WC Punch

[Kung Fu Wang]

One basic WC training has bothered me for quite some time. In the following short clip, you can see when he throws a right punch,

- his body is not turning to his left.
- his right shoulder is not moving forward.
- he only uses his right arm to do that punch.

This training has contradicted to the general MA principle such as: All punching power should

- put your whole body behind your punch. This will require body rotation, hip, and shoulder movement.
- generate power by borrowing the counter force from the ground. This will require knee joint movement from bending to straight.
- ...

What's your opinion on this?

 

[Vajramusti]

One basic WC training has bothered me for quite some time. In the following short clip, you can see when he throws a right punch,

- his body is not turning to his left.
- his right shoulder is not moving forward.
- he only uses his right arm to do that punch.

This training has contradicted to the general MA principle such as: All punching power should come from the

- whole body rotation (put your whole body behind your punch).
- bottom and then reach to the top (generate power by borrowing the counter force from the ground).
- ...

What's your opinion on this?

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i dont punch like that...neither do my kung fu brothers.

 

[MAfreak]

and there are people around here, who don`t believe, that a wing chun punch is weak.

 

[yak sao]

and there are people around here, who don`t believe, that a wing chun punch is weak.

I see you are in Germany. Go in to any WT school there and ask for a demo of their punch, then come back and tell me how weak it is.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've been watching a lot of wing chun videos and wing chun applications and it seems that when they practice the form, they don't practice the generation of power that goes with it. I'm thinking that it's probably a way to show the system without worrying about someone "stealing" the techniques. They show the movements but not how to generate the power. Someone can steal the forms and the technique but without knowledge of how to generate the power the technique would be weak.

I think Wing Chun has the most stationary forms out of all of the systems out there and I think that was done on purpose. I learned today that Wing Chun and Jow Ga has a similar technique. The way that wing chun performs it in a form would never work in a real fight. The way that it's perform in Jow Ga requires fast leg movement and the body doesn't stay forward facing.

Many Wing Chun Practitioners that I've seen on youtube seem to think that they should fight forward facing like these guys

Fight wise there are tons of problems with fighting forward facing like this. It leaves a lot of openings, more than what most people realize. I think WC follows all of the other striking fighting systems, where a side stance is used which makes the person a smaller target. Squaring up only occurs during techniques that requires it. If you watch this video then you will see what he says about taking a wide stance 14:43, but when you see him spar, he actually takes a wide stance 27:20.

Ironically he was also misinformed about the side stance and the benefit of it, even though you see him use it. 28:38

I see some of the other Wing Chun lineages and they do exactly the same. You can see Bruce Lee use Wing Chun in a similar manner.

From what I've seen and have been able to understand by watching various Wing Chun practitioners and their forms. I would have to say that some WC student's aren't getting the entire technique within the system. If you are generating power with the punches then it shouldn't take 15 punches to the body to have a devastating effect.

As far as the Video that the OP posted, I really think they just left power generation out of the form.

 

[KPM]

One basic WC training has bothered me for quite some time. In the following short clip, you can see when he throws a right punch,

- his body is not turning to his left.
- his right shoulder is not moving forward.
- he only uses his right arm to do that punch.

This training has contradicted to the general MA principle such as: All punching power should

- put your whole body behind your punch. This will require body rotation, hip, and shoulder movement.
- generate power by borrowing the counter force from the ground. This will require knee joint movement from bending to straight.
- ...

What's your opinion on this?

I agree with you John. That video of Ip Chun is just arm punching. But maybe they were just trying to show the basic mechanics of the punch and not the power generation? And what actually makes this work is driving the punch in with the forward step...the Bik Ma.

In Tang Yik Weng Chun the whole body is used for power generation...from the legs, through the Kua and out the arms in a coiling wave-like manner. Ku Lo Pin Sun does this as well, though less emphasis overall and with a bit less of the coiling action through the arms from what I've seen.

And JowGa Wolf....in Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun, the "Pin Sun" means "side body" because the system does make use of the "side on" stance. There is even a "Pin Sun Choi" that is considered a power punch as a finishing move. It is an extended punch from a lower stance in a "side on" position.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But maybe they were just trying to show the basic mechanics of the punch and not the power generation? And what actually makes this work is driving the punch in with the forward step...the Bik Ma.

If the "basic mechanics of the punch" does not equal to the "power generation", this can be a serious issue here.

My concern is if you have spent 6 months in solo form training like this without using "forward step", you may have develop some habit that later on you will need to change. It makes sense to me that the "forward step" and punch should be trained together during day one. IMO, even with "forward step", the body rotation will still be needed.

 

[geezer]

I would caution Jow Ga not to make facile assumptions by comparing similar appearing techniques between the WC and Jow-Ga systems. Appearances of movements can be misleading. When you look at a system like WC from the outside, it's easy to misconstrue the context of a movement. Good WC is a very tightly engineered system. Context is very important.

As to fighting square to your opponent... others outside of WC dislike that too. My DTE Escrima instructor often chides me for that. Like you, he believes that it is better to fight with a turned or "bladed" orientation. I believe he has a valid point (which is why I train under him), but at the close range which is WC's forte, squaring up allows simultaneous use of both hands. Very useful. And as you proceed even closer into the clinch ...well, ever notice that wrestlers are also squared-up and use both hands?

