang -- John, I really liked your reference to testing your punching by not using your arm, "putting it behind your back" etc. It reminds me of my old wrestling coach, back when I was a a kid, who said that if you really mastered a takedown, you could do it with no hands, just using your body. And then he'd demonstrate it. He'd have us practice it too. ...I couldn't really pull it off , --but I got the point.

Anyway guys, check out when Emin punches with just his body, no arm, at about 2:20 in the clip below. We call this "shoulder punch", and, when the moment was right, I have pulled this off. A terrific close range technique. It can be very surprising, and shows that our punch involves the whole body, not just the arm.

The video shows Boztepe using his shoulder which is what is similar in other systems of kung. He says that the power is coming from his elbow but it really isn't. I slowed down the video and was actually able to see the extended shoulder. The extension of the shoulder is similar to what other fighting systems do. You'll be amazed at how much distance an extended shoulder covers. It covers more than double when you add a twist from the waist. In the Video Boztepe starts at a relaxed position. Where his fist isn't touching the person. He is then able to hit the person as a result of the extended shoulder. After he makes contact, he relaxes the shoulder which brings his hand back to the relax state before the extension of the shoulder. He probably gets a really fast return on his punches because the only thing he has to do is to relax in order to initiate a return, which is faster than putting the breaks on a forward movement and reversing direction in order to bring the fist back. Relaxing causes a natural return so to speak.

 

[geezer]

The video shows Boztepe using his shoulder which is what is similar in other systems of kung. He says that the power is coming from his elbow but it really isn't....

...He probably gets a really fast return on his punches because the only thing he has to do is to relax in order to initiate a return, which is faster than putting the breaks on a forward movement and reversing direction in order to bring the fist back. Relaxing causes a natural return so to speak.

Jow Ga -- I daresay you have a good eye for an "outsider" to WC, and I believe I agree with what you are saying. When we talk about the elbow in WC, we are referring to it's position (in front of us and downward-pointing and it's forward extension) and its movement--driving forward like a piston or push-rod.. Of course the actual power to shoot the elbow forward comes the triceps, the anterior deltoids, the larger muscles of the back., hips and even the legs ...a kinetic chain that goes all the way down to the ground. Of course, this linkage connecting our punch all the way to the ground is a universal concept in kung-fu, but Wing Chun accomplishes this in it's own unique (or perhaps peculiar) way.

As far as using the shoulder, well yes there is an elastic component of the shoulder that propels the punch, especially as you move into the Biu Tze material. The hips, torso and shoulder do move with the punch (a very short distance) and then snap back, causing the arm to snap out like snapping a wet towel. You know how you have to give a sharp little tug back just as the towel extends to make it snap? We do something similar with our punch. And as you noted, simply relaxing allows it to rebound back to a ready position from which another punch can be launched.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here at the 12:30 mark is my version of the "no arm" punch.

Great video thanks. It explains it the 90% the way I was taught except we use our waist and not hips. I like this guy he's very practical with his explanations. Even though he doesn't understand QI Gong beyond what he spoke of, but he understands enough of it to know how it helps him train. The way he touched the dummy and made it move is what I do to students when explaining it. I ask them to place a thick martial art pad for kneeing on their chest and I place my fist on it with an extended arm and I can knock them backwards a little. I don't do it as hard as that guy does because their really is a lot of power in what he was doing. He refers to it as a pulse. I call it a jolt; but either way it's a sharp explosion of energy that suddenly hits.
The only difference is that in my system we use the waist he uses his hips. I'm not sure if there is much different in power.

