universal pattern

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Quoted by Rainman
Most guys are probably laughing at your inability to learn and remain open.

I have never tried to make it sound like I know it all. Unfortunately in a faceless, voiceless, media like this forum it's hard to distinguish what is meant by some statements. Sometimes genuine questions can be mistaken for challenges. I have to say that I've actually learned quite a bit just from reading the posts. I find that a forum, like this one, that attracts people from across the globe offers a broad perspective. There is no way that I could sit at home and try to think of every possible variation of every possible movement. It's an asset to be able to communicate with knowledgeable people like Mr. C. Mr. O'bryant (sp?), Mr. Farmer, Mr. Chapel, and so many others that spend time here. That is why I came to this forum to ask my groundfighting question. With such a repository of knowledge, I figured that I could get some type of answer here. I appreciate your concern about my state of learning, however, I assure you that I am always willing to be taught. That's why I ask questions.

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Mace


Rainmain,
Could you please clarify this statement for me, I'm a little confused. When I teach my yellow belts the tech mace of aggresion and they hit the outward elbow to the sternum, their partner/opponent usually backs up a step or two. So how would we still be in the 4th range? The graft into sword of destruction reminds me somewhat of the motion found with the extention to bow of compulsion, a little rearranged of course if you do the kick as written in SD. Am I misunderstanding the application of Mace of Agression, the range of the opponent after the outward elbow, or your take on the graft?
Respectfully,
Mace

Sure Mace- the difference is not to release the trap/pin. Not so much for yellow belts as their grafting comes from other places at this point in their training for us. The way I look at range is once in the fourth range finish the attacker off and keep them dimensionally checked until extraction. Think about grafting into leap of death or at least using the arm bar/break takedown once in that far- if you choose not to release them and push/strike them away with an outward elbow. Depending on the force of the blow and plane ,which is generally on a #1, it is viable to end the technique there and get away from the situation using the release ideas... depending on where the strikes are place the attacker may not be done.

Creating distance (going back to contact penetration) and then trying to close it again could be dangerous and not economical for the advanced student. For me grafts are designed with the finish in mind.

:asian:

 

[Mace]

Rainman,
That does make sense but guess that I should clarify that I do not keep the arms after the initial pin. I don't like one handed techs. I'll insert an eyeslice on the way to the elbow (sandwich) and hit the outward immediately after. I will usually follow up with sword and hammer at this point, my arm is already in motion with the outward elbow so I let the hand fly with the chop. Course I could just use a crossing side kick.
Hope that helps explain where I was coming from,
Mace

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Mace

Rainman,
That does make sense but guess that I should clarify that I do not keep the arms after the initial pin. I don't like one handed techs. I'll insert an eyeslice on the way to the elbow (sandwich) and hit the outward immediately after. I will usually follow up with sword and hammer at this point, my arm is already in motion with the outward elbow so I let the hand fly with the chop. Course I could just use a crossing side kick.
Hope that helps explain where I was coming from,
Mace

It is not one handed. The left is controlling as in contact manipulation checking height width and depth. So it is actively doing something just not so visable. No need to clarify I know what you are doing- I don't disagree but why go back to contact penetration once inside the fourth range? If you are going to sandwhich why not use that movement to turn him around and go into back breaker? The sandwhich can be taken from fatal cross and inserted between moa and backbreaker. What zones are you checking/controlling to insure his placement and postions are setups for the next sequence?

 

[Mace]

Hey Rainman,
I think that we are both on the same page here, we just have different ways of doing it which is the beauty of our art. I initially check height, width and depth with the hammer to the forearms (after the nose, of course) in conjunction with the pin being a strike. Its just using overlaping circles. Using Marriage of gravity, anchoring, alignment and so forth (and running it at a good speed), all of my partners have buckled to chest level, setting up the head for the slice and elbow sandwich. I really don't believe there would even be an outward elbow but it is there. At one time I did perform the tech the way you are describing, its just changed over the years with some good guidance.
Respectfully,
Mace

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Mace

Hey Rainman,
I think that we are both on the same page here, we just have different ways of doing it which is the beauty of our art. I initially check height, width and depth with the hammer to the forearms (after the nose, of course) in conjunction with the pin being a strike. Its just using overlaping circles. Using Marriage of gravity, anchoring, alignment and so forth (and running it at a good speed), all of my partners have buckled to chest level, setting up the head for the slice and elbow sandwich. I really don't believe there would even be an outward elbow but it is there. At one time I did perform the tech the way you are describing, its just changed over the years with some good guidance.
Respectfully,
Mace

Hey Mace,

Nice to get some feedback. The first zone cancellation is simultaneous with the first 3 actions. Pin, step, strike. Checks them all by moving the head back off its natural position. When releasing do you have to shuffle in for the outward elbow strike? That is how I teach it but maintain the pin to extend and continue in the fourth range. I am interested to know why you opt to move back to range 3 when extending MOG out. I know that during freefighting if I fail to execute in the 4th range with my teacher it ends pretty badly. Do you teach yellow belts that particular graft?

