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JR 137

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@Chris Parker

I never said removing shoes was part of self defense. Quite the opposite, actually. I said if I were to eliminate a CULTURAL aspect of training, it would be eliminating training barefoot. Then I gave examples of why training with shoes on would outweigh the CULTURAL aspect of training barefoot.

As far as misspelling mokuso twice, I post from an iPhone. It constantly changes things for me, starts new words and sentences, etc. I catch most of them, but some slip through the cracks. Thanks for at least acknowledging I understand the concept of it though, regardless of how I (mis)spelled it and how often.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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I fail to see how it doesn't effect me at all. My system is a modern system of Japan (actually, founded in NYC in 1976 by a Japanese born and raised individual).

Our resident expert stated that our opening and closing of class are basically Shinto rituals. The resident expert attempted to educate me on the meaning behind the name of the system, implying (correctly) it has eastern religious roots.

So if I'm partaking in a Shinto ritual in an organization that was founded on eastern religious principles (as Chris implied), how does it not effect me? Shouldn't I care?

You train in Seido a modern system?
I don't know the rituals of your system. So I frankly can't help you. If there are Shinto rituals within your system then you will have to figure out a way to coexist. I doubt though that Shinto pervades your system like it would the classical systems of Japan. Though, some modern systems founders particularly those founded in the west some times go over board to appear more like what they perceive a Japanese system would be like. I am not saying that Seido is anything like that as I frankly do not know.
 
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Brian R. VanCise

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Brian, I will freely admit that it's possible I have misunderstood your posts. I will go back and reread them and really try to understand where you are coming from. Do you think it's possible that you are not fully understanding the posts of the MANY people in this thread, some of whom do have an understanding of koryu, some of whom have a strong background in philosophy and religion, and some who have knowledge similar in nature to your own and to Chris'?

See, this is where I get a little frustrated. Sure, it's possible I don't get it. But... and this is the part that seems never to be explored. It's possible that Chris doesn't quite get it. It's possible that you, in your zeal to endorse him, also don't quite get it. I think this is a fair possibility, because you guys keep saying things that are generally agreed upon, as though they are the main points of contention. Not just my posts. Several posters here, many of whom are well respected as being sensible, reasonable guys (as opposed to crotchety, like me). :)

No one doubts that Chris is has an encyclopedic knowledge in certain areas. But where facts stray into interpretations and into opinions, or where areas of expertise overlap, things get a little gray. And remember, this became a debate about Shinto and koryu because Chris made it so, way back in post 109. From your perspective, I get it. Chris is sanctioned as the koryu expert on MT and all that. Fine. But what you and Chris seem to be missing is that for many here, this isn't a discussion about whether the act of bowing to a picture is a Shinto ritual. Rather, it's a discussion about whether that is important to actually training in a martial art. Is Christian Karate a koryu art? LOL. No. Of course not. So, then, does the Shinto rituals which persist matter in any meaningful way to the training?

And as a moderator, if you don't see how damaging it is to a discussion when a moderator jumps in and tells everyone in the thread that we need to stand down, that Chris Parker is an absolute authority laying down truth ("truth" is a very telling choice of words), and saying directly that Chris Parker is saying... how did you say it? "exactly what everyone needs to hear but probably doesn't want to acknowledge. I see people trying to work around and that is okay. However, justify it as you want but it still is exactly what it is!" It's so wrong on so many levels, I still just don't quite know how to react. But I do understand better now why Chris is condoned, and am more glad than ever that I asked to step down as a mentor. Truly, if you don't see that, then it is you, my friend, who doesn't get it.

Honestly, Chris chases off new posters and we laugh. "Haha... that guy or gal probably won't be back. Hehe. That's just Chris being Chris."

Chris derails threads by steering discussions into his areas of expertise, crossing frequently from fact to opinion and then lecturing anyone who has the temerity to have a different opinion . "Haha. That's just Chris being Chris. You may not like him or his opinions, but hey, he didn't mess up the facts!"

Consider the above strictly my own opinions. I don't want to imply that others feel the same way.

Zeal Steve really? Chris states a fact and people are upset over it but it is still a truth. However, people can figure out how to deal with it and or rationalize it any way they want in regards to the classical martial arts of Japan.

Steve it is like you are arguing just to argue? Is this the case?
 

Steve

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Zeal Steve really? Chris states a fact and people are upset over it but it is still a truth. However, people can figure out how to deal with it and or rationalize it any way they want in regards to the classical martial arts of Japan.

Steve it is like you are arguing just to argue? Is this the case?
Once again, Brian, if you're still referring to facts, then I really don't think you understand or have carefully read anyone's posts.

