United Martial Artists for Christ

[WaterGal]

My sifu is a Christian and he talks about it sometimes but he never preaches about it. My older sifu from American Kenpo never spoke of his faith or lack of it, I have no clue what his faith was.

One thing that bugged me about one of the tournaments we went to which was hosted by Marc Unger held had a few minutes of prayer before the tournament began. We were not forced to pray but some individuals would give us dirty looks if we did not. Sifu was one of those who did not pray and one man told him "you are sitting a poor example for your students." He said to him " we are here for kumite and not for cathecism."

I agree with him entirely. I don't mind a moment of silence to pray, I just don't like when you host it as something optional but negatively judge people for excersicing the choice to not do it.

If that's the case then only invite Christians to your tournament if you have such an issue with non Christians, or people who simply don't pray before the kumite.

I'd be pretty uncomfortable going to a martial arts event that had prayer in it too. I don't have any problem with people praying before they train or compete, but when you have an official group prayer as part of your event, even if you say it's optional, it can lead to the kind of uncomfortable situation you're talking about.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I once had a prospective new student tell me that he couldn't do the bowing because it was too close to idol worship, and he couldn't do mokuso (moment of meditation before and after class) because it was against his religion. I told him "I would never require you to do anything that you thought went against your religion" as I walked him out the door.

I never thought about it, but depending on what you are bowing to, it IS very close to idol worship, especially to someone with a western mind. Don't really see the issue with mokuso though

 

[Tames D]

I never thought about it, but depending on what you are bowing to, it IS very close to idol worship, especially to someone with a western mind. Don't really see the issue with mokuso though

I never saw Bowing as idol worship. I think it's a better way to greet a person and to show respect, than to touch their hand. I would prefer Bowing to be our custom rather than shaking hands.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I never saw Bowing as idol worship. I think it's a better way to greet a person and to show respect, than to touch their hand.

Im thinking more of bowing to the picture of the founder, like the bowing to kano jigoro that they did at the judo club I went to. Bowing to each other would just be respect. I always thought of it as tradition and honoring the ancestor type thing, but could definitely see it appearing as idol worship.

 

[Juany118]

To the Christian theologian you spoke to maybe. Some of the ones whom I've talked to actually encourage meditation (they view inner peace and washing away sin/peace with God as two different things). Of course, you stated that the one you talked to was catholic, while I am Lutheran and most of the Christian scholars that I know are methodist, so that might have something to do with it.

Well even the one I talked to said meditation is good but the focus should be on scripture. Say a Psalm that has personal meaning to you. You should also meditate on your Sins/failings. His point was that you don't look for the absolution or whatever through yourself, that we can't fix spiritual issues on our own, but only through God. Our conversation was more than "can I meditate" it actually lasted a couple hours over a bottle of Wild Turkey lol.

 

[Juany118]

If you are a Christian most believe that God willed it because the caanites were evil and threatened the Jews. Now whether you believe it or not is up to you, and I won't argue with you about it. Just because there are warriors in the Bible does not mean that the entire Bible is about that.

I feel like this type of outlook focuses too much on a small part of it. It's like if I were to take for example the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and fixate specifically on homosexuality.

That would be foolish because in that story the people of those cities did far worse things. Lawmen would attack people and then fine them for bleeding on the sidewalk, rich people would gloat about their wealth to the poor and rub it in that they had everything while they had nothing. They would even give them gold ingots with their crests inscribed into them. No merchants would take trade them though because they had assumed they had stolen the gold.

The person essentially staved to death while they were technically rich, the rich person would then loot their body and take their gold back.

So to fixate on homosexuality is like to fixate on Charles Mansons drug use, sure he did drugs, but the fact he was a murderous psychopath is far worse than dropping some LSD.

Anyway that's my take on this, they are taking a small part of a story and fixated too much on it when the entire message is not be a warrior and beat people up, but about being a better all around human being.

My only point was to show that they were not simply Warriors but Warriors who engaged in Warfare on a level we arguably didn't even see in WWII.

As my original course of study, as I said, was History and Philosophy, when I look at History I do not make moral judgements regarding wars past. I simply look at the tactics and strategies used. If we start making moral judgements we get into all sorts of murky territory. First it starts with the age old cliché "the victor writes the history". Due to this the possibility of propoganada, then the circular arguments of "well yeah Nation A may have done X but Nation B did Y."

