Usefullness of sparring

[JowGaWolf]

Here’s the judo team story...

Thief Runs Out of Luck Trying to Carjack Van Full of Judo Team Members - 2002-08-20

It’s more detailed than what I read previously. And it’s better.

and it's still funny. The guy jumped into a "hornets nest" to escape the single hornet chasing him.

 

[JR 137]

Yes indeed, but no one attacks with a bear hug, well not unless they are built like a bear and just want to restrain you, far more likely is a flyIng knee in the back, a good punch in the ear, or my all time favourite, a stamp to the back of the knee, giving you the choice of smashing head first in to the floor or some serious knee damage, they won't run scenarios for them as there is no defen ce,so they just do bear hugs

I saw plenty of bear hug type stuff in my days of bartending and frequenting such establishments. True, it was mostly used a restraint or used as a grab and throw them out of the way. But often enough it was used as a way to hold someone for their buddies to tee off on. If you’re holding someone there so your friend can get some free shots in, it’s an attack.

And as I said to Drop Bear, the bear hug is just an example. Use any scenario, and the same stuff tends to happen.

 

[JR 137]

I attack with a bear hug. Most of the defences don't work against it.

And turtle in a ground and pound position.

I’ve seen very, very few defenses work against it. Then again, most often, the person using the bear hug came up blindly from behind and was significantly larger than the person being held.

But the bear hug scenario training was just an example. Actually, it was the first and most basic example I thought of. Drill other scenarios that way, and the same things apply.

 

[jobo]

I saw plenty of bear hug type stuff in my days of bartending and frequenting such establishments. True, it was mostly used a restraint or used as a grab and throw them out of the way. But often enough it was used as a way to hold someone for their buddies to tee off on. If you’re holding someone there so your friend can get some free shots in, it’s an attack.

And as I said to Drop Bear, the bear hug is just an example. Use any scenario, and the same stuff tends to happen.

I've never seen a Bear hug,whilst your buddies hit thing anywhere out side of a movie, maybe it's an American thing.

I'm not. Disagreeing with your point, rather using it to illustrate mine.
Which is,

Scenarios, only include attacks for which there is some( at least theoretical) viable defence, attacks from behind tend toFall into the no viable defence category,Other than don't let people sneak up behind you. So get left out,

Those that do get included bearhugs( unlikely really) and choke holds are indefensible if the person has greater strength body weight that you and some idea of what they are doing, I got out of a choke hold once by kicking hard against a wall and knocking is both to the floor, he let go, if he hadn't I would still have been in a choke.

Scenarios that are included tend to be fantasy movies that are not realistically like life and give people false expectations of their abilities. but the running a self defense program and telling people there's no defence are not mutually compatable

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've never seen a Bear hug,whilst your buddies hit thing anywhere out side of a movie, maybe it's an American thing.

I'm not. Disagreeing with your point, rather using it to illustrate mine.
Which is,

Scenarios, only include attacks for which there is some( at least theoretical) viable defence, attacks from behind tend toFall into the no viable defence category,Other than don't let people sneak up behind you. So get left out,

Those that do get included bearhugs( unlikely really) and choke holds are indefensible if the person has greater strength body weight that you and some idea of what they are doing, I got out of a choke hold once by kicking hard against a wall and knocking is both to the floor, he let go, if he hadn't I would still have been in a choke.

Scenarios that are included tend to be fantasy movies that are not realistically like life and give people false expectations of their abilities. but the running a self defense program and telling people there's no defence are not mutually compatable

Actually, it's pretty common to say, "Then your day is going to end badly." Students often ask about attacks that don't have good answers (some of them are even viable attacks). Sometimes we'll get into damage mitigation (if someone picks me up in a bearhug, what are my options for reducing the damage when they slam me), and other times we simply acknowledge that there's not a good answer if the attack gets that far. The best defense to most of that is being able to recognize it the instant it starts, and keep them from getting complete control. That's certainly the best answer once a choke hold attack starts. Of course, that doesn't apply to getting whacked from behind - you can't defend against something you don't know is coming and completes the moment contact is made.

 

[jobo]

Actually, it's pretty common to say, "Then your day is going to end badly." Students often ask about attacks that don't have good answers (some of them are even viable attacks). Sometimes we'll get into damage mitigation (if someone picks me up in a bearhug, what are my options for reducing the damage when they slam me), and other times we simply acknowledge that there's not a good answer if the attack gets that far. The best defense to most of that is being able to recognize it the instant it starts, and keep them from getting complete control. That's certainly the best answer once a choke hold attack starts. Of course, that doesn't apply to getting whacked from behind - you can't defend against something you don't know is coming and completes the moment contact is made.

Common for you or common for the ultimate self defense system,

For a lot of people their day is going to end badly no matter what they do, take three to one atttacks, that almost always ends badly, yet they are still practised along with a lot of other fantasy

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Common for you or common for the ultimate self defense system,

For a lot of people their day is going to end badly no matter what they do, take three to one atttacks, that almost always ends badly, yet they are still practised along with a lot of other fantasy

I've heard other instructors say variations of the same thing. Some are a bit too cautious about saying it, others perhaps a bit to cavalier with it. I'd be surprised if there weren't instructors who never said it.

Training for multiples, like training for a surprise choke hold, is first about learning to retain what control can be had and improve your odds of survival and escape. It is possible to survive - and even to "win", if they aren't very skilled nor coordinated as a group. If it's just some angry blokes ganging up, you've got a better chance than a couple of guys deciding to hem you in and take you apart.

 

[jobo]

I've heard other instructors say variations of the same thing. Some are a bit too cautious about saying it, others perhaps a bit to cavalier with it. I'd be surprised if there weren't instructors who never said it.