I don't even know what to say about the loaded questions above. That's pretty dishonest of you. No, I'm not arguing just to argue, and if you believe that to be true, I really don't think you understand or have carefully read my posts.

And yeah, zeal. Underlining and bolding things imparts a certain... emphasis. Also, some of the words you choose, such as "truth", along with the message, which seems to be, "If you don't agree with Chris Parker and accept everything he says as truth, you just aren't ready to accept it." That kind of blanket endorsement is zeal. If your intent isn't to communicate zeal, you're doing it wrong. If you think that Chris is correct in everything he says, and that his every opinion should be accepted at face value, then I really don't believe you understand or have carefully read Chris Parker's posts.
 

drop bear

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Religious rituals can, and do, change... however, performing a Shinto ritual, including bowing, is performing a Shinto ritual... bowing, by itself, is not one... but a Shinto ritual often does involve bowing. Conflating the two is where many seem to be going wrong here.

Until it isn't. Because religious rituals can change.

Christianity has a history of adopting other cultural rituals and making them Christian. Christmas is a precedent of that.

So there needs to be a different demarcation than it was once a shinto ritual. Or evolved from a shinto ritual.

Especially when shinto may also have adopted that ritual from another religion.
 
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Tames D

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@ Steve: I understand your frustrations with a certain poster. I have/had the same frustrations, so I know where you are coming from. You and I are on the same page for the most part. But I just want to say, as a former Moderator, having been a part of the inner workings in the "back room", I think you are wrong about Brian. There are things that the Mentors and the general population just don't see and understand.
 

Steve

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@ Steve: I understand your frustrations with a certain poster. I have/had the same frustrations, so I know where you are coming from. You and I are on the same page for the most part. But I just want to say, as a former Moderator, having been a part of the inner workings in the "back room", I think you are wrong about Brian. There are things that the Mentors and the general population just don't see and understand.
Given Brian's suggestion that I'm arguing just to argue, I can well imagine the tenor of the discussion. forgive me if I'm skeptical.
 

JR 137

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You train in Seido a modern system? I don't know the rituals of your system. So I frankly can't help you. If there are Shinto rituals within your system then you will have to figure out a way to coexist. I doubt though that Shinto pervades your system like it would the classical systems of Japan. Though, some modern systems founders particularly those founded in the west some times go over board to appear more like what they perceive a Japanese system would be like. I am not saying that Seido is anything like that as I frankly do not know.

Are you asking if Seido is a modern system? If so, IMO my answer is yes it is. The World Seido Karate Organization, aka Seido Juku, aka Seido Karate, was founded in 1976 by Tadashi Nakamura in NYC. Prior to that, Nakamura was the North American head of Kyokushin. Prior to that, he was the chief instructor at Kyokushinkaikan Honbu in Tokyo. I say it's too new and evolved enough to not be put into the older gendai systems. By the older gendai systems of karate, I mean those that were founded/named around the time karate was officially recognized by Japan - Funakoshi's Shotokan, Miyagi's Goju, Uechi Ryu (although Uechi stopped teaching and then resumed later on), etc. I kind of put Kyokushin at the beginning of the modern karate - Oyama heavily reworked a lot of the old kata such as Kanku, Gojushiho (and renamed it Sushiho in Kyokushin), and some others. He added kata such as Tsuki No Kata that came from one of Miyagi's students, which isn't very old. Nakamura made some additional changes in curriculum and methods. But I guess it's truly gendai if the only distinction is koryu or gendai. But that's another topic altogether.

As far as Shinto ritual, Chris Parker responded this way when I stated the opening and closing of class protocol in Seido...

"Yep, well... it's adapted, but it's certainly showing all the hallmarks of Shinto, so... yeah. It is."

Nakamura was born and raised in Japan. He was sent here by Mas Oyama to bring Kyokushin to North America, so it's not like he's someone who doesn't know Japanese culture/traditions/etc. and making things up as he goes to make his organization look Japanese.
 

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Okay...

And, for the record, I've said several times that, while bowing itself may not be a Shinto ritual, I have no problem agreeing that bowing in a particular manner to honor specific people can be one. I've said so multiple times.

Yet you continue to argue...?

I just don't agree with how Chris P. extends that further to suggest that without Shinto, one is left with an empty shell.

For the arts I'm talking about, yes. I've even shown precisely how far this extends, to the very structure and form of physical techniques themselves, as you were unable to follow... I'm not sure how much more information you need at this point.

This all kind of reminds me of the story of how we ended up with $.99 and .95 pricing. We tend to think itstarted out as a a psychology thing, but it was really a practical issue of keeping employees from skimming the till. Does knowing that change the practice? No, but it's interesting.