Just look at WWII. Yes the Allies were the "good guys" but the Bomber Pilots who fire bombed Dresden and Tokyo lived long enough to see their missions become something we would call a War Crime if it was done today. I am not a fan of those kind of arguments.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well even the one I talked to said meditation is good but the focus should be on scripture. Say a Psalm that has personal meaning to you. You should also meditate on your Sins/failings. His point was that you don't look for the absolution or whatever through yourself, that we can't fix spiritual issues on our own, but only through God. Our conversation was more than "can I meditate" it actually lasted a couple hours over a bottle of Wild Turkey lol.

Yeah, I gathered that...the people whom I've talked to about the topic would still disagree. They would suggest that there are two ways to meditate: One focusing on God (which would be through scripture or outward signs) and another one through looking inward. In a way this is still focused on God as I believe the argument (it's been years since I've actually discussed it in depth) was that the holy spirit is inside everyone, so if you are working on yourself and trying to improve your own spirituality you are unconsciously using the holy spirit to do so. Very different idea philosophically than eastern religions, but in practice this meditation (the one focusing on self, not on God) is almost exactly the same as some eastern meditations.

Again, I have no clue if this is the prevailing theory or not. It was very popular with the Methodists I knew who were studying christian theology, and when I brought it up to my own pastor (different denomination and different state) he agreed with it. I could easily see Catholics or other denominations disagreeing with this idea though.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I once had a prospective new student tell me that he couldn't do the bowing because it was too close to idol worship

Kung Fu gets that all the time. The eastern bow doesn't have the same meaning as the western bow. The western bow means you submit fully and is seen as a weakness. President Obama was raked over the coals for bowing lol. The bow that is done in Martial Arts is a respect thing and not an idol worship thing. The concept of is totally lost on many in western societies, which is ironic because people in the U.S. do it all the time with roadside memorials.

 

[Juany118]

Yeah, I gathered that...the people whom I've talked to about the topic would still disagree. They would suggest that there are two ways to meditate: One focusing on God (which would be through scripture or outward signs) and another one through looking inward. In a way this is still focused on God as I believe the argument (it's been years since I've actually discussed it in depth) was that the holy spirit is inside everyone, so if you are working on yourself and trying to improve your own spirituality you are unconsciously using the holy spirit to do so. Very different idea philosophically than eastern religions, but in practice this meditation (the one focusing on self, not on God) is almost exactly the same as some eastern meditations.

Again, I have no clue if this is the prevailing theory or not. It was very popular with the Methodists I knew who were studying christian theology, and when I brought it up to my own pastor (different denomination and different state) he agreed with it. I could easily see Catholics or other denominations disagreeing with this idea though.

I think you may have a point. In my reading the Methodist Church is, in many ways, the most Liberal Organized Christian Church in the US. There are even a few articles that I have read that address that as it has liberalized it's theology they have seen a reduction in participation. So it seems we are seeing am example of the divide we are seeing between Conservative and Liberal theological views.

 

[Juany118]

Kung Fu gets that all the time. The eastern bow doesn't have the same meaning as the western bow. The western bow means you submit fully and is seen as a weakness. President Obama was raked over the coals for bowing lol. The bow that is done in Martial Arts is a respect thing and not an idol worship thing. The concept of is totally lost on many in western societies, which is ironic because people in the U.S. do it all the time with roadside memorials.

I remember participating on a panel for a BBC thing (nothing to do with Martial arts). A picture went viral of a son who had left his family kowtowing when he met his parents. Many were saying how that was ridiculous and overly dramatic. My point was to say, based on the Chinese customs regarding filial piety that he broke a major taboo in basically abandoning his family. In such a circumstance words are often not enough and that kowtowing was a culturally valid way of showing he was indeed very sorry that he had hurt them in that way.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Kung Fu gets that all the time. The eastern bow doesn't have the same meaning as the western bow. The western bow means you submit fully and is seen as a weakness. President Obama was raked over the coals for bowing lol. The bow that is done in Martial Arts is a respect thing and not an idol worship thing. The concept of is totally lost on many in western societies, which is ironic because people in the U.S. do it all the time with roadside memorials.