:asian:

 

[Mace]

Hey Rainman,
I'm not exactly sure which graft you mean for my yellows, but I can still answer. I will teach my yellows to add sword and hammer onto this tech, nothing else. I drill them on the deflecting hammer pattern for speed and power and that's the main focus.
I don't really have to release the arms anywhere in the tech, I'm not pinning the hands to my chest as "written". My pin is a strike and my hammerstrike to the forearm nerves drops their height setting up the inward/outward elbow. I hit the 2 elbows quick enough that the head is traveling back after the first and sets the sternum or solar plexis (I have some tall students) for the outward. I keep the momentum moving forward. If I need to, I will shuffle, but I haven't needed to in a while. My students testing for yellow do have to shuffle, the motion is still new to them, but by their orange belt test their execution is fast and strong enough that the majority no longer need to shuffle. That's just the way me and my guys do it.
Respectfully, (and thanks for the conversation)
Mace

 

[Les]

Originally posted by jeffkyle




It would be cool to have an entire room that is just one big universal pattern.

Sort of like a Star Trek holodeck? That would be cool.

Les

 

[Kenpo Wolf]

Originally posted by Les




Sort of like a Star Trek holodeck? That would be cool.

Les

And then we can put some hologram training partners in the program too. That would be awesome

 

[Les]

Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf



And then we can put some hologram training partners in the program too. That would be awesome

I had thought of that, and made a short list.


Mr Parker, Paul Mills, Dennis Conatser, Gary Ellis, a few others, and of course, Gou Ronin. (They'll need someone to dummy for them)

Les

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf



And then we can put some hologram training partners in the program too. That would be awesome

And you could totally try out your kenpo for "real"!! That would be cool to be able to totally beat the crap out of someone, and they just get right back up and wait for you to do it again, without medical help!

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by RCastillo



Yes, but first, I'm still waiting for my Universal pattern T shirt! So, where is it?:soapbox:

Can I interest you in one of these?

http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=kenponovelties

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kirk

Can I interest you in one of these?

http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=kenponovelties

Who stole my copyright saying?
If you know let me know.


:asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Who stole my copyright saying?
If you know let me know.


:asian:

Ummm, NO IDEA! I do know that "they" tried to give you
credit on each item, but it wouldn't fit! *whistle*

 

[Chronuss]

wow, passion is definitely one way to put. this was almost like a debate competition. very well played and defended, gentlemen.

however, I do have an idea about the original question in the thread.

Originally posted by Rainman

What does anyone use the universal pattern for?:idunno:

well, like KenpoTess said, there 8, 16, and 32 foot movements on each side while standing in the center facing 12 o'clock (I may get a little over my here, so some interjections will be graciously welcomed). originally, there were 32 techniques for each belt level when SGM Parker first developed it branching it from the 32 possible movements for each leg on each side(3 o'clock, and 9 o'clock, repsectively). today, excluding the 10 for yellow belt, most of the ranks have 16 techniques and some of the upper ranks have 20.

(I pasted a pic of the UP at the bottom..I hope)
also, while standing in the center of UP, each quarter circle/line shows on each side for an appropriate stance (ie, horse, bow, twist).

it also shows where any attack can originate from and also where a counter can be throw. as stated earlier in the thread it shows all bodily motion possible with hands and feet.

like I said, I might be over my head, so some help would be...helpful

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Chronuss

today, excluding the 10 for yellow belt, most of the ranks have 16 techniques and some of the upper ranks have 20.

Remember, that is not all assosciations. that is another topic of hot debate.

 

[Chronuss]

...maybe I shouda said that is IKKO curriculum.

 

[Chronuss]

been having a lotta screw ups. at least people are letting me know I'm wrong and not letting me continue with my stupidity.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Chronuss
been having a lotta screw ups. at least people are letting me know I'm wrong and not letting me continue with my stupidity.

Not stupidity at all!! Just learning you are hummmmmphhhhhh

 

[Seig]

21 days til you get to meet the MMA Sasquatch!