Er... huh? No, it's not really the same thing... on a number of levels.

So, your position boils down to a couple things.

Not wanting to speak for Brian, but I do want to address your views here a bit...

1: You believe chris' post is historically accurate, and it jives with Wikipedia.

No, Brian believes my posts are accurate because, unlike you, he has some knowledge in this area, and what I'm saying is in line with his education.

2: you believe he is more creidible than others who seem to know what they're talking about, as well. I don't know that juany is less credible than Chris, for example.

Then you simply don't know the subject or area, Steve. Same as with the thread on "Need a new Iaito"... your lack of knowledge in the area, and your lack of ability (or willingness) to discern the levels of differing viewpoints are leading you to argue when you frankly have no place to. This is no slight on Juany, and I'm not saying anything about his art, as I've been specifically addressing the idea of bowing as part of the opening (and closing) ritual in Japanese martial arts... and, in this area, his Wing Chun doesn't have a lot of relevance when it comes to expertise in this field...

3: MT endorses Chris as a mentor, and the moderation staff will back him up when needed.

I'm not about to go into any backroom politics, but that has never been the case that I've seen... in fact, quite the opposite. Your sour grapes, on the other hand, not always being catered to, is not the same thing...

4: if one don't train in a Koryu art, you are suggesting that a person should just accept whatever Chris says as correct, even if it is an opinion or a matter of philosophy.

When it comes to matters of Koryu, Classical Japanese martial arts, and related, yes. Unless you're suggesting that someone who has never trained in BJJ, grappling in any form, MMA, or anything similar shouldn't listen to you, based on your knowledge and experience in BJJ, as you're likely to be ill-informed?

Seriously, Steve, if my posts are based in my decades now of training in Japanese arts, my decades of study and research, and they match the views and understanding of other practitioners of similar things, and the knowledge of others who are educated in a similar area, then maybe, just maybe, you take on board that yes, I do know what I'm talking about... and your constant questioning of my credibility, based on absolutely nothing other than a chip on your shoulder, is really getting old.

As I said before, this is genuinely disappointing.

Then you'll just have to get over it.

I don't disagree with what you say at all. But Chris' statement seems to go beyond that. He subtly disrespects Christian Communion as "having a drink and a bite to eat." Then he makes one of his leaps to I guess, try and confound people. "... yet a specifically Shinto ritual, taking place in a building whose purpose is for the study of religious ways and methods, is not necessarily one ..." 'because we say it is not.' In effect, trying again to say any bow or study of a martial art is from Shinto. Yet he recently has already said a bow is used in Shinto, but is not Shinto.

For one thing, there was no "subtle disrespect", anymore than your (and others') constant dismissal of the Shinto aspect as "just bowing"... what I was saying was that, if you're going to reduce what is genuinely a Shinto (religious) ritual to a single physical expression or component, that could be done with Christian ones as well... and to point out that those physical actions, while intrinsic to the ritual itself, they do not make the ritual by themselves... anymore than simply having a drink and a bite to eat is the same as taking communion.

Next, no, at no point have I said that any bow or study of a martial art is from Shinto... for crying out loud, my very first post in this thread stated explicitly that I was dealing specifically with the bow associated with the opening ceremony of a Japanese martial art... what I have said, in very simple terms, is that the religious ritual engaged in at the beginning and end of many Japanese art classes is a religious ritual, whether addressed as such or not... and that anyone who was concerned about being made to take part in religious actions outside of their own faith should be aware of it.

Seriously, that's it.

Can't have it both ways of course.

I'm not having it both ways. You've all managed to ignore what I've said, instead applying your own assumptions based on a lack of understanding. I recommend going back over my posts and confirming this.

Only if by "just shells" you mean they are just the physical techniques without the Shinto. In that case, I'm both entirely in agreement and entirely okay with that result. To me, the art is the physical techniques (and, in some cases, the ethical philosophy). That doesn't require the religion, so removing the religion doesn't take anything away that is of importance to me.

No, that's not what I mean. I mean that much of the art is dependent upon the religious underpinnings (when dealing with Classical Japanese arts, at the least... and to a degree with modern ones as well, particularly those based in the older forms).

Without the religious underpinnings, many arts lose their historical values (not value... a bit different), their tactical thinking and methodology, the structure of their techniques and teachings, their naming conventions and terminology, the structure of the organisation and far more. If you can imagine what a martial art is like without all that, then you can understand what I mean when I say it's "just a shell".

