Unintended Consequences

[Bill Mattocks]

St. Petersburg police: Man threw sucker punch after being told to stop catcalling women

St. Petersburg police: Man threw sucker punch after being told to stop catcalling women

Here's the snapshot.

Drunken Saint Patrick's Day festivities. One man (the person arrested, allegedly an MMA fighter) is suspected of having sucker-punched a man who confronted him about catcalling females in the area. The man who was hit fell backwards and hit his head on concrete. He is still in critical condition. Even if he survives, he is likely to have suffered severe and permanent brain injuries.

Lots of things to talk about here.

First, catcalling women during drunken public revelry. It may have been somewhat socially acceptable in years gone by, but those days are over. Grow up. It's not OK. Not even during a public celebration commonly associated with drunkenness.

Second, the man who asked the alleged puncher to stop doing it was risking more than he knew. While I applaud him standing up for public decency, we see the results here; it could have even been worse. Perhaps it's better to just find or call a cop and let them deal with it.

Third, unintended consequences... I've mentioned this before. Every fight has the potential to be a life-and-death struggle. I've even mentioned things like people slipping and falling while fighting, hitting their heads, being seriously injured or killed. This very thing. In this case, the man who was injured wasn't even fighting. He was protesting the suspect's alleged catcalling nonviolently.

Fourth, and for my martial arts peeps:

"Because Allen is an experienced fighter, the courts may treat him differently from an average person in a similar situation would be treated, according to legal experts."

Some of the more...aggressive members of MT who claim to be ready to go to fists for just about any slight or insult, might want to take note of this. How would you like to spend the rest of your life in prison for sucker-punching someone who annoyed you in public? Sound smart? Sound like a good idea? Maybe suck it up, buttercup. Grow up and learn to behave like a human being. Don't catcall women, and walk away if confronted. This isn't what martial arts self-defense was intended for.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Too many white knights. Call the cops, or move along. We don't know what was said.

 

[Tez3]

The man who was hit fell backwards and hit his head on concrete. He is still in critical condition. Even if he survives, he is likely to have suffered severe and permanent brain injuries.

This sadly is more common than many people think. It happens in my local town a couple of years ago and this is a place where we haven't had a murder for over twenty years. A personal disagreement, a punch, KO and wham straight onto the pavement hitting the head. I've seen a lot of KOs in competitive fights and seen fighters drop like a stone but they don't hit their heads on concrete or paving stones.
While if you are attacked you can't afford to think that by defending yourself this could happen, you can and absolutely should think about it before attacking someone for something that is basically pants, as Bill says walk away.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This sadly is more common than many people think. It happens in my local town a couple of years ago and this is a place where we haven't had a murder for over twenty years. A personal disagreement, a punch, KO and wham straight onto the pavement hitting the head. I've seen a lot of KOs in competitive fights and seen fighters drop like a stone but they don't hit their heads on concrete or paving stones.
While if you are attacked you can't afford to think that by defending yourself this could happen, you can and absolutely should think about it before attacking someone for something that is basically pants, as Bill says walk away.

Absolutely. If you're attacked, all bets are off. Leave if you can, fight if you must. But be aware that whether you're right or wrong to be fighting, any fight can be a life-and-death struggle whether one thinks it is or not. Stuff happens. People fall down, hit their heads, and die.

 

[jobo]

St. Petersburg police: Man threw sucker punch after being told to stop catcalling women

St. Petersburg police: Man threw sucker punch after being told to stop catcalling women

Here's the snapshot.

Drunken Saint Patrick's Day festivities. One man (the person arrested, allegedly an MMA fighter) is suspected of having sucker-punched a man who confronted him about catcalling females in the area. The man who was hit fell backwards and hit his head on concrete. He is still in critical condition. Even if he survives, he is likely to have suffered severe and permanent brain injuries.

Lots of things to talk about here.

First, catcalling women during drunken public revelry. It may have been somewhat socially acceptable in years gone by, but those days are over. Grow up. It's not OK. Not even during a public celebration commonly associated with drunkenness.

Second, the man who asked the alleged puncher to stop doing it was risking more than he knew. While I applaud him standing up for public decency, we see the results here; it could have even been worse. Perhaps it's better to just find or call a cop and let them deal with it.

Third, unintended consequences... I've mentioned this before. Every fight has the potential to be a life-and-death struggle. I've even mentioned things like people slipping and falling while fighting, hitting their heads, being seriously injured or killed. This very thing. In this case, the man who was injured wasn't even fighting. He was protesting the suspect's alleged catcalling nonviolently.

Fourth, and for my martial arts peeps:

"Because Allen is an experienced fighter, the courts may treat him differently from an average person in a similar situation would be treated, according to legal experts."

