Watching street fight/attack videos ?

[Sapphire]

Yeah, it doesn't seem that brawling is a big thing in MA schools anymore. I like the occasional time in class when we practice 3v1 tactics so we don't get tunnel visioned.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, it doesn't seem that brawling is a big thing in MA schools anymore. I like the occasional time in class when we practice 3v1 tactics so we don't get tunnel visioned.

Doesn't everybody spar pretty much in the same room anyway?

So you have to be aware regardless.

 

[crazydiamond]

Yeah, it doesn't seem that brawling is a big thing in MA schools anymore. I like the occasional time in class when we practice 3v1 tactics so we don't get tunnel visioned.

We did the 3 vs 1 in one of our classes, Basically hold your ground with three guys punching at you. I would not say I liked it - in fact it was a bit un-nerving and irritating - but I valued the experience.

 

[lklawson]

Fighting in the streets means there are no rules and everything is fair game you shouldn't view street fighting in the same light as UFC sports..

Here we go again.

 

[lklawson]

I'm teaching an updated self-defense class next month and it'll cover the MMA and BJJ attacks and how to watch for them.

What makes you qualified to teach MMA/BJJ counters? I'm not saying your not qualified but some of what you write below throws up some red flags for me.

The knees and groin are easy targets even if you don't know a martial arts,

Because kicking to the legs is a new concept to MMA?

you just have to be careful with how you go about attacking those areas. Eyes are easy too as long as you aren't trying to start off with that first or trying to do it once someone has you in an arm bar. Bitting is fair game as well, for me it's a last resort because you don't know what diseases the other person may have. Breaking fingers is also good.

More red flags.

The thing about self-defense is that you have to get yourself mentally ready to deal with the horror of it. Pressing a finger in my opponent's eye with the purpose of forever blinding that person would make most people's skin crawl. You have to get rid of that feeling when the time comes, yes it's horrible but it could be the difference between life and death. People like that they can see through their eyes so trying to put one out is going to change your attacker's focus from fighting you to preventing you from blinding him.

Most people care more about seeing out of their eye than fighting.

It's actually pretty hard to successfully eye-poke when the other person is busy trying to smash your face in, moving about in chaotic patterns, and actively trying to not allow you to eye-poke.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[JowGaWolf]

What makes you qualified to teach MMA/BJJ counters? I'm not saying your not qualified but some of what you write below throws up some red flags for me.

I should have been clearer on that since no background was given. The counters that I'll teach aren't advance counters they are basic counters used to help defend against the shoot specifically. It's not being taught as a "If you do this then you are 100% guaranteed to be safe from it." Certain things can be done to make shooting in on a person more difficult than just standing right in front of a person with both legs next to each other. Simple things such as keep distance is effective against a shoot. It's not rocket science, but if a person isn't trained to fight and they think they are going against a person that knows MMA or BJJ then keeping distance is critical. You have to keep in mind that self-defense classes usually have people who aren't conditioned to fight so creating that distance is the counter. It's just not a physical counter. I wouldn't teach them the counters that I know because that requires conditioning and training of various types and it's not something they can learn just from a class. They will actually experience the amount of energy that it takes to grapple with someone so that they understand their physical limitations. I want them to feel what it takes to actually resist or attack for 2 minutes. With grappling every movement counts no matter how small.

They'll also learn some basic guards for defending against punches and kicks as well as a better understanding of where the power is in a kick or a punch so it's not just MMA/BJJ type attacks (the shoot) being discussed. I will also cover everyday items that they can carry with them that can be used to help defend off an attack. Certain pens make great stabbing tools, while hard objects like rock spheres come in small sizes that are good for throwing at someone or smashing against someone's face. They'll learn how to take inventory of an environment to identify things that can be used as a weapon or can be used to create distance between the attacker. So this is the approach that I'm taking. I don't want to give untrained people the feeling that they can go toe-to-toe with someone who trains to fight. Things like pepper spray are a given.

Because kicking to the legs is a new concept to MMA?

Take a look at all of the street fights on you tube and you'll see that very few people pay attention to their legs or their footing. Most people fight "upstairs" even when sparring. Muay Thai fighters love to bring the fight to the lower part of the body simply because they know most people don't have conditioned legs to withstand the punishment. Kicking to the legs isn't a new concept, it's just an easy target because most people don't think about doing it.

More red flags.

You have to keep in mind that self-defense isn't about trying to go toe-to-toe with a person. Self-defense can be as simple as running into a shop to get away from an attacker. Scratching eyes, poking eyes, isn't rocket science. If your hands are near their eyes then go for it. You have limited fighting skills and are fighting against an attacker with that may try to kill you, then why wouldn't you go for it? It's literally at your finger tips. Here is where biting has worked. Here's another case where biting worked
I can't tell a person with little to know fighting skills to pull of techniques that require training. They have to defend using the abilities and tools that they have at the time of the attack. When it comes to self-defense you have to fight with what you have and what you know. Here is where an eye gouge attempt worked.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here we go again.