This to me pretty much speaks for the major difference between Western and Eastern cultures. In the West people are obsessed with proving how much better they are than those around them, whereas Eastern cultures typically look for balance and mutual respect between individuals. The easiest way I have of describing the bow to people unfamiliar to Eastern culture and Eastern Martial Arts is to think of the bow like a hand-shake.

 

[drop bear]

I'd be pretty uncomfortable going to a martial arts event that had prayer in it too. I don't have any problem with people praying before they train or compete, but when you have an official group prayer as part of your event, even if you say it's optional, it can lead to the kind of uncomfortable situation you're talking about.

What about to Satan?

 

[drop bear]

Im thinking more of bowing to the picture of the founder, like the bowing to kano jigoro that they did at the judo club I went to. Bowing to each other would just be respect. I always thought of it as tradition and honoring the ancestor type thing, but could definitely see it appearing as idol worship.

Apparently you can nod your head or something though and that is ok. Trained tkd with some Muslims at one point and the bow was a big issue.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What we need now is a United Protestant Karate Fighters Union and a Jews for Kumite group, Muslims for Muay Thai, the Jehova Jump Kickers, and, of course, the Buddhist Bad Asses. Hell, we can host a tournament, I'll gladly ref.

I hope nobody takes my comment as blasphemous, just funnin' a bit. Let's all pull the trigger for Jesus, shall we?

Rastas for Randori. Judo for Jesuits. I can't think of anymore.

Pencak Silat for Pastafarians
Hapkido for Hindus
Wing Chun for Wiccans
Sumo for Satanists
Soo Bahk Do for Sikhs
...
I can do this all day.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What about to Satan?

HA ... good one. That's a direct conflict to my well being. There's just something not enjoyable about standing while getting pimp slapped by a prayer that points out that what you believe in is trash. lol. It wasn't a prayer of good will.

 

[Juany118]

Pencak Silat for Pastafarians
Hapkido for Hindus
Wing Chun for Wiccans
Sumo for Satanists
Soo Bahk Do for Sikhs
...
I can do this all day.

Aiki-jujutsu for Atheists?

And my wife would say of me...

Wing Chun for Wing nuts and Kali for crack pots. Lol

 

[oftheherd1]

@TamesD: I am not familiar with this group.

Being a lapsed Catholic and someone who now, if forced to describe their practice, follows a path that combines Buddhist and Confucian principles, I can explain the problem. I once had a talk with a family friend who is a Priest and he explained the issue this way when I tried to argue that eastern and western practices were compatible. At the time I was still a practicing Catholic but had started meditation as a form of stress relief.

I would agree that easter and wester practices are not compatible. They differ too much on how to attain eternity in heaven.

When one meditates, he said, in the Eastern method one is looking within for peace within ones self. However peace can only be found through God. One can not simply meditate in order to recognize ones true conditions, to "simply" allow negative emotion to wash away so that we can not only be better people ourselves but to then likewise treat others with more respect. No amount of meditation, he said, can melt away the Sin that separates us from each other, God and true peace.

I am not a catholic, nor have I ever been. But from what I know of the catholic faith, and from my own christian beliefs, I would take exception to your priest: We can not, nor should we do away with all negative emotion. We should still view sin negatively, we should allow righteous anger. If meditation cannot help separate us from the sin that separates us from God, what does? My religious belief is that acceptance of Jesus Christ as my savior who died for my sins' forgiveness, who was raised from the dead, and continuing confession of my sins to God. That separates me from sin that would keep me from God and heaven.

The Bible, he said, even commands us to meditate but it commands us to mediate upon the Word of God and to reflect upon the Sins that seperate us from him.

That is nice, but too simplistic. Go to BibleGateway - : msditate and type in the search word meditate. That will tell you how many times, and more importantly, give the verses. If you type in the verse in the search, you will also be given the opportunity to see the verse in context, and in its entire chapter. It is always good to see a verse at least in context. Point being, we aren't only told to meditate on the word of God. Also, why would we reflect on the sins that separate us from God? Those of us who are believing Christians, can have prior sins forgiven anytime we sincerely ask God to forgive them.

Then, by extension, anything that is born of meditation is contrary to Biblical Teaching. We can not cultivate inner strength (Chi) alone, such strength is born from accepting God into your heart etc., etc, etc.

Things born of and coming from meditation of God and His word cannot be contrary to the Bible.

