Unintended Consequences

[Gerry Seymour]

my intial reaction was to wonder why they they were celebrating St Patricks day in Russia, then I realised the usa pinch all their place names from some where else.

second , considering all the punches thrown in America in a week, that its news worthy makes it a very rare out come

third, it should indeed be a consideration, so either ignore the drunken ramblings, or if you really can't let it go, provoke them into having first swing or, do something that causes acute pain that doesn't involve punching them in the head. Like kicking them in the shins or stamping on their toe
I once set fire to someone's beard, in similar circumstances, then put the fire out by throwing his drink over him, seemed to make the point

Being punched is pretty rare for most of us, in any case (outside our training arena). Many of us train for what is not statistically common. That an injury like this isn't the most likely scenario doesn't make it inconsequential.

And things like setting fire to someone's beard are just foolish, IMO.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

people keep making similar claims, but never put up any evidence that what they assume to be true, is infact true. It's all just anecdotes', I heard of this kickboxer who,,,,, which kickboxer when, where is the news report ?

if you assault someone and break their jaw, you are going to court and most likely convicted. I dont see a 140 lb kick boxer being treated worse than a 300 power lifter who did a similar thing, unless you actually have something/ anything to back up this point of view

That's confounding the variables, and actually supporting the point (140 lb kickboxer = 300 lb powerlifter). Now, compare that 140 lb kickboxer to a 140 lb person with no training, no obvious physical advantage, etc.

 

[jobo]

Being punched is pretty rare for most of us, in any case (outside our training arena). Many of us train for what is not statistically common. That an injury like this isn't the most likely scenario doesn't make it inconsequential.

And things like setting fire to someone's beard are just foolish, IMO.

I dont see your objection, I'm advising action that won't result in a manslaughter case if your heavily provoked. In my defence I only expected to singe his beard,he had spent 25 minutes annoying me, that it burst in to flames was as much a surprise. As it was a bonus

 

[jobo]

That's confounding the variables, and actually supporting the point (140 lb kickboxer = 300 lb powerlifter). Now, compare that 140 lb kickboxer to a 140 lb person with no training, no obvious physical advantage, etc.

no the guys case was that a martial artist would always be treated worse than an untrained person, now your going back on that. You now including all people that have a marked physical advantage. Make your mind up which it is

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no the guys case was that a martial artist would always be treated worse than an untrained person, now your going back on that. You now including all people that have a marked physical advantage. Make your mind up which it is

No, I'm not. You're saying that the MA training would make him equal in the jury's eyes to someone more than twice his size and much stronger. I'd say that's pretty clearly treating him differently.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I dont see your objection, I'm advising action that won't result in a manslaughter case if your heavily provoked. In my defence I only expected to singe his beard,he had spent 25 minutes annoying me, that it burst in to flames was as much a surprise. As it was a bonus

Putting flame to someone for "annoying" you is, IMO, no wiser than taking a swing at them.

 

[CB Jones]

My 2 cents:

It's not the training that enhances the penalty....it's the damage done.

Your training makes you more efficient at doing maximum damage.

If you are found to have broken criminal laws (assault and battery statutes) the extent of damage you do factors in.

 

[jobo]

Putting flame to someone for "annoying" you is, IMO, no wiser than taking a swing at them.

you had to be there is was hilarious,

 

[jobo]

No, I'm not. You're saying that the MA training would make him equal in the jury's eyes to someone more than twice his size and much stronger. I'd say that's pretty clearly treating him differently.

no your telling me what I'm saying now when all I saying is the other guy is wrong. You might be wrong as well, but ive
no idea what point you are making

 

[jobo]

My 2 cents:

It's not the training that enhances the penalty....it's the damage done.

Your training makes you more efficient at doing maximum damage.

If you are found to have broken criminal laws (assault and battery statutes) the extent of damage you do factors in.

yes i think thats an accurate point

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no your telling me what I'm saying now when all I saying is the other guy is wrong. You might be wrong as well, but ive
no idea what point you are making

Because I read what you said. You equated the small MA guy with the huge and strong guy. That's a different treatment. Perhaps you don't recognize it, but that's what's in your own statement.

 

[WaterGal]

Quite honestly there were was no reason for the other guy to say anything. Now of course catcalling anyone not just women is wrong totally wrong and sleazy /but/ it's also not something that needs anyone to step in about. Sure it's pretty stupid but no ones getting hurt there's no physical threat so why bother stepping in was it worth what happened to him happening over something as dumb as that

There was a threat, it just wasn't a threat to the man who said to stop. The threat was to the women.

Sexual harassment is about power and about violence. When a man sexually harasses a woman, there's always an unspoken message that if she tells him to shove off, she may end up just like the guy in this article.

So instead, women typically resign themselves to quietly accept the harassment and walk away, in order to prevent physical violence against themselves. But when you receive that kind of treatment on a regular basis and can't do anything about it, you have to just bite your lip and take it, it's very tough.