I just tried it the way that he stated by using the hips and what I noticed is that I have a lot more play in my knees than I'm used to. When the hips twist, the thighs twist and that causes some twisting on the knees. I can only assume the system I train in teaches twisting from the waist to prevent wear and tear on the knees.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Jow Ga -- I daresay you have a good eye for an "outsider" to WC, and I believe I agree with what you are saying. When we talk about the elbow in WC, we are referring to it's position (in front of us and downward-pointing and it's forward extension) and its movement--driving forward like a piston or push-rod.. Of course the actual power to shoot the elbow forward comes the triceps, the anterior deltoids, the larger muscles of the back., hips and even the legs ...a kinetic chain that goes all the way down to the ground. Of course, this linkage connecting our punch all the way to the ground is a universal concept in kung-fu, but Wing Chun accomplishes this in it's own unique (or perhaps peculiar) way.

As far as using the shoulder, well yes there is an elastic component of the shoulder that propels the punch, especially as you move into the Biu Tze material. The hips, torso and shoulder do move with the punch (a very short distance) and then snap back, causing the arm to snap out like snapping a wet towel. You know how you have to give a sharp little tug back just as the towel extends to make it snap? We do something similar with our punch. And as you noted, simply relaxing allows it to rebound back to a ready position from which another punch can be launched.

Thanks. I try my best. I'm just glad that there are people like you that don't mind sharing your knowledge and understanding of your own system because it really helps me to better understand mine. Here's a training video of me teaching students how to generate what would be considered the first phase of generating power. You refer to it as the "shoulder punch" I call it "breaking the root". From where I was standing in the video (I'm the the one with the stripe on the pants), I could have easily knocked the student into the window. This video was taken months ago and these students still have trouble with the technique. Their problem was that they were trying to generate power only with their arms, so I had them stop punching and made them do this exercise. As you can see in the video he didn't get it right that day. These main problem for many students is that they would stop the flow of forward energy before contact. Doing this is like putting on the breaks before the punch lands so all of that forward energy would never be utilized in the punch. I think maybe for some students, their mind is used to avoiding the crash of the bodies but with this technique, you allow the crash of bodies to happen without restriction.

 

[LFJ]

Such as the XingYi "Pao Chuan".

Taiji "fair lady works at shuttles".

Praying mantis "belly punch".

All 3 of those are blocking with one arm and striking with another. They may be simultaneous, but they aren't done with a single arm.

This video isn't from my school but you can see in the first technique how the lead hand defends against a 1-2 jab combination.

The second technique is simultaneously blocking and striking, or redirecting and striking, or striking and striking.

Again, I see blocking with the left hand, then punching with the right. That's using two arms and it's not simultaneous.

Yes. This is simultaneously blocking and punching in a single action with the rear arm, without squaring up... But, this is a one-off technique. It doesn't allow for sustained attack with automatic protection like this.

That is the strength of VT, the ability to sustain such attack, and it requires squared facing so that the arms can be alternated in rapid succession, striking with automatic protection in one beat.

Here's one that is more popular. Watch the 0:29 mark. the same technique is done with both hands. The forearms are blocking, redirecting or striking, the hands are striking.

And to be able to do it alternating both hands he has to remain relatively square on. He's not in a side stance. Plus, the main issue is whether or not we're talking about a one-off technique, or a strategy and tactic that allows sustained attack with automatic protection in each arm.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

All 3 of those are blocking with one arm and striking with another. They may be simultaneous, but they aren't done with a single arm.

After I have cross trained the WC system, I liked to use

- Tang Shou to "bounce" my opponent's punching arm away, or
- Fu Shou to "redirect" my opponent's punching arm away.

I then punch with the same arm. For safety reason, I like to use the other Tang Shou to make sure my opponent's arm will not come back fast enough.

Here is another example that you block your opponent's punch with right arm, you then punch back with the same arm. Again, for safety reason, it will be better to use the left palm to push on your opponent's punching arm after your right arm blocking so his punching arm won't come back fast enough.

In both cases, you will end with to use one arm to block (even if it's a re-block) and use the other arm to punch.

IMO, to use arm A to block and punch back with arm A is more risky then to use

- arm A to block, arm B to punch, or
- arm A to block, arm B to re-block, and punch with the arm A.