Training disarms with a laser cartridge

[Dirty Dog]

My google-fu is strong...

It's called a shockknife. Check it out.
$500 is too pricey for me, but you'd for sure know when you got "cut" by it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There's a real nifty knife simulator I've seen (but never tried) that has, essentially, an electrical wire along the edge. I'm sure that's about as close to real as anyone should ever get. And closer than I'd willingly get. The descriptions I've seen sound painful.

I’ve wanted one of those for a while. My biggest issue with them is they (and most rigid trainers) tend to encourage slashes over stabs, which isn’t in line with what I see in videos of actual knife attacks.

 

[Brian King]

For professionals in any profession, it is important to use the proper tool for the proper job. Matters no less if you are a chef, brain surgeon, house cleaner, or military/Law enforcement professional. For those that teach or that train with active professionals it is important to use the right tool to get the most benefit out of the training.

The different phases of learning will come into play as well. An absolute beginner needs different training aids than a long time practitioner in my opinion. Someone training up for combat needs different aspects of training than someone spending a few enjoyable hours of weekend training.

Training firearm disarms and retentions it is important to remember that two or more people are training at the same time. The person holding the weapon and the person attempting to take the weapon. There can be (and should be) psychological tempering for both, pulling the trigger and causing pain, and calmly and rationally facing and moving against an aimed firearm should be emphasized as well as the practice techniques or movements in my opinion.

A laser cartridge is great for practicing trigger pull, checking if your handgun seating is true or the face weld on a long gun is correct. It is good inexpensive point shooting practice that can be accomplished quietly at home or office. For weapon disarms or retention practice I do not believe that this tool is that beneficial.

Blue guns, rubber guns, aluminum cast guns, real firearms, these are great for practicing violent takeaways as they can take a beating without catastrophic failures to the weapon system. Each type mentioned has a strength and weakness.

Rubber guns have the structural give that allow for mistakes without the broken fingers or cracked teeth. Their weakness is that the structural give is unnatural and that the leverage is altered.

Blue/red guns have the structured strength needed for leveraged takeaways and retentions. The disadvantage is that they even though they are solid plastic and they feel it. The psychology of having a plastic weapon placed to your neck is different than a hard cold/hot metal weapon. The psychology of pointing a blue gun is different than pointing a more realistic firearm.

Aluminum cast weapons have the structured strength to practice any leveraged takeaways and retentions. They also have the feel of metal whether placed against skin, muscle, or bone. The disadvantage is that they shatter if during practice they fly any distance and land on hard surfaces. They also can mark mats and gouge wood floors. In extreme coldness they are uncomfortable and easy to break.

That nothing feels more real than a real firearm is obvious. The coldness, the sharp edges, the smell, and the feel is very difficult to recreate. The psychology of pointing and having one pointed at you can be intense and deep. One con is that they are expensive and no one wants theirs scratched and tossed across the room. An additional con is that the psychology of pointing and having one pointed at you can be intense and deep. I do not believe that most need to train with real firearms unless you use a firearm for your profession and even then not too often and highly recommend a flagging method be adopted and used.

I have seen live fire practice and cannot and do not recommend this type of training. The training aids available to us today make this type of training obsolete and the risks far outweigh any possible benefit.

Airsoft, blank firing arms, firearms adjusted to fire simunitions, paintball weapons are also great for practicing disarms and retentions. Again each has a place in the training in my opinion.

Blank firing arms (must still wear protection) are great for experiencing the noise, flash, and smell of gunfire at close range (especially unexpected discharges are of training benefit). Seeing the empty cartridge fly and feeling the shockwave of the discharge can be disorientating.

Airsoft and simunitions are great for training disarms and retentions as pain is a very good teacher and the psychology of pulling the trigger and knowingly causing pain to your training partner as well as seeing your training partner pull the trigger and feeling the immediate pain cannot be overstated. Airsoft weapons are mostly inexpensive and can often be found in the make and model of familiar handguns and rifles. Airsoft ammo is very inexpensive but there is nothing soft about airsoft. I recommend the gas operated metal models. Simunitions are expensive and very difficult to get unless you are a member of an official agency. Should you ever get a chance to train with them, do. Wear much more protection than airsoft.

Paint ball weapons are fun and visually point out immediately hits or misses. They are not as tough and durable as other training aids, so violent disarms can damage the tool. They also often do not have the feel of real weapons.

Rubber band guns, squirt guns, pointing your finger- better than nothing and any training in many cases is better than no training.

For armed professionals or those that train them or with them, taking the time to learn about and experience the advantages and disadvantages of the different training tools available is well worth the effort and expense in my opinion.

Regards

Brian King

 

[Dirty Dog]

I’ve wanted one of those for a while. My biggest issue with them is they (and most rigid trainers) tend to encourage slashes over stabs, which isn’t in line with what I see in videos of actual knife attacks.

They do, and this is a big problem. One thing I can promise you, after treating one or two knife wounds... slashing is messy, but LOTS easier to fix than a stab wound.
In general, you can be slashed multiple times on the torso, get some stitches and go home (or jail or whatever). One good stab to the torso and you're staying. Probably with a visit to the OR.

 

[Runs With Fire]

For professionals in any profession, it is important to use the proper tool for the proper job. Matters no less if you are a chef, brain surgeon, house cleaner, or military/Law enforcement professional. For those that teach or that train with active professionals it is important to use the right tool to get the most benefit out of the training.