You said you didn't have the time to check all the listings. I didn't have time to check the list either, nor the inclination frankly. But I noticed that Dai Ito-ryu Akijujutsu was the third one listed. Even their link shows it as founded after the Meiji period. That one caught my eye since I am a Hapkido practitioner.

The link shows Dai Ito-ryu Akijujutsu as being founded in 1890. I spot checked a couple more and also found post Meiji foundings.

The questions of Daito Ryu's origins and foundings, really aren't that relevant here... unless you're going to say that post Meiji arts don't have such religious underpinnings...?

I just don't see how Chris and now you, can bring all eastern martial arts under the umbrella of Shinto. It doesn't work that I can see. But if you are happy in that belief, that doesn't bother me either.

For crying out loud, no, that's not what I've said. I have simply said that the Shinto ritual found in many, indeed most Japanese martial arts is a Shinto ritual... seriously, you're all missing what's being said in favour of your assumptions. Go back and read.

Oh, probably best for another thread, but how can a martial art, stripped of Shinto, be just a shell? Does Shinto promote physical fighting and give enough ways to do it that without Shinto there is no way of fighting left?

EDIT: I see gpseymore already asked my last question.

It depends on the art, but an art that already has such underpinnings is entirely informed by them... how could it not be just a shell?

AH! Now I think I understand your point, Chris. This sentence seems clearer to me than your longer posts. I would agree that there's a lot of influence from Shinto. That aligns with what I said in a post earlier today. However, you can remove the actual religiousness without removing the philosophy that's left behind. Once can exhibit "Christian charity" without ever being a Christian. It's just part of the philosophical model behind the religion.

No, that's not what I was saying... you need to get out of the idea of singular religious influences/expressions... the Shinto aspects are one (important) influence on the Japanese arts, they are a very real part of the arts that they are a part of... you can't just remove the religious aspects of religious arts and not remove the whole thing. I'd also argue that the religious philosophy is the whole point of the religious expression... and that no, you can't exhibit "Christian charity" if you're not a Christian... it may be seen as similar by a Christian, but frankly, no, it's not the same thing... on a number of levels. It's intent is different... as is it's source ideology... regardless of how similar the behaviour might be seen to be.

Actually, he explicitly said it would be suprisingly true of even NGA, which is decidedly Gendai Budo (founded in the early 1940's).

Yep. And other Gendai arts, for the record...it's just far more explicit in the older ones (Koryu)...

This is where we have a disagreement. It was originally (and still is, among those who observe Shinto) exactly what you say here. However, for those who were taught to bow to the training space (or even the shrine area) as a show of respect and a moment to clear their mind, it has never been about invoking the kami. In my current space(s), I don't even have a facsimile of a shrine (in my prior space, I only had the scrolls). I bow, as I always have, to the training space.

I get the view, really, I do... but, regardless of anything else, bowing to the space (directed towards the shomen... and, if you don't, then it hasn't been transmitted properly) is bowing to the kami... yes, there's the idea of clearing your mind, preparing you for the training, leaving the outside world behind... but, at it's heart, it's really about announcing yourself to the spirits of the dojo... whether there is a physical kamidana, shomen scroll, or anything else or not.

Brian, I will freely admit that it's possible I have misunderstood your posts. I will go back and reread them and really try to understand where you are coming from. Do you think it's possible that you are not fully understanding the posts of the MANY people in this thread, some of whom do have an understanding of koryu, some of whom have a strong background in philosophy and religion, and some who have knowledge similar in nature to your own and to Chris'?

While I agree that misunderstanding can go both ways, can you identify anyone in the thread who has an understanding of these old arts, and has disagreed with my, and Brian's, comments?

See, this is where I get a little frustrated. Sure, it's possible I don't get it. But... and this is the part that seems never to be explored. It's possible that Chris doesn't quite get it. It's possible that you, in your zeal to endorse him, also don't quite get it. I think this is a fair possibility, because you guys keep saying things that are generally agreed upon, as though they are the main points of contention. Not just my posts. Several posters here, many of whom are well respected as being sensible, reasonable guys (as opposed to crotchety, like me). :)

Examples of these agreed upon things that are said as if points of contention?

No one doubts that Chris is has an encyclopedic knowledge in certain areas. But where facts stray into interpretations and into opinions, or where areas of expertise overlap, things get a little gray.

Which is why I don't get into opinions in these areas.

And remember, this became a debate about Shinto and koryu because Chris made it so, way back in post 109.

Not quite, no... I was seeing the posts of many members who couldn't come to an understanding of why some may see the bowing as a religious act, and therefore couldn't understand why some were objecting to it... or why someone like Paul was saying that he would show someone out if they were concerned about such things. So I was offering some insight into exactly what the reasons were... which seems to have been misunderstood and misinterpreted in the main.

