Usefullness of sparring

[Gerry Seymour]

Scenario training still valuable. This situation unfolds like many multi-attacker scenarios I've seen. Scenarios help bring a level of familiarity of an event so that you aren't going in completely clueless. It should be as real as possible without putting the participants in grave danger. You don't want scenario training to traumatize the participants. If it's too aggressive then people start to dread the training

And every now and then, the scenario training should bring up a bit of reality. Multiple-attacker training (the way I do it) often is done very soft - it's about building a habit of movement that helps regain some control. But if I only ever do that, people tend to get a feeling of superhuman ability dealing with multiples. So every now and then, I open up the rules a bit (keeping safeguards in place), to let people lose more often. Over time, they learn to win a bit more often even under that set of rules - and they learn not to give up when they start to feel overwhelmed (which most folks seem to do early in their training).

 

[JR 137]

Different.


You change the start point or change the victory conditions. And that is about it.

Then say go. And see what happens.

So rear bear hug is done when one guy is on the deck. Or one guy is free. And If you hit me in the nuts. I will suplex you.

It wasn’t different, really. Teacher set the start point - rear bear hug - and said go. Defender did what I described, unscripted. Attacker gave up rather than keep going like an attacker would’ve in the heat of the moment.

And I never really got into Street Fighter. Tekken holds my interest far more

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree it’s still valuable. Just pointing out it’s limitations. Every training method has got its limitations. Maybe if the teacher sent someone to attack a student at a random time and place without the student knowing the teacher was sending someone. I think that would probably be assault rather than consentual training though.

Movies and books often include that as part of training. And nobody ever actually gets hurt, and nobody calls the cops on them. Sometimes I wish I lived in movie-world, at least for training time.

 

[JR 137]

Movies and books often include that as part of training. And nobody ever actually gets hurt, and nobody calls the cops on them. Sometimes I wish I lived in movie-world, at least for training time.

I saw a 20/20 or Nightline or similar episode a while back where there were teachers sending people to attack students from a women’s self defense course. The students knew it was coming and agreed; they just didn’t know when and where. And the attackers wore those red man suits.

They filmed one guy hiding in a student’s garage and attacked her as she got out of the car. The woman was successful. Gee, I wonder why? How did the camera crew and the attacker get in there without her previously knowing? He came up behind her, but I’d imagine the squishiness of the red man suit probably subconsciously told her she’s it’s not real.

Staged for tv? Absolutely. She probably wouldn’t have done as well if she genuinely didn’t know it was coming. I mean, who let the camera, lights and sound crew in? But the principle is better than simulating it in the dojo if the student genuinely didn’t know when nor where.

Edit: Then again, maybe her husband or someone else let them in unbeknownst to her. Doubt it; TV isn’t the most honest thing out there.

 

[_Simon_]

It wasn’t different, really. Teacher set the start point - rear bear hug - and said go. Defender did what I described, unscripted. Attacker gave up rather than keep going like an attacker would’ve in the heat of the moment.

And I never really got into Street Fighter. Tekken holds my interest far more

View attachment 21483

Ah yep Tekken too... always chose Hwoarang or Jin Kazama, some of their combinations were really cool, I even practiced one of Jin's five-hit combos on the bag a bit (I think it was oi tsuki, left jodan mawashi, gyaku tsuki, oi tsuki, right gedan mawashi)

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just pointing out it’s limitations. Every training method has got its limitations.

yep. some more than others. While this is a black belt test, the chances that a gang of tkd students are going to attack you in the streets is very small. For self-defense this should have contained some of the things that one would expect to see in the streets, like punches lol.

Maybe if the teacher sent someone to attack a student at a random time and place without the student knowing the teacher was sending someone.

lol that would a butt kicking because only the attacker would know that it's training. The victim would think it was real and do things they may not have normally done in a scenario.

Sort of like how pranks go bad, where one guy jumps out to scare another and gets punched in the face.

but like you stated there is always limitations. There's no getting around that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And every now and then, the scenario training should bring up a bit of reality. Multiple-attacker training (the way I do it) often is done very soft - it's about building a habit of movement that helps regain some control. But if I only ever do that, people tend to get a feeling of superhuman ability dealing with multiples. So every now and then, I open up the rules a bit (keeping safeguards in place), to let people lose more often. Over time, they learn to win a bit more often even under that set of rules - and they learn not to give up when they start to feel overwhelmed (which most folks seem to do early in their training).

It's a difficult thing to do while remaining safe.

 

[JR 137]

yep. some more than others. While this is a black belt test, the chances that a gang of tkd students are going to attack you in the streets is very small. For self-defense this should have contained some of the things that one would expect to see in the streets, like punches lol.

lol that would a butt kicking because only the attacker would know that it's training. The victim would think it was real and do things they may not have normally done in a scenario.

Sort of like how pranks go bad, where one guy jumps out to scare another and gets punched in the face.

but like you stated there is always limitations. There's no getting around that.

I read about a “gang” of judo players attacking a guy, sort of...

There was a time when stealing people’s cars once they got done getting gas was fashionable. So a guy tried to steal a passenger van (one of those big ones full of seats), and timed it so he jumped in once the guy took the gas pump out of the tank filler. Unfortunately, he didn’t realize it was full of a bunch of black belt judo players on their way to a competition.