I'm not putting down UFC. I'm saying that there are no rules in street fights and sometimes people will get into street fights thinking that there are going to be some set of rules as to what can be done or can't be done. I worked with teens who thought just like that.

 

[drop bear]

What makes you qualified to teach MMA/BJJ counters? I'm not saying your not qualified but some of what you write below throws up some red flags for me.

Because kicking to the legs is a new concept to MMA?

More red flags.

It's actually pretty hard to successfully eye-poke when the other person is busy trying to smash your face in, moving about in chaotic patterns, and actively trying to not allow you to eye-poke.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

My coach could eyepoke the hell out of me because he is the better grappler.

 

[drop bear]

You have to keep in mind that self-defense isn't about trying to go toe-to-toe with a person. Self-defense can be as simple as running into a shop to get away from an attacker. Scratching eyes, poking eyes, isn't rocket science. If your hands are near their eyes then go for it. You have limited fighting skills and are fighting against an attacker with that may try to kill you, then why wouldn't you go for it? It's literally at your finger tips. Here is where biting has worked. Here's another case where biting worked
I can't tell a person with little to know fighting skills to pull of techniques that require training. They have to defend using the abilities and tools that they have at the time of the attack. When it comes to self-defense you have to fight with what you have and what you know. Here is where an eye gouge attempt worked.

So. A while back a mate of mine got stabbed. And as we were fighting the guy another mate of mine kicked mr stab man in the head as part of a disarm. Now it worked. But it did not require training to pull off.

So if my untrained mate can use that technique live against a weapon. Why would I pay someone to tell me "kick them in the head"

I could have come up with kick them in the head.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So. A while back a mate of mine got stabbed. And as we were fighting the guy another mate of mine kicked mr stab man in the head as part of a disarm. Now it worked. But it did not require training to pull off.

So if my untrained mate can use that technique live against a weapon. Why would I pay someone to tell me "kick them in the head"

I could have come up with kick them in the head.

Not everyone has the ability to kick lol. They have 2 good legs, but they don't have the motor skill to kick someone in the face.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm not putting down UFC. I'm saying that there are no rules in street fights and sometimes people will get into street fights thinking that there are going to be some set of rules as to what can be done or can't be done. I worked with teens who thought just like that.

Yes, there are rules. If you want to stay out of prison, at least.

 

[Sapphire]

If you think about it, the "no rules" argument is kind of null and void as long as you know your distances fairly well.

When people argue that "street fights are no rules; they're worse than ring fights," they will generally argue for groin kicks and eye gouges. Now, some will get imaginative which is good, and say "I can basketball your head off the curb," and "I can step on your ankle and shatter it," or "I can german suplex you and yell John Cena," because no rules. Fair argument, right?

However, not many people have the training to manage that and you can figure out why, lol. And if you have quality training (meaning distance, timing, accuracy, balance/coordination, combinations and ferocity) then you can avoid 99% of the "no rules" techniques such as namely groin kicks. And I'm sure that 99% of even the most sub-par MA schools train you to stand in such a way that groin kicks aren't easy to land in the first place, so the "no rules" argument can easily be defeated.

Now, that being said, suppose someone has good quality training with all of the factors I listed earlier. The difference between "ring" and "street" fights doesn't have so much to do with what techniques are available to you and your opponent and the fact that there's no ref, the difference between "ring" and "street" is predictability. When you train in a "ring fight" school, you're in a ring or an octagon practicing combos. You're going running. You're lifting heavy weights and shadow boxing. You're sparring against people better than you, because a ring fight is expected. How do you train for a fight you aren't expecting?

 

[Hanzou]

I should have been clearer on that since no background was given. The counters that I'll teach aren't advance counters they are basic counters used to help defend against the shoot specifically. It's not being taught as a "If you do this then you are 100% guaranteed to be safe from it." Certain things can be done to make shooting in on a person more difficult than just standing right in front of a person with both legs next to each other. Simple things such as keep distance is effective against a shoot. It's not rocket science, but if a person isn't trained to fight and they think they are going against a person that knows MMA or BJJ then keeping distance is critical. You have to keep in mind that self-defense classes usually have people who aren't conditioned to fight so creating that distance is the counter. It's just not a physical counter. I wouldn't teach them the counters that I know because that requires conditioning and training of various types and it's not something they can learn just from a class. They will actually experience the amount of energy that it takes to grapple with someone so that they understand their physical limitations. I want them to feel what it takes to actually resist or attack for 2 minutes. With grappling every movement counts no matter how small.

You do understand that Bjj practitioners, and especially MMA fighters know far more takedowns than just the shoot right? Further, if you're really fighting someone trained in either of those styles, they're going to be masters at closing the distance, even under the pressure of strikes.