From your perspective, I get it. Chris is sanctioned as the koryu expert on MT and all that. Fine.

No, I'm really not.

But what you and Chris seem to be missing is that for many here, this isn't a discussion about whether the act of bowing to a picture is a Shinto ritual. Rather, it's a discussion about whether that is important to actually training in a martial art. Is Christian Karate a koryu art? LOL. No. Of course not. So, then, does the Shinto rituals which persist matter in any meaningful way to the training?

Huh? No, that's not the discussion... again, my points have been specific... and stated in my very first post here (that I wasn't dealing with the Christianity aspects, that I wasn't dealing with karate, and so on, that you're seeming to see in my words)... instead, my point is about the religious aspects that are already present in various arts, most in particular the Japanese ones, when it comes to customs such as bowing to the kamidana at the beginning of the class.

Really, go back and re-read it again.

And as a moderator, if you don't see how damaging it is to a discussion when a moderator jumps in and tells everyone in the thread that we need to stand down, that Chris Parker is an absolute authority laying down truth ("truth" is a very telling choice of words), and saying directly that Chris Parker is saying... how did you say it? "exactly what everyone needs to hear but probably doesn't want to acknowledge. I see people trying to work around and that is okay. However, justify it as you want but it still is exactly what it is!" It's so wrong on so many levels, I still just don't quite know how to react. But I do understand better now why Chris is condoned, and am more glad than ever that I asked to step down as a mentor. Truly, if you don't see that, then it is you, my friend, who doesn't get it.

Of course, it's more constructive if you continue to argue the same damn point over and over again, ignoring everything that you get told, until a thread gets locked, yeah?

Honestly, Chris chases off new posters and we laugh. "Haha... that guy or gal probably won't be back. Hehe. That's just Chris being Chris."

Chris derails threads by steering discussions into his areas of expertise, crossing frequently from fact to opinion and then lecturing anyone who has the temerity to have a different opinion . "Haha. That's just Chris being Chris. You may not like him or his opinions, but hey, he didn't mess up the facts!"

I rarely offer opinion, Steve. Most of the time I do, it's to do with my personal feelings on a particular technique/system/instructor, and there I point out what my opinion is, and often why their approach is in contrast to my own... that you read opinions into my comments when I'm dealing with facts is not my failing.

Consider the above strictly my own opinions. I don't want to imply that others feel the same way.

Sure.

I did say Karate and actually made the point earlier that karate was largely Okinawan in origin. That said I mentioned that because, I believe (and if wrong mae culpa) Chris had referred to Karate and Shinto in the same breath as well.

Yeah, no... not something I'd said. Only when Steve insisted that that was what I was talking about did I say it could cross over into karate, but was explicit in saying that no, I was not talking about karate in particular or specifically... in fact, I went out of my way to say that that is not what I was saying. A couple of times, in fact.

With all that said the Aikido I studied I think directly relates to this conversation. While Ueshiba Sensei was a member of the neo-Shinto Omotokyo sect (which has a lot of distinct connections to Buddhism) and that his belief in it's core concept of harmony could not be made to reconcile with Daito-ryu, Gozo Shioda Sensei (the founder of the Yoshinkan Aikido I studied) explicitly removed the religious elements of Aikido while maintaining the generic "spiritual" aspects. As a matter of fact I once read someone half jokingly refer to those of us who practice Yoshinkan Aikido as "Evil Aikidoka."

We still bowed, meditated etc but these traditions are not unique to Shinto and the idea of harmony, which is where the idea of "doing no harm" to someone trying to hurt you, was gone.

Now maybe this has colored my opinion on the issue but I look to this and see the evolution above as an example of how faith can flow into and then out of a martial art.

Yeah... the religious aspects simply aren't removed, even in Yoshinkan Aikido... the Omoto-kyo aspects and influence, to a great degree, yes... but not the other, underlying aspects. It was simply de-emphasised. But, more importantly, you really, really can't look at these ideas and aspects with a Western sensibility... it'll never make sense that way.

This largely lines up with my thought as well. You can have origins in a faith or philosophy BUT have the "religiousness" or practiced removed.

Sure. But what I'm saying is that it is not removed. Because, well, it isn't. It is, however, largely de-emphasised, or less explicitly expressed... but the practice is still there.

I would still argue that Japan is diverse however in what those influences are however. I would never deny that Shinto may lie at the majority of TJMAs btw, I would only argue its not the ONLY one.

And I never said it was the only one... just that it is the heart of many of the rituals found in a dojo... I've also pointed out the Buddhist influences, even in the very building used, from the beginning.