Reportedly, they didn’t have much trouble subduing the guy. Jacking a van full of about 12 black belt judo players isn’t the best idea. Especially unarmed.

 

[JR 137]

lol that would a butt kicking because only the attacker would know that it's training. The victim would think it was real and do things they may not have normally done in a scenario.

That’s kind of the point, though; doing things and being in situations you wouldn’t be in in the dojo.

Yeah, recipe for disaster. I could see the 6 o’colck news reporting about a local SD instructor accidentally getting shot because he jumped one of his students unexpectedly as part of the training.

And it screams of the movie Fight Club to me... “His name is Robert Paulson.”

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I read about a “gang” of judo players attacking a guy, sort of...

There was a time when stealing people’s cars once they got done getting gas was fashionable. So a guy tried to steal a passenger van (one of those big ones full of seats), and timed it so he jumped in once the guy took the gas pump out of the tank filler. Unfortunately, he didn’t realize it was full of a bunch of black belt judo players on their way to a competition.

Reportedly, they didn’t have much trouble subduing the guy. Jacking a van full of about 12 black belt judo players isn’t the best idea. Especially unarmed.

I remember that story, too. Still one of my favorite to view in my head (since I don't think there was any video).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That’s kind of the point, though; doing things and being in situations you wouldn’t be in in the dojo.

Yeah, recipe for disaster. I could see the 6 o’colck news reporting about a local SD instructor accidentally getting shot because he jumped on of his students unexpectedly as part of the training.

And it screams of the movie Fight Club to me... “His name is Robert Paulson.”

I always picture Clouseau and Kato.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I read about a “gang” of judo players attacking a guy, sort of...

There was a time when stealing people’s cars once they got done getting gas was fashionable. So a guy tried to steal a passenger van (one of those big ones full of seats), and timed it so he jumped in once the guy took the gas pump out of the tank filler. Unfortunately, he didn’t realize it was full of a bunch of black belt judo players on their way to a competition.

Reportedly, they didn’t have much trouble subduing the guy. Jacking a van full of about 12 black belt judo players isn’t the best idea. Especially unarmed.

I think I know the story that you are talking about. I had a good laugh about that, especially with how did the group end up looking like targets lol. Or was this guy just bad at picking targets.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think I know the story that you are talking about. I had a good laugh about that, especially with how did the group end up looking like targets lol. Or was this guy just bad at picking targets.

What? You don't think a vanload of athletic 20-somethings seems like a good target for a lone carjacker??

EDIT: As I recall, it was a college Judo club.

 

[JR 137]

I think I know the story that you are talking about. I had a good laugh about that, especially with how did the group end up looking like targets lol. Or was this guy just bad at picking targets.

Rule number 1 should be make sure no one’s in the car. Because then you possibly get kidnapping or someone you don’t want in the car.

Edit: actually, rule number one is no police cars. Rule number 2 is no one in the car. Both shouldn’t need to be rules, but I’m sure the level of intelligence of these guys makes it necessary.

 

[JR 137]

What? You don't think a vanload of athletic 20-somethings seems like a good target for a lone carjacker??

EDIT: As I recall, it was a college Judo club.

I think you’re right about it being a college judo team.

 

[JR 137]

Here’s the judo team story...

Thief Runs Out of Luck Trying to Carjack Van Full of Judo Team Members - 2002-08-20

It’s more detailed than what I read previously. And it’s better.

 

[drop bear]

It wasn’t different, really. Teacher set the start point - rear bear hug - and said go. Defender did what I described, unscripted. Attacker gave up rather than keep going like an attacker would’ve in the heat of the moment.

And I never really got into Street Fighter. Tekken holds my interest far more

View attachment 21483

Poor mans Sagat right there.

We will run five or six guys one after the other. So even if you get one easy out, or even if it is easy when you start. It just gets consistently harder.

You also get jumped more surprisingly as the minutes wear down. Because you just loose focus.

 

[drop bear]

What? You don't think a vanload of athletic 20-somethings seems like a good target for a lone carjacker??

EDIT: As I recall, it was a college Judo club.

We had a rebel sports store that used to be the same with shoplifters.

We would just pick them up in the car park after they were done.

 

[jobo]

IMO a problem that scenario training tends to fall into is that both parties know at least how and when it’s going to start. It’s easy to counter something you know is coming. And it’s easy to ease up when you know the counter is going to be more painful if you resist harder.

Example - teacher tells attacker to bear hug from behind. Defender drops his weight and shifts, while striking the attacker in the nuts. Attacker doesn’t hold on for dear life and continue to take more shots; attacker thinks “yeah, that’s good enough.” A real life attacker might drive the defender into a wall, slam him down, hold him for his buddies to tee off on him, etc.

Very simplistic scenario, but I think you get where I’m coming from.

Or my idea of scenario training is different than yours.

Yes indeed, but no one attacks with a bear hug, well not unless they are built like a bear and just want to restrain you, far more likely is a flyIng knee in the back, a good punch in the ear, or my all time favourite, a stamp to the back of the knee, giving you the choice of smashing head first in to the floor or some serious knee damage, they won't run scenarios for them as there is no defen ce,so they just do bear hugs

 

[drop bear]

I attack with a bear hug. Most of the defences don't work against it.

And turtle in a ground and pound position.