Training for multiples, like training for a surprise choke hold, is first about learning to retain what control can be had and improve your odds of survival and escape. It is possible to survive - and even to "win", if they aren't very skilled nor coordinated as a group. If it's just some angry blokes ganging up, you've got a better chance than a couple of guys deciding to hem you in and take you apart.

You know it's possible to win, because A) you've done it a number of times against attacker a variety of size abilities or B) you think it might be possible to win bAsed on a vivid imagination and watching Kung,to movies ?

A local doorman was kicked to death by three attackers his ma training and black belt didn't seem to help, perhaps he would have died quicker if he was untrained, it's fantasy you peddling, if you break free and run you have a chance, but as to winning?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You know it's possible to win, because A) you've done it a number of times against attacker a variety of size abilities or B) you think it might be possible to win bAsed on a vivid imagination and watching Kung,to movies ?

I know because folks have survived those situations, and even won. It has happened, and is thus possible.

A local doorman was kicked to death by three attackers his ma training and black belt didn't seem to help, perhaps he would have died quicker if he was untrained, it's fantasy you peddling, if you break free and run you have a chance, but as to winning?

Yeah, I said it's possible. Not guaranteed. And that description doesn't tell us whether they were the uncoordinated lot I spoke of, or a group that worked together well.

 

[drop bear]

You know it's possible to win, because A) you've done it a number of times against attacker a variety of size abilities or B) you think it might be possible to win bAsed on a vivid imagination and watching Kung,to movies ?

A local doorman was kicked to death by three attackers his ma training and black belt didn't seem to help, perhaps he would have died quicker if he was untrained, it's fantasy you peddling, if you break free and run you have a chance, but as to winning?

If you are going to train it. You need to train it realistically.

My whole game plan was the advantage of numbers. And you are right it rarely failed.

 

[jobo]

I know because folks have survived those situations, and even won. It has happened, and is thus possible.


Yeah, I said it's possible. Not guaranteed. And that description doesn't tell us whether they were the uncoordinated lot I spoke of, or a group that worked together well.

So you've not done it then, even once? Even against an uncoordinated group, ? Just heAr say

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you've not done it then, even once? Even against an uncoordinated group, ? Just heAr say

Nope, never needed it. Not sure what my chances would be.

And it's not "hearsay" when there's actual evidence of someone surviving such a thing. Or is it your contention there's no evidence anyone ever came out on top in a multiple-attacker situation?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you are going to train it. You need to train it realistically.

My whole game plan was the advantage of numbers. And you are right it rarely failed.

The odds are definitely always going to favor the side with greater numbers, all else being even remotely equal.

 

[jobo]

Nope, never needed it. Not sure what my chances would be.

And it's not "hearsay" when there's actual evidence of someone surviving such a thing. Or is it your contention there's no evidence anyone ever came out on top in a multiple-attacker situation?

Lots of people survive in that their not actually dead, yes lots of evidence for that, so are you teaching how to deal with multi attackers with no actual experience of how to deal with multi attackers

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Lots of people survive in that their not actually dead, yes lots of evidence for that, so are you teaching how to deal with multi attackers with no actual experience of how to deal with multi attackers

More than survive. Some actually manage to win.

And yes, the only personal experience I have is in training. I use what I can learn from video evidence and folks who have experience succeeding against multiples.

 

[jobo]

More than survive. Some actually manage to win.

And yes, the only personal experience I have is in training. I use what I can learn from video evidence and folks who have experience succeeding against multiples.

That's like having a driving instructor that has never driven but has watched you tube and talk to a few drivers,

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's like having a driving instructor that has never driven but has watched you tube and talk to a few drivers,

A bit more like having a driving instructor who has analyzed wrecks and found what works to avoid them in the moment and teaches those skills. That, of course, assuming there weren't very many people who actually drove, which is where your head is all tangled up. Not a bunch of people have both survived a multiple-opponent fight AND done the analysis to find out what seems to make a difference. Some bloke who happened to survive and doesn't really know why - nor whether that same strategy tends to be effective in other cases - isn't much help. If there were a bunch of folks with real-life experience teaching evidence-based multiple defense, I wouldn't bother. But there aren't, so I do what I can.

 

[oftheherd1]

Actually, it's pretty common to say, "Then your day is going to end badly." Students often ask about attacks that don't have good answers (some of them are even viable attacks). Sometimes we'll get into damage mitigation (if someone picks me up in a bearhug, what are my options for reducing the damage when they slam me), and other times we simply acknowledge that there's not a good answer if the attack gets that far. The best defense to most of that is being able to recognize it the instant it starts, and keep them from getting complete control. That's certainly the best answer once a choke hold attack starts. Of course, that doesn't apply to getting whacked from behind - you can't defend against something you don't know is coming and completes the moment contact is made.

Yep, that is one of the things not always drilled in my experience. You may know a defense, and it may be good if employed quickly enough, but who drills being able to recognize an attack and the defense needed?

 

[oftheherd1]

You know it's possible to win, because A) you've done it a number of times against attacker a variety of size abilities or B) you think it might be possible to win bAsed on a vivid imagination and watching Kung,to movies ?

A local doorman was kicked to death by three attackers his ma training and black belt didn't seem to help, perhaps he would have died quicker if he was untrained, it's fantasy you peddling, if you break free and run you have a chance, but as to winning?

Sad. Any chance he was trying to stay within the rules too long?

 

[jobo]

Sad. Any chance he was trying to stay within the rules too long?

No I think he was just out gunned, three big lads with a minor grudge, I think the fact he was waCKing back only served to turn what would have been a bit of a beating in to a death. One of the attackers was Found floating in the canal,Sometimes later, some One else with a grudge it seems