The last part isn't actually the point I am trying to make. The point I am trying to make is that it is a melange of influences that contributed to many martial arts. Here is a good article that calls out the my of "zen" origins BUT notes that Daoist, Shinto, Buddhist and Confucian influences were so interwoven that it is essentially impossible to say what, if any religion/philosophy had a singular influence.

Religion and Spiritual Development: Japan (Martial Arts)

I like that article... but really, it's just saying many of the same things I've been stating... such as the problems in seeing Japanese religious concepts from a Western perspective... the cross-over in all areas of Japanese life... as well as much of the article not having much to do with anything other than the development and recent history of martial arts methodologies in Japan, separate from the religious concepts we're discussing here.

I fail to see how it doesn't effect me at all. My system is a modern system of Japan (actually, founded in NYC in 1976 by a Japanese born and raised individual).

Our resident expert stated that our opening and closing of class are basically Shinto rituals. The resident expert attempted to educate me on the meaning behind the name of the system, implying (correctly) it has eastern religious roots.

So if I'm partaking in a Shinto ritual in an organization that was founded on eastern religious principles (as Chris implied), how does it not effect me? Shouldn't I care?

It affects you if it affects you, really. If you are a practicing Christian, and of the belief that you cannot partake in any other religious activities, then it should certainly affect you... if you aren't, or you are less concerned about such separation, and can happily compartmentalise these ideas, then you're fine. All I've been saying is that, if such concerns are yours, it may be helpful to know what you're actually doing.

@Chris Parker

I never said removing shoes was part of self defense. Quite the opposite, actually. I said if I were to eliminate a CULTURAL aspect of training, it would be eliminating training barefoot. Then I gave examples of why training with shoes on would outweigh the CULTURAL aspect of training barefoot.

Yeah... and I was saying "you think these arts are about self defence?"

As far as misspelling mokuso twice, I post from an iPhone. It constantly changes things for me, starts new words and sentences, etc. I catch most of them, but some slip through the cracks. Thanks for at least acknowledging I understand the concept of it though, regardless of how I (mis)spelled it and how often.

Okay, thanks for that. Perfectly understandable.

Until it isn't. Because religious rituals can change.

Except it has never stopped being one... so no, it's not "until it isn't", as it still is.

Christianity has a history of adopting other cultural rituals and making them Christian. Christmas is a precedent of that.

So?

So there needs to be a different demarcation than it was once a shinto ritual. Or evolved from a shinto ritual.

It is a Shinto ritual. It has not evolved from one... it is not something that "once was a Shinto ritual", it is a Shinto ritual. That's the point.

Especially when shinto may also have adopted that ritual from another religion.

What? Do you even know what you're talking about?
 

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No, that's not what I mean. I mean that much of the art is dependent upon the religious underpinnings (when dealing with Classical Japanese arts, at the least... and to a degree with modern ones as well, particularly those based in the older forms).

Without the religious underpinnings, many arts lose their historical values (not value... a bit different), their tactical thinking and methodology, the structure of their techniques and teachings, their naming conventions and terminology, the structure of the organisation and far more. If you can imagine what a martial art is like without all that, then you can understand what I mean when I say it's "just a shell".
I think, again, we're dealing with a difference in what "religious underpinnings means". If you mean the origin, then sure. If you mean the actual religious practice (as in understanding Shinto to understand an art, assuming said art has significant Shinto influence), then I'll disagree. The strategy may be influenced by Shinto, but the strategy can be understood without Shinto.

Of course, then we come to the issue of evolution within an art. If the strategy and tactics have evolved from their origin (without that evolution being driven by Shinto philosophy), then would Shinto even necessarily be useful in helping understand the current strategy (as opposed to understanding the historical progression)? I'd say there's a chance that focusing on understanding Shinto could drag the strategic/tactical understanding back toward its origins, which would undo that evolution, removing elements that better fit the current usage.

Mind you, if we're talking about understanding how an art got to where it is, there's little argument that understanding Shinto would enhance that pursuit. Perhaps this is part of our difference on this? You have a koryu focus, so I would think the background of an art is more important to you, to the way you study it.
 

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I think, again, we're dealing with a difference in what "religious underpinnings means". If you mean the origin, then sure. If you mean the actual religious practice (as in understanding Shinto to understand an art, assuming said art has significant Shinto influence), then I'll disagree. The strategy may be influenced by Shinto, but the strategy can be understood without Shinto.