Gi (Chi) is an interesting thing to reflect on. I have seen people who seem to enjoy the use of Gi, who are not Christian. I think Gi can only really come from meditation. I do not confine my meditation to concentrating on my Tan Jon while doing breathing exercises; I sometimes pray, sometimes meditate on scripture, sometimes go over techniques in my mind, sometimes try to empty my mind (mostly to allow my mind to react without 'thinking.'). I do not meditate with the intent of gaining goals of eastern philosophy.

It gets even more touchy when you talk about finding enlightenment within. A standard retort is "if you could find enlightenment within Christ would not have been sent to us, the only path to enlightenment is through accepting Jesus Christ."

I agree with you, there should be a difference, bit Christian Theologians says otherwise.

My belief is that enlightenment in the eastern sense, is too difficult to understand, much less attain. Nor is it needed. I can attain salvation only through acceptance of the gift of God, which is his only begotten son, Jesus Christ who shed His blood on the cross, for the forgiveness of our sins.

The above is my belief, and no one else is required to agree with me. Anyone who wishes to disagree with me is free to do so, and say so or simply ignore what I believe.

 

[oftheherd1]

...
The Principles of Buddhism in the 8 Fold Path are simply "Right understanding, right thoughts good happy life..." etc. Confuscianism central principle is WAY too wordily explained (read the Analects some day lol) but can be summed up by simple saying "the Brotherhood of Humanity". So Christianity is focused on Sin, "thou shalt not". Eastern Philosophies are focused on learning your place, hence "Right..."

...

Added to explain that the thought in Confucianism is that right following of the principles makes for peace, tranquility, and happiness and all things good. So if something goes wrong, to bring it to the attention of the authorities and the public, is a confession that one has not been living a proper life in following all the principles. The Koreans tended to out-confuscious the Chinese. Therefore, for a long time, a woman who was raped would almost never reveal it. The shame more being the confession of not-right-living, than the actual suffering of the rape. The same to a greater or lessor degree for other crimes or calamities. Oh, and I have read Confucius and Mencius. Mostly out of curiosity as to what was all the fuss about and to see if there was anything worth learning. I remember thinking some of the things were interesting to think about as being a different philosophy. I honestly don't remember much more. That was a long time ago. I certainly didn't take anything religious from them to heart. I also once started to read the I Ching. That I quit after a few pages, because I had strong feelings that it was a bad thing.

Anyway, just some more of my beliefs. You nor anyone else has to accept them for yourselves, or agree with them in any way.

 

[oftheherd1]

I once had a prospective new student tell me that he couldn't do the bowing because it was too close to idol worship, and he couldn't do mokuso (moment of meditation before and after class) because it was against his religion. I told him "I would never require you to do anything that you thought went against your religion" as I walked him out the door.

I never thought about it, but depending on what you are bowing to, it IS very close to idol worship, especially to someone with a western mind. Don't really see the issue with mokuso though

I think that is the problem; the mind of that student. If he was not told, or could not accept, that bowing to the instructor was a sign of respect like a handshake or salute, or to the dojo was a sign of respect to the art, he did right to say and believe what he did. The same with meditation.

I would wonder how he accepted the bowing that was common in Europe to royalty and nobility, or to certain religious hierarchy? Again, if he felt that was close to idolatry, he did right in saying so.

 

[oftheherd1]

My only point was to show that they were not simply Warriors but Warriors who engaged in Warfare on a level we arguably didn't even see in WWII.

As my original course of study, as I said, was History and Philosophy, when I look at History I do not make moral judgements regarding wars past. I simply look at the tactics and strategies used. If we start making moral judgements we get into all sorts of murky territory. First it starts with the age old cliché "the victor writes the history". Due to this the possibility of propoganada, then the circular arguments of "well yeah Nation A may have done X but Nation B did Y."

Just look at WWII. Yes the Allies were the "good guys" but the Bomber Pilots who fire bombed Dresden and Tokyo lived long enough to see their missions become something we would call a War Crime if it was done today. I am not a fan of those kind of arguments.

Interesting in that we are in today, not WWII. So is there validity in condemning whose pilots? Or is that what you meant by not being a fan of those kind of arguments? As an aside, I understand the scrutiny given fire bombing (I understand those who question it, as I do those who knew it would shorten the war), but have no problem with use of the atomic bomb. Go figure, eh?