In other words, while it's real tragic what happened to this guy, I think he's admirable for seeing someone being abusive and trying to stop it.

 

[jobo]

Because I read what you said. You equated the small MA guy with the huge and strong guy. That's a different treatment. Perhaps you don't recognize it, but that's what's in your own statement.

different treatment than who, please state your point, I dont know if your arguing on behalf of the other guy, or if your making your own point.
his case was that a trained MA guy would ALWAYS be treated more harshly than ANYONE ELSE . THATS WRONG. So are you agreeing with him or makes ng a different point

 

[Gerry Seymour]

different treatment than who, please state your point, I dont know if your arguing on behalf of the other guy, or if your making your own point.
his case was that a trained MA guy would ALWAYS be treated more harshly than ANYONE ELSE . THATS WRONG. So are you agreeing with him or makes ng a different point

Different treatment than "normal". If the comparison person has to be twice the size and a powerlifter to be equal to that martial artist, that's some pretty extraordinary standards being applied to the martial artist. My point is that your example actually supports the original premise, rather than contradicting it. I'm not supporting either side - just pointing out a problem in your argument.

 

[jobo]

Different treatment than "normal". If the comparison person has to be twice the size and a powerlifter to be equal to that martial artist, that's some pretty extraordinary standards being applied to the martial artist. My point is that your example actually supports the original premise, rather than contradicting it. I'm not supporting either side - just pointing out a problem in your argument.

I'm wearing out the keys typing the same thing over again
his point was that MAer are treated more harshly than EVERYONE else. My point was, they are not, for instance a power lifter might be treated equally harshly. But for that matter so would a 100 lb weakling who attacked an old man.

that these factors apply to every one, means his point was wrong

 

[drop bear]

in Australia it 8 years straight up for that.

One Punch Laws | Robertson OGorman Solicitors | Brisbane Qld

 

[Headhunter]

There was a threat, it just wasn't a threat to the man who said to stop. The threat was to the women.

Sexual harassment is about power and about violence. When a man sexually harasses a woman, there's always an unspoken message that if she tells him to shove off, she may end up just like the guy in this article.

So instead, women typically resign themselves to quietly accept the harassment and walk away, in order to prevent physical violence against themselves. But when you receive that kind of treatment on a regular basis and can't do anything about it, you have to just bite your lip and take it, it's very tough.

In other words, while it's real tragic what happened to this guy, I think he's admirable for seeing someone being abusive and trying to stop it.

Yeah and look where being admirable gets him. Like I said it's not great but It's not worth ruining your life over. Yeah sure it's always tempting to play hero but the smart thing is to mind your own business and don't get involved in others. If this guy had ignored it what would've happened to that woman...nothing but look what's happened to the man who got himself involved for no reason.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm wearing out the keys typing the same thing over again
his point was that MAer are treated more harshly than EVERYONE else. My point was, they are not, for instance a power lifter might be treated equally harshly. But for that matter so would a 100 lb weakling who attacked an old man.

that these factors apply to every one, means his point was wrong

Except that you doubled the size of the powerlifter.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There was a threat, it just wasn't a threat to the man who said to stop. The threat was to the women.

Sexual harassment is about power and about violence. When a man sexually harasses a woman, there's always an unspoken message that if she tells him to shove off, she may end up just like the guy in this article.

So instead, women typically resign themselves to quietly accept the harassment and walk away, in order to prevent physical violence against themselves. But when you receive that kind of treatment on a regular basis and can't do anything about it, you have to just bite your lip and take it, it's very tough.

In other words, while it's real tragic what happened to this guy, I think he's admirable for seeing someone being abusive and trying to stop it.

I have to agree with you and those speaking toward safety. There are conflicting values here, and both are virtuous. We take a risk every time we take a stand. And someone must take a stand for any change to begin. Was this the place to take that stand? That's a philosophical debate with no logical conclusion. I'd likely be the guy speaking up in this case, despite the risks.

 

[JR 137]

I know all courts are different and things are charged and prosecuting differently. But, in our county I know a kickboxer was charged due to his training for an assault that broke someone's jaw, and it played into a higher sentence as well.

There are some assumptions about MA in general that are "true" to the general public. First, you are trained to hit harder and more effectively than an average person. Second, you are learning techniques that can seriously injure someone if used. Third, because you are trained, you should understand what your training can do and should only use it if it is absolutely necessary to protect you or someone else.

As for being a "nice guy", sorry after more than 20 years in the martial arts I think we have ALL seen the person who is nice in class, but outside is a completely different person. So, for his instructor to say how "nice" he was doesn't hold much water with me. Doesn't mean he might not have been a nice person, just that one person saying it doesn't mean much to me in making a judgment about the situation as a whole.

I mean, come on, he's a nice guy who was out harassing women and then sucker punched a guy....

Reminds me of when a serial killer is caught and the news interviews the next door neighbor. "He was a great guy. He was quiet and kept to himself. Didn't bother anyone. I can't believe he was a serial killer."

If there's a serial killer in the area, the safest person is the next door neighbor.