Now about the punch in the forms. The forms isolate and train certain aspects of punching. The punch in the form is not identical to the punch in fighting, and in my WC we do train punching with the whole body. But we don't necessarily generate force the same way as boxers, karatekas, or Jow Ga people do. About forms in WC... it's not that stuff was hidden, left out or lost. It's that our forms are not "shadow boxing" ...or choreographed fighting sequences against imagined opponents. They work differently, more like reciting an alphabet or learning the "times tables".

To understand how Wing Chun is trained, you have to remember that our training has four main components: forms, solo and paired drills (such as lat sau), chi-sau, and free sparring (guo-sau). All four areas work in a complementary fashion. If you look at our forms out of context, of course they will seem incomplete.

 

[geezer]

If the "basic mechanics of the punch" does not equal to the "power generation", this can be a serious issue here.

My concern is if you have spent 6 months in solo form training like this without using "forward step", you may have develop some habit that later on you will need to change. It makes sense to me that the "forward step" and punch should be trained together during day one. IMO, even with "forward step", the body rotation will still be needed.

I was all set to disagree until I re-read this more carefully. You are absolutely right, John. And I think KPM would agree too. Since punching in WC (at least in my WC) gets its "body power from elastic movement of the joints, and is augmented by turning, stepping or, at the advanced levels, by "pulsing" the body (my term), then it is important to coordinate training in punching with steps and turns from the very beginning. This is, in fact, exactly what my instructor did. And he studied with Yip Man.

 

[Vajramusti]

I would caution Jow Ga not to make facile assumptions by comparing similar appearing techniques between the WC and Jow-Ga systems. Appearances of movements can be misleading. When you look at a system like WC from the outside, it's easy to misconstrue the context of a movement. Good WC is a very tightly engineered system. Context is very important.

As to fighting square to your opponent... others outside of WC dislike that too. My DTE Escrima instructor often chides me for that. Like you, he believes that it is better to fight with a turned or "bladed" orientation. I believe he has a valid point (which is why I train under him), but at the close range which is WC's forte, squaring up allows simultaneous use of both hands. Very useful. And as you proceed even closer into the clinch ...well, ever notice that wrestlers are also squared-up and use both hands?

Now about the punch in the forms. The forms isolate and train certain aspects of punching. The punch in the form is not identical to the punch in fighting, and in my WC we do train punching with the whole body. But we don't necessarily generate force the same way as boxers, karatekas, or Jow Ga people do. About forms in WC... it's not that stuff was hidden, left out or lost. It's that our forms are not "shadow boxing" ...or choreographed fighting sequences against imagined opponents. They work differently, more like reciting an alphabet or learning the "times tables".

To understand how Wing Chun is trained, you have to remember that our training has four main components: forms, solo and paired drills (such as lat sau), chi-sau, and free sparring (guo-sau). All four areas work in a complementary fashion. If you look at our forms out of context, of course they will seem incomplete.

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For my senior wing chun brothers-one shot to the right place is enough.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I agree with you John. That video of Ip Chun is just arm punching. But maybe they were just trying to show the basic mechanics of the punch and not the power generation? And what actually makes this work is driving the punch in with the forward step...the Bik Ma.

In Tang Yik Weng Chun the whole body is used for power generation...from the legs, through the Kua and out the arms in a coiling wave-like manner. Ku Lo Pin Sun does this as well, though less emphasis overall and with a bit less of the coiling action through the arms from what I've seen.

And JowGa Wolf....in Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun, the "Pin Sun" means "side body" because the system does make use of the "side on" stance. There is even a "Pin Sun Choi" that is considered a power punch as a finishing move. It is an extended punch from a lower stance in a "side on" position.

Thanks for that additional information about Wing Chun and the name of the punch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it is important to coordinate training in punching with steps and turns from the very beginning.

I had learned the long fist punching method during the 1st week as the following.

- bend both legs in horse stance and face north.
- straight both legs.
- twist body to face "west".
- punch out "right" fist to the north with right fist, right shoulder, left shoulder in a perfect straight line.
- bend both legs in horse stance and face north.
- straight both legs.
- twist body to face "east".
- punch out "left" fist to the north with left fist, left shoulder, right shoulder in a perfect straight line.

The

- leg bending to leg strainght,
- body rotation,

are both in the basic training.

It's interested to compare WC punch and long fist punch to see the difference.

WC punch (please notice the 90 degree angle between his right arm and his chest).

long fist punch (please notice the straight line from his right arm to his chest).

When I taught the UT Austin Kung Fu informal class, the 1st hour was taught by a WC instructor Jeffrey Law (YM's student), the 2nd hour was taught by myself. When these 2 different punching methods were introduced to students, they all got confused big time.

 

[geezer]

When I taught the UT Austin Kung Fu informal class, the 1st hour was taught by a WC instructor Jeffrey Law (YM's student), the 2nd hour was taught by myself. When these 2 different punching methods were introduced to students, they all got confused big time.