Some of the more...aggressive members of MT who claim to be ready to go to fists for just about any slight or insult, might want to take note of this. How would you like to spend the rest of your life in prison for sucker-punching someone who annoyed you in public? Sound smart? Sound like a good idea? Maybe suck it up, buttercup. Grow up and learn to behave like a human being. Don't catcall women, and walk away if confronted. This isn't what martial arts self-defense was intended for.

my intial reaction was to wonder why they they were celebrating St Patricks day in Russia, then I realised the usa pinch all their place names from some where else.

second , considering all the punches thrown in America in a week, that its news worthy makes it a very rare out come

third, it should indeed be a consideration, so either ignore the drunken ramblings, or if you really can't let it go, provoke them into having first swing or, do something that causes acute pain that doesn't involve punching them in the head. Like kicking them in the shins or stamping on their toe
I once set fire to someone's beard, in similar circumstances, then put the fire out by throwing his drink over him, seemed to make the point

 

[CB Jones]

This sadly is more common than many people think. It happens in my local town a couple of years ago and this is a place where we haven't had a murder for over twenty years. A personal disagreement, a punch, KO and wham straight onto the pavement hitting the head. I've seen a lot of KOs in competitive fights and seen fighters drop like a stone but they don't hit their heads on concrete or paving stones.
While if you are attacked you can't afford to think that by defending yourself this could happen, you can and absolutely should think about it before attacking someone for something that is basically pants, as Bill says walk away.

In college, a local guy got into a argument with a frat guy at a bar we hung out.

All the frat guy did was step on the local guys foot and shove him. Local guy hit the back of his head on the concrete floor and boom.....permanent brain damage.

Never heard the results of the criminal charges on the frat guy.


From what I gathered both dudes were supposedly good guys....just a stupid drunken argument gone too far.

 

[Flying Crane]

In college, a local guy got into a argument with a frat guy at a bar we hung out.

All the frat guy did was step on the local guys foot and shove him. Local guy hit the back of his head on the concrete floor and boom.....permanent brain damage.

Never heard the results of the criminal charges on the frat guy.


From what I gathered both dudes were supposedly good guys....just a stupid drunken argument gone too far.

What a nightmare. I would hate to find myself in the middle of that situation.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

From what I gathered both dudes were supposedly good guys....just a stupid drunken argument gone too far.

As a matter of fact...

College student suffers life-altering brain injuries in attack

"Allen is a student of Jiu Jitsu and trains at a studio in Largo. His instructor cannot believe what he’s hearing.

“I could not see Zack ever doing something like this. He’s been training with me since he’s 15. He’s a family guy,” said Rodrigo Greeno.

“I’m shocked that this situation happened” said Greeno, who said the form of martial arts he teaches does not involve punches. “We teach Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which is take-downs,” he said."​

I have no trouble believing the suspected sucker-puncher is normally a good guy. Alcohol lowers inhibitions. Kids make mistakes, and 23 is a kid in my book.

The problem is this:

"Neal remains at Bayfront Health in critical condition and will require a long-term recovery. He may have life-altering brain injuries."​

Some consequences are permanent. Can't be undone.

Some time ago, I read one of those Facebook things that circulate around from time to time. It said words to the effect of this:

"Throw a china bowl to the ground. It is broken. Now apologize to it. Is it fixed? No? Sometimes that's what happens; we say something or we do something to someone and the damage is permanent."​

 

[Buka]

Case going on here on Maui right now. One punch-guy fell and hit his head-died a couple days later.

I don't think people realize how often this happens. So many ruined lives.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Second, the man who asked the alleged puncher to stop doing it was risking more than he knew. While I applaud him standing up for public decency, we see the results here; it could have even been worse. Perhaps it's better to just find or call a cop and let them deal with it.

I always make the assumption that words may not be enough. I also try to tell people to stop, in a way that doesn't put me at more risk. Telling someone to stop catcalling as if he was your friend does not carry the same presentation as someone is doing it from the perspective of "I'm right and you're wrong." What it said and how it's delivered can mean the difference between getting attack and the guy stopping or ignoring you.

This very thing. In this case, the man who was injured wasn't even fighting. He was protesting the suspect's alleged catcalling nonviolently.

Sucker punches are always tricky. If it lands then the person isn't going to have much say on how they fall. I know from personal experience, that when a body falls like a tree, the head will likely the ground. In my case I was in a gym going to the dressing room, I stumbled and fell like a tree. I ended up with a concussion, vomit, periods of blackouts, and expensive stay at the hospital.

"Because Allen is an experienced fighter, the courts may treat him differently from an average person in a similar situation would be treated, according to legal experts."

I don't think they will treat him any different. Kids and teens have been known to kill people with sucker punches. Between being a fighter and the sucker punch, the sucker punch will probably have more damage. The experienced fighter part will probably work against him when it comes to the Jury. The phrase "Martial Artist" doesn't carry the same image of danger or brutality as does "MMA fighter." when it comes to the public. I don't now many MMA guys who have conversations where they are trying to defend MMA as being effective. The public in general has this same perception. The other problem is MMA also has the reputation of being able to "submit people." This creates the assumption that he has the ability and experience to use a lesser force vs full on sucker punch. The sucker punch plus MMA doesn't paint a pretty picture.