The different phases of learning will come into play as well. An absolute beginner needs different training aids than a long time practitioner in my opinion. Someone training up for combat needs different aspects of training than someone spending a few enjoyable hours of weekend training.

Training firearm disarms and retentions it is important to remember that two or more people are training at the same time. The person holding the weapon and the person attempting to take the weapon. There can be (and should be) psychological tempering for both, pulling the trigger and causing pain, and calmly and rationally facing and moving against an aimed firearm should be emphasized as well as the practice techniques or movements in my opinion.

A laser cartridge is great for practicing trigger pull, checking if your handgun seating is true or the face weld on a long gun is correct. It is good inexpensive point shooting practice that can be accomplished quietly at home or office. For weapon disarms or retention practice I do not believe that this tool is that beneficial.

Blue guns, rubber guns, aluminum cast guns, real firearms, these are great for practicing violent takeaways as they can take a beating without catastrophic failures to the weapon system. Each type mentioned has a strength and weakness.

Rubber guns have the structural give that allow for mistakes without the broken fingers or cracked teeth. Their weakness is that the structural give is unnatural and that the leverage is altered.

Blue/red guns have the structured strength needed for leveraged takeaways and retentions. The disadvantage is that they even though they are solid plastic and they feel it. The psychology of having a plastic weapon placed to your neck is different than a hard cold/hot metal weapon. The psychology of pointing a blue gun is different than pointing a more realistic firearm.

Aluminum cast weapons have the structured strength to practice any leveraged takeaways and retentions. They also have the feel of metal whether placed against skin, muscle, or bone. The disadvantage is that they shatter if during practice they fly any distance and land on hard surfaces. They also can mark mats and gouge wood floors. In extreme coldness they are uncomfortable and easy to break.

That nothing feels more real than a real firearm is obvious. The coldness, the sharp edges, the smell, and the feel is very difficult to recreate. The psychology of pointing and having one pointed at you can be intense and deep. One con is that they are expensive and no one wants theirs scratched and tossed across the room. An additional con is that the psychology of pointing and having one pointed at you can be intense and deep. I do not believe that most need to train with real firearms unless you use a firearm for your profession and even then not too often and highly recommend a flagging method be adopted and used.

I have seen live fire practice and cannot and do not recommend this type of training. The training aids available to us today make this type of training obsolete and the risks far outweigh any possible benefit.

Airsoft, blank firing arms, firearms adjusted to fire simunitions, paintball weapons are also great for practicing disarms and retentions. Again each has a place in the training in my opinion.

Blank firing arms (must still wear protection) are great for experiencing the noise, flash, and smell of gunfire at close range (especially unexpected discharges are of training benefit). Seeing the empty cartridge fly and feeling the shockwave of the discharge can be disorientating.

Airsoft and simunitions are great for training disarms and retentions as pain is a very good teacher and the psychology of pulling the trigger and knowingly causing pain to your training partner as well as seeing your training partner pull the trigger and feeling the immediate pain cannot be overstated. Airsoft weapons are mostly inexpensive and can often be found in the make and model of familiar handguns and rifles. Airsoft ammo is very inexpensive but there is nothing soft about airsoft. I recommend the gas operated metal models. Simunitions are expensive and very difficult to get unless you are a member of an official agency. Should you ever get a chance to train with them, do. Wear much more protection than airsoft.

Paint ball weapons are fun and visually point out immediately hits or misses. They are not as tough and durable as other training aids, so violent disarms can damage the tool. They also often do not have the feel of real weapons.

Rubber band guns, squirt guns, pointing your finger- better than nothing and any training in many cases is better than no training.

For armed professionals or those that train them or with them, taking the time to learn about and experience the advantages and disadvantages of the different training tools available is well worth the effort and expense in my opinion.

Regards

Brian King

A blank firing pistol, like a starter pistol, that's what I want!

 

[punisher73]

This is an idiotic thing to do with any gun that is ever loaded. Get a dummy gun that's specifically designed for this sort of training and cannot fire a real round.
What your instructor is doing is how people end up dead.

Yep. When our department trains simunitions, we go through triple checks to make sure that there are no weapons anywhere NEAR where we are training and we are patted down several times before and again anytime we exit and re-enter the area. ALL of the guns used are of a different color to designate them as the sim guns.

There have been WAY too many times when a person accidentally reloads the weapon and ends up shooting someone or something on accident. This includes firearms instructors who knew better, but still broke one of the main rules.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

They do, and this is a big problem. One thing I can promise you, after treating one or two knife wounds... slashing is messy, but LOTS easier to fix than a stab wound.
In general, you can be slashed multiple times on the torso, get some stitches and go home (or jail or whatever). One good stab to the torso and you're staying. Probably with a visit to the OR.

A slight swerve here, then I'll get back on topic...

This is one of my observations about knife defense training. Slashes and their defenses look and feel better, so tend to get a lot more attention. Yet stabs are more dangerous and harder to defend, so should probably get the lion's share of the attention. The over-focus on slashes is part of the reason so many don't get to experience failure on a regular basis in knife defense training.

 

[Invisibleflash]

OP, sounds like a good use of the laser cartridges.

I've used laser cartridges for year, but for target work in my house when I can't get to the range.

 

[Dirty Dog]

OP, sounds like a good use of the laser cartridges.

I've used laser cartridges for year, but for target work in my house when I can't get to the range.

No. It's not. It's an idiotic use of laser cartridges. Using a real gun for these exercises is moronic. It's begging for disaster. I don't care how careful you claim you are. Don't do it.
Use one of the many many many actual safe alternatives instead.