I mean, are you going to teach your students how to stop stuff like this;



Those are the kind of takedowns that are popping up in modern Bjj and MMA.

I think you'd be better served by actually getting a Bjj or MMA instructor into your class and actually teaching them that stuff. Why not invite a Bjj black belt down for a seminar?

 

[Dirty Dog]

You do understand that Bjj practitioners, and especially MMA fighters know far more takedowns than just the shoot right? Further, if you're really fighting someone trained in either of those styles, they're going to be masters at closing the distance, even under the pressure of strikes.

No, they're not. Masters of anything are few and far between, outside of Hollywood and fantasy novels.

 

[Hanzou]

No, they're not. Masters of anything are few and far between, outside of Hollywood and fantasy novels.

Okay then; They're extremely good at closing the distance, even under the pressure of strikes.

Better?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Okay then; They're extremely good at closing the distance, even under the pressure of strikes.

Better?

Not really. The average person training in any MA is just that; an average person.
But there are some people who just won't ever get that simple reality.

 

[Hanzou]

Not really. The average person training in any MA is just that; an average person.
But there are some people who just won't ever get that simple reality.

A person who happens to do something over and over again until they exceed the ability of an average person.

A person who practices TKD for example, should be able to perform kicks at a level far above that of an average person.

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Koshiki]

A person who practices TKD for example, should be able to perform kicks at a level far above that of an average person. Wouldn't you agree?

As a TKD practitioner (although old enough that we're not really very kick-y) I would agree.

However, only with the understanding that people untrained in kicking are generally really, really, really, bad at kicking. I'm not talking about the natural athletes with an affinity for martial arts that start when they're ten with dedication, but the average guy in a gym/school/dojo that starts at 23, a bit out of shape, and mainly just trains when he comes to class.

That guy is going to be better at a given aspect of martial arts than one would expect from someone completely untrained, but it doesn't mean that the average TKD guy can kick you in the head three times before you can react.

Just like the average guy in a grappling art can't necessarily get whoever they want on the ground in the first 5 seconds of a fight.

I think we all here agree that learning to fight is difficult and requires both time and diligence, and also that most practitioners of a given art/style/sport do NOT give it the time/diligence it requires to really be all that much of a game changer. Depending on the specific school, obviously.

 

[Hanzou]

As a TKD practitioner (although old enough that we're not really very kick-y) I would agree.

However, only with the understanding that people untrained in kicking are generally really, really, really, bad at kicking. I'm not talking about the natural athletes with an affinity for martial arts that start when they're ten with dedication, but the average guy in a gym/school/dojo that starts at 23, a bit out of shape, and mainly just trains when he comes to class.

That guy is going to be better at a given aspect of martial arts than one would expect from someone completely untrained, but it doesn't mean that the average TKD guy can kick you in the head three times before you can react.

Just like the average guy in a grappling art can't necessarily get whoever they want on the ground in the first 5 seconds of a fight.

I think we all here agree that learning to fight is difficult and requires both time and diligence, and also that most practitioners of a given art/style/sport do NOT give it the time/diligence it requires to really be all that much of a game changer. Depending on the specific school, obviously.

Well we should also take into account that the average person isn't taking any type of martial art at all, and that difference becomes even more stark.

Let's compare your average TKD practitioner at intermediate ranking, and compare their kicking ability to the average person who has probably never risen their knees past their waist line. Is there any doubt that the TKD exponent's kicks would look damn near superhuman in comparison?

The same would apply to a grappler's ability to close distances and perform takedowns. At crazy elite levels, you're doing takedowns like that Inamari gif I posted in the grappling forums. At intermediate levels, you should be able to close the distance and takedown an untrained opponent pretty easily.

 

[Koshiki]

At intermediate levels, you should be able to close the distance and takedown an untrained opponent pretty easily.

Oh yeah, I definitely. I thought you were saying that in a self-defense situation with an aggressor with some grappling training against a trained stylist of a non-grappling art, that they would be able to close the gap and take them down without effort. In that case I would disagree, it's very much going to come down to the relative skill-sets of the two individuals.

If you meant that against an untrained opponent, then I obviously agree, with some reservations.

Let's compare your average TKD practitioner at intermediate ranking, and compare their kicking ability to the average person who has probably never risen their knees past their waist line. Is there any doubt that the TKD exponent's kicks would look damn near superhuman in comparison?

I see your point, and I know what you mean. However, as a TKD guy whose style emphatically does not advocate flashy high kicks, I always have to harp on the fact that some average TKD practitioners only kick slightly more than the average Karate practitioner.

However, there is a big difference between flashy kicks that look superhuman, and being able to effectively use those kicks against someone who doesn't want to be kicked.


....Does anyone remember what we're actually talking about here?