Of course, then we come to the issue of evolution within an art. If the strategy and tactics have evolved from their origin (without that evolution being driven by Shinto philosophy), then would Shinto even necessarily be useful in helping understand the current strategy (as opposed to understanding the historical progression)? I'd say there's a chance that focusing on understanding Shinto could drag the strategic/tactical understanding back toward its origins, which would undo that evolution, removing elements that better fit the current usage.

Mind you, if we're talking about understanding how an art got to where it is, there's little argument that understanding Shinto would enhance that pursuit. Perhaps this is part of our difference on this? You have a koryu focus, so I would think the background of an art is more important to you, to the way you study it.
Chris is not at all interested in having a conversation or understanding your perspective, The sooner you understand that from his perspective, he is the professor and you are the student, the more his posts make sense, Chris doesn't discuss things. He lectures. He imparts truth, and if you disagree, he presumes you must not understand him.

I predict Brian will let us all know that Chris' perspective is the endorsed MT perspective shortly.
 

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Okay...



Yet you continue to argue...?



For the arts I'm talking about, yes. I've even shown precisely how far this extends, to the very structure and form of physical techniques themselves, as you were unable to follow... I'm not sure how much more information you need at this point.



Er... huh? No, it's not really the same thing... on a number of levels.



Not wanting to speak for Brian, but I do want to address your views here a bit...



No, Brian believes my posts are accurate because, unlike you, he has some knowledge in this area, and what I'm saying is in line with his education.



Then you simply don't know the subject or area, Steve. Same as with the thread on "Need a new Iaito"... your lack of knowledge in the area, and your lack of ability (or willingness) to discern the levels of differing viewpoints are leading you to argue when you frankly have no place to. This is no slight on Juany, and I'm not saying anything about his art, as I've been specifically addressing the idea of bowing as part of the opening (and closing) ritual in Japanese martial arts... and, in this area, his Wing Chun doesn't have a lot of relevance when it comes to expertise in this field...



I'm not about to go into any backroom politics, but that has never been the case that I've seen... in fact, quite the opposite. Your sour grapes, on the other hand, not always being catered to, is not the same thing...



When it comes to matters of Koryu, Classical Japanese martial arts, and related, yes. Unless you're suggesting that someone who has never trained in BJJ, grappling in any form, MMA, or anything similar shouldn't listen to you, based on your knowledge and experience in BJJ, as you're likely to be ill-informed?

Seriously, Steve, if my posts are based in my decades now of training in Japanese arts, my decades of study and research, and they match the views and understanding of other practitioners of similar things, and the knowledge of others who are educated in a similar area, then maybe, just maybe, you take on board that yes, I do know what I'm talking about... and your constant questioning of my credibility, based on absolutely nothing other than a chip on your shoulder, is really getting old.



Then you'll just have to get over it.



For one thing, there was no "subtle disrespect", anymore than your (and others') constant dismissal of the Shinto aspect as "just bowing"... what I was saying was that, if you're going to reduce what is genuinely a Shinto (religious) ritual to a single physical expression or component, that could be done with Christian ones as well... and to point out that those physical actions, while intrinsic to the ritual itself, they do not make the ritual by themselves... anymore than simply having a drink and a bite to eat is the same as taking communion.

Next, no, at no point have I said that any bow or study of a martial art is from Shinto... for crying out loud, my very first post in this thread stated explicitly that I was dealing specifically with the bow associated with the opening ceremony of a Japanese martial art... what I have said, in very simple terms, is that the religious ritual engaged in at the beginning and end of many Japanese art classes is a religious ritual, whether addressed as such or not... and that anyone who was concerned about being made to take part in religious actions outside of their own faith should be aware of it.

Seriously, that's it.



I'm not having it both ways. You've all managed to ignore what I've said, instead applying your own assumptions based on a lack of understanding. I recommend going back over my posts and confirming this.



No, that's not what I mean. I mean that much of the art is dependent upon the religious underpinnings (when dealing with Classical Japanese arts, at the least... and to a degree with modern ones as well, particularly those based in the older forms).

Without the religious underpinnings, many arts lose their historical values (not value... a bit different), their tactical thinking and methodology, the structure of their techniques and teachings, their naming conventions and terminology, the structure of the organisation and far more. If you can imagine what a martial art is like without all that, then you can understand what I mean when I say it's "just a shell".



The questions of Daito Ryu's origins and foundings, really aren't that relevant here... unless you're going to say that post Meiji arts don't have such religious underpinnings...?



For crying out loud, no, that's not what I've said. I have simply said that the Shinto ritual found in many, indeed most Japanese martial arts is a Shinto ritual... seriously, you're all missing what's being said in favour of your assumptions. Go back and read.



It depends on the art, but an art that already has such underpinnings is entirely informed by them... how could it not be just a shell?