Some of the more...aggressive members of MT who claim to be ready to go to fists for just about any slight or insult, might want to take note of this. How would you like to spend the rest of your life in prison for sucker-punching someone who annoyed you in public? Sound smart? Sound like a good idea? Maybe suck it up, buttercup. Grow up and learn to behave like a human being. Don't catcall women, and walk away if confronted. This isn't what martial arts self-defense was intended for.

Agree completely with this. The "victory" isn't worth the punishment.

 

[JowGaWolf]

provoke them into having first swing or, do something that causes acute pain that doesn't involve punching them in the head. Like kicking them in the shins or stamping on their toe
I once set fire to someone's beard, in similar circumstances, then put the fire out by throwing his drink over him, seemed to make the point

 

[Headhunter]

Quite honestly there were was no reason for the other guy to say anything. Now of course catcalling anyone not just women is wrong totally wrong and sleazy /but/ it's also not something that needs anyone to step in about. Sure it's pretty stupid but no ones getting hurt there's no physical threat so why bother stepping in was it worth what happened to him happening over something as dumb as that

 

[CB Jones]

When my son was 6 or 7 he was fighting in a tournament and he got his legs swept out from under him and he hit the back of his head on the floor (had head gear on).

Medical staff medically DQ'd him cause they thought he might have had a slight concussion.

Later, someone asked him why he wasn't competing anymore that day.

His answer.....I got a conclusion.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

This whole thing can be summed up in 3 simple words: "People Are Stupid", so stupid in fact that I'm amazed half of them can even dress themselves in the morning. The fact that the guy in the OP that threw the punch was an experienced fighter makes it even worse. Someone who trains in Martial Arts should know better than to throw punches around on people who aren't trained to deal with them.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You really have to feel for the victim and his family in this case.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You really have to feel for the victim and his family in this case.

I agree. And there are no winners here, only losers. Everybody loses. The injured man, his family, the community, even the suspect, who has basically thrown a major portion of his life away. Even if the courts are lenient with him, if he is at heart a decent person, he will have to live with what he has done all his life. His family will live with the shame. Even his training facility and friends from there. There's no coming back from something like this. All because of something stupid done in a moment of drunken anger (allegedly).

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

A question to ask is did his training lead him to this kind of reckless behavior? I am curious how the courts will see this.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

A question to ask is did his training lead him to this kind of reckless behavior? I am curious how the courts will see this.

I imagine they will say that as a trained Martial Artist and ring-fighter, he should be able to control himself outside the ring, much the same as they would for someone in the police or armed forces would. These guys are trained to fight, but at the same time they should be able to restrain themselves when dealing with civilians.

 

[punisher73]

I know all courts are different and things are charged and prosecuting differently. But, in our county I know a kickboxer was charged due to his training for an assault that broke someone's jaw, and it played into a higher sentence as well.

There are some assumptions about MA in general that are "true" to the general public. First, you are trained to hit harder and more effectively than an average person. Second, you are learning techniques that can seriously injure someone if used. Third, because you are trained, you should understand what your training can do and should only use it if it is absolutely necessary to protect you or someone else.

As for being a "nice guy", sorry after more than 20 years in the martial arts I think we have ALL seen the person who is nice in class, but outside is a completely different person. So, for his instructor to say how "nice" he was doesn't hold much water with me. Doesn't mean he might not have been a nice person, just that one person saying it doesn't mean much to me in making a judgment about the situation as a whole.

I mean, come on, he's a nice guy who was out harassing women and then sucker punched a guy....

 

[jobo]

I know all courts are different and things are charged and prosecuting differently. But, in our county I know a kickboxer was charged due to his training for an assault that broke someone's jaw, and it played into a higher sentence as well.

There are some assumptions about MA in general that are "true" to the general public. First, you are trained to hit harder and more effectively than an average person. Second, you are learning techniques that can seriously injure someone if used. Third, because you are trained, you should understand what your training can do and should only use it if it is absolutely necessary to protect you or someone else.

As for being a "nice guy", sorry after more than 20 years in the martial arts I think we have ALL seen the person who is nice in class, but outside is a completely different person. So, for his instructor to say how "nice" he was doesn't hold much water with me. Doesn't mean he might not have been a nice person, just that one person saying it doesn't mean much to me in making a judgment about the situation as a whole.

I mean, come on, he's a nice guy who was out harassing women and then sucker punched a guy....

people keep making similar claims, but never put up any evidence that what they assume to be true, is infact true. It's all just anecdotes', I heard of this kickboxer who,,,,, which kickboxer when, where is the news report ?

if you assault someone and break their jaw, you are going to court and most likely convicted. I dont see a 140 lb kick boxer being treated worse than a 300 power lifter who did a similar thing, unless you actually have something/ anything to back up this point of view