Turning on Heels?

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by Michael89, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    8,285
    Likes Received:
    2,539
    Trophy Points:
    263
    It is not the same. You are making an assumption based on a picture and not actually doing it. I used to be a track sprinter so unless you were a track sprinter then you aren't going to understand the concept of that picture that you posted with the person in the starting blocks. Which is why I posted a video of a person explaining it.
     
  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    8,285
    Likes Received:
    2,539
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Not true. They do a variety of heels up, heels down movements
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    10,630
    Likes Received:
    6,956
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    I've never turned on my heals - until just now. Kind of makes me want my toes growing out of my heel.

    But that just makes me wonder what shoes would look like.
     
  4. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    8,285
    Likes Received:
    2,539
    Trophy Points:
    263
    This is what trying to stay on your toes looks like
     
  5. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    8,285
    Likes Received:
    2,539
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Did your let your toes slide across the floor or did you try to completely lift your toes?
     
  6. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    10,630
    Likes Received:
    6,956
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    Both actually. Don't have a feel for either, but sliding the toes seemed easier for me.
    I think I'll wait another forty years before I do it again, though.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    3,027
    Likes Received:
    907
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Literally all of those pictures depict a mid-throw scenario, which is very different than a stance or footwork. Wrestlers certainly don't dance on their toes!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. anerlich

    anerlich Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    438
    Likes Received:
    308
    Trophy Points:
    218
    Location:
    Sydney AUS
    Same thing with Bruce Lee's "small phasic bent knee stance" from JKD. (may have remembered that name incorrectly)
     
  9. anerlich

    anerlich Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    438
    Likes Received:
    308
    Trophy Points:
    218
    Location:
    Sydney AUS
    To achieve maximum power in many movements (including lifting, throwing, jumping, etc.) the calf muscles need to be engaged. Sometimes that requires the heel to be off the floor, sometimes not.

    It is possible to overthink this.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. wckf92

    wckf92 Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2015
    Messages:
    1,290
    Likes Received:
    338
    Trophy Points:
    123
    yup...squats and deadlifts and kettlebelling to mention a few
     
  11. Vajramusti

    Vajramusti Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,283
    Likes Received:
    312
    Trophy Points:
    123
    -------------------------------------------------PS.To understand my points-we distinguish between development and application. In form development heels on the ground..
    In application adaptations occur.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2002
    Messages:
    4,240
    Likes Received:
    2,264
    Trophy Points:
    388
    Location:
    New Iberia, Louisiana USA
    Yep.
     
  13. Michael89

    Michael89 Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    8
    this been all very helpful to read. :)
     
  14. Jaeimseu

    Jaeimseu 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    885
    Likes Received:
    245
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Austin, Texas, USA
    I'm trying to think of any movement that involves turning the hips forward explosively in which I would want my back heel on the ground. From a Taekwondo perspective, I can't think of any.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    3,027
    Likes Received:
    907
    Trophy Points:
    213
    A forward hand hook in tight.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Bino TWT

    Bino TWT Green Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2017
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    80
    Trophy Points:
    183
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Everyone will give you different answers because various lineages have different engines for their footwork.

    Personally, I wouldn't recommend turning on your heels at all (or your toes, for that matter), and only more one foot at a time.

    By only moving one foot at a time, you are always solidly rooted to the ground and it's much hard to break your structure.

    If you shift on your heels, especially both feet at the same time, then I can plow into you while you're in motion and you will have no choice but to either attempt to recover and step back or fall. If you move on your toes and I Laap, down you go...

    I shift on the center/ball of my foot. If pressure is applied, I can root my heel, and if I'm pulled, I can root my toes. And since only one foot is in motion, the rest of my structure is solidly rooted on the stationary foot.

    Also, the way I move can be done in any shoes on any surface, not just in slippers on a fresh buffed floor.

    Not saying any other way is "wrong", just some food for thought about how I do it and why.
     
  17. Michael89

    Michael89 Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Yeah. good news is I'm getting better at turning my heels w/punching (or Taun da, Guan da, Pak da, Jut da) which I think it is called "Juen Ma". I been with Wing Chun School for 6 weeks now and I been picking up some of terms.

    also I believe this is what I was talking about http://www.wingchundevon.co.uk/wing-chun-turning-stance/
     
  18. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    6,414
    Likes Received:
    2,415
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    • Like Like x 1
  19. hkreporting

    hkreporting White Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2017
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    3
    In WC, initiating any pivoting and turning actually comes from your waist, so whether its heels or balls of feet, it shouldn't matter much as the power comes from your hips, but you probably have better structure if you do it on your heels as you have a stronger central axis and can control your opponent better in close range fighting. In Chum kiu, all that turning power is from the hips/waist. This was the way one sifu in Hong Kong explained it anyway.
     
  20. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    3,628
    Likes Received:
    974
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I agree with your first part, but not with your second part. Turning on the heels may have a stronger central axis, but turning closer to the balls of the feet provides better balance, control and output of power/force. If you turn on your heels, then your toes are swinging and cannot engage the ground as well for balance. If you turn closer to the balls of the feet, then your heels are swinging and your toes can grip the ground better to stabilize and provide better balance and control. If the opponent engages your center while you are pivoting on your heels, then you have very little "reserve" and can be forced back more easily. If the opponent engages your center while you are pivoting closer to the balls of the feet, then you have more "reserve" because your weight can rock back onto your heels and absorb his force better momentarily until you can deflect it. This also contributes to better balance and control. If you are putting out force in front of you into your opponent, force is better expressed by pushing off with the balls of the feet, not the heels. Sprinters do not apply forward force from their heels, boxers do not apply forward force from their heels, baseball pitchers do not apply forward force from their heels. All of this is just simple biomechanics.123
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

wing chun pivot