No, that's not what I was saying... you need to get out of the idea of singular religious influences/expressions... the Shinto aspects are one (important) influence on the Japanese arts, they are a very real part of the arts that they are a part of... you can't just remove the religious aspects of religious arts and not remove the whole thing. I'd also argue that the religious philosophy is the whole point of the religious expression... and that no, you can't exhibit "Christian charity" if you're not a Christian... it may be seen as similar by a Christian, but frankly, no, it's not the same thing... on a number of levels. It's intent is different... as is it's source ideology... regardless of how similar the behaviour might be seen to be.



Yep. And other Gendai arts, for the record...it's just far more explicit in the older ones (Koryu)...



I get the view, really, I do... but, regardless of anything else, bowing to the space (directed towards the shomen... and, if you don't, then it hasn't been transmitted properly) is bowing to the kami... yes, there's the idea of clearing your mind, preparing you for the training, leaving the outside world behind... but, at it's heart, it's really about announcing yourself to the spirits of the dojo... whether there is a physical kamidana, shomen scroll, or anything else or not.



While I agree that misunderstanding can go both ways, can you identify anyone in the thread who has an understanding of these old arts, and has disagreed with my, and Brian's, comments?



Examples of these agreed upon things that are said as if points of contention?



Which is why I don't get into opinions in these areas.



Not quite, no... I was seeing the posts of many members who couldn't come to an understanding of why some may see the bowing as a religious act, and therefore couldn't understand why some were objecting to it... or why someone like Paul was saying that he would show someone out if they were concerned about such things. So I was offering some insight into exactly what the reasons were... which seems to have been misunderstood and misinterpreted in the main.



No, I'm really not.



Huh? No, that's not the discussion... again, my points have been specific... and stated in my very first post here (that I wasn't dealing with the Christianity aspects, that I wasn't dealing with karate, and so on, that you're seeming to see in my words)... instead, my point is about the religious aspects that are already present in various arts, most in particular the Japanese ones, when it comes to customs such as bowing to the kamidana at the beginning of the class.

Really, go back and re-read it again.



Of course, it's more constructive if you continue to argue the same damn point over and over again, ignoring everything that you get told, until a thread gets locked, yeah?



I rarely offer opinion, Steve. Most of the time I do, it's to do with my personal feelings on a particular technique/system/instructor, and there I point out what my opinion is, and often why their approach is in contrast to my own... that you read opinions into my comments when I'm dealing with facts is not my failing.



Sure.



Yeah, no... not something I'd said. Only when Steve insisted that that was what I was talking about did I say it could cross over into karate, but was explicit in saying that no, I was not talking about karate in particular or specifically... in fact, I went out of my way to say that that is not what I was saying. A couple of times, in fact.



Yeah... the religious aspects simply aren't removed, even in Yoshinkan Aikido... the Omoto-kyo aspects and influence, to a great degree, yes... but not the other, underlying aspects. It was simply de-emphasised. But, more importantly, you really, really can't look at these ideas and aspects with a Western sensibility... it'll never make sense that way.



Sure. But what I'm saying is that it is not removed. Because, well, it isn't. It is, however, largely de-emphasised, or less explicitly expressed... but the practice is still there.



And I never said it was the only one... just that it is the heart of many of the rituals found in a dojo... I've also pointed out the Buddhist influences, even in the very building used, from the beginning.



I like that article... but really, it's just saying many of the same things I've been stating... such as the problems in seeing Japanese religious concepts from a Western perspective... the cross-over in all areas of Japanese life... as well as much of the article not having much to do with anything other than the development and recent history of martial arts methodologies in Japan, separate from the religious concepts we're discussing here.



It affects you if it affects you, really. If you are a practicing Christian, and of the belief that you cannot partake in any other religious activities, then it should certainly affect you... if you aren't, or you are less concerned about such separation, and can happily compartmentalise these ideas, then you're fine. All I've been saying is that, if such concerns are yours, it may be helpful to know what you're actually doing.



Yeah... and I was saying "you think these arts are about self defence?"



Okay, thanks for that. Perfectly understandable.



Except it has never stopped being one... so no, it's not "until it isn't", as it still is.



So?



It is a Shinto ritual. It has not evolved from one... it is not something that "once was a Shinto ritual", it is a Shinto ritual. That's the point.



What? Do you even know what you're talking about?
Chris, it's a shame in that iaido thread that you never took the time to understand what I repeatedly said in that thread. It is a good example of how you approach threads, and epitomizes how just about every time you post, you either derail the thread so that it eventually gets locked or you drive a new poster away.
 

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