Understanding about angles

[Kung Fu Wang]

When taking the fall, tori should retain his grip on the sleeve and uke should retain his grip on the lapel, both work to support the fall being taken.

Agree with you on the 1st part. Disagree with you on the 2nd part.

When you throw me,

1. You hold on to my sleeve so you can pull me to cancel the impact of your throw.
2. If I hold on to your lapel, I may pull you down with me and your body weight may cause some injury on my body.

IMO, it's better for me to release my lapel hold on you and use that hand to protect my head.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the uke (person being thrown) is basically acting as a grappling dummy that can stand up by itself while the thrower learns the fundamental body mechanics of the throw.

Agree with you on this. This is why I believe when you throw me (in training), whether I have grips on you or not make no difference at all.

In this clip, When A throws B, B doesn't have any grip on A.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The opponent is fighting back. So you wind up with neutral grips.

Which strategy is better in your opinion?

You spend most of your effort to deal with your opponent's

1. throw - resist, yield, counter your opponent's throw.
2. grips - not allow your opponent to have 2 grips on you (1 grip is OK).

One time I tested myself on the mat. Within 15 minutes, my opponent had never had 2 grips on me. It can be done (whether you may call that avoid fighting or not).

 

[wab25]

When you throw me,

1. You hold on to my sleeve so you can pull me to cancel the impact of your throw.
2. If I hold on to your lapel, I may pull you down with me and your body weight may cause some injury on my body.

In training, we are working together. So, when you hold my lapel, it means that I must maintain good structure, to avoid being pulled down. When done with proper structure, uke should be able to pull himself up off the floor, by tori's lapel, without tori having to change his stance.

In Judo, when they throw, they land on top of you. By maintaining your grip on the lapel you may be able to steer tori a bit... but he is landing on you anyway.

There are counter throws. So, you throw me over your hip, but I then throw you while I am in the air. You land first. This works if I maintain my grip on your lapel, and then snap my hips as I come over your hip... it will throw you over me like a sacrifice throw. So, by maintaining the grip from the beginning, I am working on the counter throw as well as getting extra support....

 

[drop bear]

Which strategy is better in your opinion?

You spend most of your effort to deal with your opponent's

1. throw - resist, yield, counter your opponent's throw.
2. grips - not allow your opponent to have 2 grips on you (1 grip is OK).

One time I tested myself on the mat. Within 15 minutes, my opponent had never had 2 grips on me. It can be done (whether you may call that avoid fighting or not).

It depends what you are training. If you are training the art of throwing then you need to practice that. And so you need to place yourself in some sort of situation where that might happen.

Trading grips is a bit of a time waste in practice. If you are practising wrestling.

If you are practising grips. And a bit of grip work here and there, fine. But if you spend rounds running away untill you have the dominant position then. No. It is a waste of time.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It depends what you are training.

I don't mean training. I mean competition. The Mongolian wrestling only has 1 round with no time limit.

 

[drop bear]

I don't mean training. I mean competition. The Mongolian wrestling only has 1 round with no time limit.

Is there a passivity rule?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Would you like to create an opportunity that you can throw your opponent, but your opponent can't throw you (such as you have 1 grip on your opponent while your opponent has no grip on you)?

The question is, how much effort are you willing to put in to create that opportunity?

In the following clip, you can see the guy who has no grip on his opponent starts to ger panic. While he tries to get his grip back, his opponent is ready to take him down. His opponent is 1 step ahead of him.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is there a passivity rule?

I don't believe so.

When there is only 1 round, the emphasize may be different.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In Judo, when they throw, they land on top of you.

This can be the major difference between Judo and SC. A SC guy trains to roll over his opponent's body (because there is no ground game).

Not saying which ruleset is better. It's just different rulesets.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

One time I tested myself on the mat. Within 15 minutes, my opponent had never had 2 grips on me. It can be done (whether you may call that avoid fighting or not).

I think this sort of thing is why Judo instituted the “no two-handed grip breaks” rule, to avoid indefinite stalling.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think this sort of thing is why Judo instituted the “no two-handed grip breaks” rule, to avoid indefinite stalling.

Will you call these 2 clips "two-handed grip breaks"? If the answer is yes then why?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Will you call this "two-handed grip breaks"? If the answer is yes then why?

I couldn’t see the action in the video clearly enough to tell. In the context of Judo rules, it would be when someone grabs your lapel with one hand and you grab their hand or wrist with both of your hands to pop their grip off.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I couldn’t see the action in the video clearly enough to tell. In the context of Judo rules, it would be when someone grabs your lapel with one hand and you grab their hand or wrist with both of your hands to pop their grip off.

Are you talking about something like this? I only use it to break the front belt hold because the front belt hold is a very strong hold.

This is the "tearing" principle that I'm talking about. It's the 1st principle that's taught in the SC system. That's how important the SC system considers this principle is.

撕(Si) - Tearing
崩(Beng) - Cracking
捅(Tong) - Striking push
褪(tun) - Hand pushing
肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing
...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Are you talking about something like this? I only use it to break the front belt hold because the front belt hold is a very strong hold.

Yep. That's the one. It used to be allowed, but apparently the Judo rules makers decided that it was too effective for preventing grips and stalling.

This is the "tearing" principle that I'm talking about. It's the 1st principle that's taught in the SC system. That's how important the SC system considers this principle is.

撕(Si) - Tearing
崩(Beng) - Cracking
捅(Tong) - Striking push
褪(tun) - Hand pushing
肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing
...

That's perfectly legal in Judo.

 

[Danniwell]

I haven't tried the specific application shown in your video, but I very much like the underlying concept. I find that it's useful in both grappling and striking. Rather than physically forcing your opponent to move (which can be hard if they are stronger than you), move yourself to an advantageous angle. If they don't move, then you are in a better position to attack. If they do move, then they give you energy to work with. Lots of applications. The hardest part is developing the timing and sensitivity to take advantage of that movement.

You were accurate in what you said. Judo has infinite variables. What I posted is what I usually do, but sometimes I don't move waiting to counter him. So on this occasion I would do the opposite of what I posted in the video.
There is no 100% right answer.

Youtube.com/@kaizenkanjudo