WC punch (please notice the 90 degree angle between his right arm and his chest).

long fist punch (please notice the straight line from his right arm to his chest).

When I taught the UT Austin Kung Fu informal class, the 1st hour was taught by a WC instructor Jeffrey Law (YM's student), the 2nd hour was taught by myself. When these 2 different punching methods were introduced to students, they all got confused big time.

I can see how that would happen. I have a couple of students who train both Escrima and Wing Chun with me. Our PCE Escrima program uses footwork similar to a boxer's while our Wing Chun is much more back weighted. Students have a very difficult time transitioning from one to the other. It's not impossible though. Most Americans are not bi-lingual either. Yet the world is full of multi-lingual people.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would caution Jow Ga not to make facile assumptions by comparing similar appearing techniques between the WC and Jow-Ga systems. Appearances of movements can be misleading. When you look at a system like WC from the outside, it's easy to misconstrue the context of a movement. Good WC is a very tightly engineered system. Context is very important.

I'm 99.9% sure with the technique that I'm referring to is accurate. The person that was doing Wing Chun referred to it as Wu Sao. In Jow Ga we call it Ju Sao. I saw the Wing Chun application of it and it's exactly the same function as what is in Jow Ga. The only way I can be wrong is if the person who is teaching Wing Chun was wrong about the application.
If this is Wu Sao then Jow Ga has almost the same thing with a slight difference in hand position and stance but the function is the same

As to fighting square to your opponent... others outside of WC dislike that too. My DTE Escrima instructor often chides me for that. Like you, he believes that it is better to fight with a turned or "bladed" orientation. I believe he has a valid point (which is why I train under him), but at the close range which is WC's forte, squaring up allows simultaneous use of both hands. Very useful. And as you proceed even closer into the clinch ...well, ever notice that wrestlers are also squared-up and use both hands?

There is a misconception that you have to be squared up in order to use both hands simultaneously and that's not true at all. I do it all the time in practice and sparring without squaring up. You can see here as well notice the stance.

Wrestlers are squared up because they aren't getting punched, elbowed, or kicked in the face, they also don't have to avoid kung fu sweeps. You have to keep in context why they are able to square up.

To understand how Wing Chun is trained, you have to remember that our training has four main components: forms, solo and paired drills (such as lat sau), chi-sau, and free sparring (guo-sau). All four areas work in a complementary fashion.

Jow Ga training trains the same way. Solo and Paired drills, sensitivity and bridging drills which would be like your chi-sau, we do free sparring as well. We also do forms which are designed to train technique, mobility, endurance, and serves as a library of techniques, combinations of attacks, counters, and defenses and application use. In addition to the solo forms we do 2 man fighting sets which is part of application training.

I wish I could show you the Jow Ga Jiu Sao applications because I think you would have no problem in recognizing it nor would you have any problem in understanding it because it will remind you of Wu Sao.

 

[JowGaWolf]

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For my senior wing chun brothers-one shot to the right place is enough.

That's how it should be and how it often is when a punch comes in with a significant amount of power.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Geezer
Can you share how you generate the power for WC punches? I'm interested to know because many kung fu practitioners in general really have a difficult time in generating power. Many just punch with the arms and it's clear when watching forms that there is no significant power in the punch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Many just punch with the arms and it's clear when watching forms that there is no significant power in the punch.

The day when you can punch without using your arm (such as to put your hands behind your back), the day that you will understand the "power generation" principle. This training can force you to concentrate on your body movement and your footwork only. In CMA term, this is called "身法 (Shen Fa) - body method".

 

[LFJ]

If this is Wu Sao then Jow Ga has almost the same thing with a slight difference in hand position and stance but the function is the same

The way you demoed it (that was you?) pressing out to the shoulder line would be considered chasing hands in VT.

For me, wu-sau is primarily the next hit position. If my lead hand is compromised the rear punch comes out immediately from wu-sau as a punch-ready position, not to wu-sau as a block.

This way the basic idea is to always hit. If interrupted it serves as defense but it is offensive. Not block then hit. Just hit.

There is a misconception that you have to be squared up in order to use both hands simultaneously and that's not true at all. I do it all the time in practice and sparring without squaring up.

Sure, you can use both hands simultaneously, but not both arms with simultaneous attack and defense functions in a single limb by using the elbows. Two arms with dual functions used together make faster attacks and provide more protection. It is as close to having four arms as we can get, so having a larger target doesn't matter if it's twice as hard to get to. Impossible in a side stance.

 

[MAfreak]

I see you are in Germany. Go in to any WT school there and ask for a demo of their punch, then come back and tell me how weak it is.

*facepalm* what do you expect of a punch without turning shoulder, hip and pushing you with the back-leg in? you're fools.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's not me in the video. other kung fu systems block and strike simultaneously they also can use both hands simultaneously without squaring up. Not sure why you would think that using both hands simultaneously defend and attack is a Wing Chun only ability. Other kung fu systems can do this without having to be squared up. Other systems have techniques that are simultaneous block and attack applications. For me the Wing Chun Stance isn't that deadly. I only need to strike your limbs in order to be successful in getting pass your guard. Limbs get damaged just like faces.