Train WC without form and stance

[Kung Fu Wang]

In today's class, my student asked me to teach him some WC. I usually don't teach any particular MA style.

- We both have right leg forward.
- I threw a right jab, he blocked with right Tang Shou to his left.
- I then threw a left cross, he blocked with right Tang Shou to his right.

When he blocked my right jab, his right Tang Shou bounced back to his center. When he blocked my left cross, his right Tang Shou bounced back to his center again. We drilled this about 100 times until he understood the usage of Tang Shou

- We both have right leg forward.
- I threw a right jab, he blocked with right Right Fu Shou.
- I then threw a left cross, he blocked with a right Bong Shou.

When he blocked my left cross, his right wrist can still controlled on my right arm wrist. We drilled this about 100 times until he understood the usage of Fu Shou and Bong Shou.

There were no form training involved and no stance training involved. We just started from "partner drills" to deal with a common jab, cross combo.

What's your opinion about this training approach?

 

[wckf92]

What's your opinion about this training approach?

My opinion is that you are ingraining an undesirable behavior in your student. But, since you just admitted that you don't really train / teach any specific MA...no worries!

 

[Nobody Important]

In today's class, my student asked me to teach him some WC. I usually don't teach any particular MA style.

- We both have right leg forward.
- I threw a right jab, he blocked with right Tang Shou to his left.
- I then threw a left cross, he blocked with right Tang Shou to his right.

When he blocked my right jab, his right Tang Shou bounced back to his center. When he blocked my left cross, his right Tang Shou bounced back to his center again. We drilled this about 100 times until he understood the usage of Tang Shou

- We both have right leg forward.
- I threw a right jab, he blocked with right Right Fu Shou.
- I then threw a left cross, he blocked with a right Bong Shou.

When he blocked my left cross, his right wrist can still controlled on my right arm wrist. We drilled this about 100 times until he understood the usage of Fu Shou and Bong Shou.

There were no form training involved and no stance training involved. We just started from "partner drills" to deal with a common jab, cross combo.

What's your opinion about this training approach?

Personally I'm a fan of simple 1, 2, 3 type training.

I often have students face off and drill 1 defensive technique vs. 1 offensive technique until it is understood, no deviation. From there we work further and more organically, but at a basic level we just drill it to understand purpose.

In example we will take bong and do drills, high , low, sweeping, barring etc. Learning all the different uses bong has to offer in simple 1 to 1 application without the convolution of strategy or theory. There has to be a starting point for every new technique or concept introduced.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't believe wing chun is so much about specific techniques, as it is about developing the principles. Then, the technique expresses the principles. But you need the principles first, and that is what stance and forms help develop. Technique without understanding the principles is just flapping your arms.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There were no form training involved and no stance training involved. We just started from "partner drills" to deal with a common jab, cross combo.

What's your opinion about this training approach?

Wow I really don't have an opinion. I got some facts though. The ability to use the technique will only be as strong as the stance will allow it. A weak stance is unstable and it destroys the structure of a technique, the movement of the body, and reduces one's ability to defend effectively.

Oh and as for you training the student.. I don't have an opinion about that. Training is basically up to the person that is teaching. The teacher (in this case you) can choose what to train and when.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The ability to use the technique will only be as strong as the stance will allow it. A weak stance is unstable and it destroys the structure of a technique, ...

I didn't mention that new student already had 12 years training in other CMA systems. His body unification and rooting are very good (may be a bit too much hard and not enough soft). Just an experience CMA guy wants to cross train the WC system. As I have said, I don't teach any MA system. I only teach "how to enter and how to finish".

If he wants to learn

- Baiji, I'll start him from power generation methods.
- praying mantis, I'll start him from fast hand combo.
- long fist, I'll start him from kick, punch combo.
- WC, I'll start him from Tang, Fu, and Bong.
- ...

 

[JowGaWolf]

I didn't mention that new student already had 12 years training in other CMA systems. His body unification and rooting are very good (may be a bit too much hard and not enough soft). Just an experience CMA guy wants to cross train the WC system. As I have said, I don't teach any MA system. I only teach "how to enter and how to finish".

If he wants to learn

- Baiji, I'll start him from power generation methods.
- praying mantis, I'll start him from fast hand combo.
- long fist, I'll start him from kick, punch combo.
- WC, I'll start him from Tang, Fu, and Bong.
- ...

Well sounds good to me. Trees always grow from the root. MMA has shown that technique can be learned without form. That's what drilling is. Taking a technique from a form and doing it over and over

 

[yak sao]

While it sounds like a productive training session, I wouldn't say it was WC, any more than if I practiced my footwork in a circle and called it pa kua.

Pulling a few techniques out of a form and drilling them without the context of said form is not training WC, or any other MA for that matter.
WC forms are there to teach the student the principles of the system. Then, while the student is learning this you can take certain things out of the forms to demonstrate those principles and have them drill them to help further ingrain them.
WC is a synergistic system, the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. Tan sau works the way it does because of the body unity built into the body through form and stance training.
A tan sau without the underlying structure built in is not truly a tan sau, because ultimately, your arm does not perform tan sau, your whole body does.

Having said all that, I love the pressure testing aspect of what you were doing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Tan sau works the way it does because of the body unity built into the body through form and stance training.

I believe Tang Shou also works in

- XingYi Santi (3-7) stance,
- long fist 4-6 stance,
- praying mantis monkey stance, and
- ...

Bruce Lee used monkey stance (back heel up) in his movie. As long as you can successfully use it in fighting, that's all matters.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think the OP makes it clear that he's no teaching WC, he's teaching WC techniques. I'm willing to bet that WC drills techniques before form. Once the technique is learned then the form can be learned. Or is WC different?

 

[Nobody Important]

I think the OP makes it clear that he's no teaching WC, he's teaching WC techniques. I'm willing to bet that WC drills techniques before form. Once the technique is learned then the form can be learned. Or is WC different?

Fundamental techniques, forms, concepts/theory/strategy. Building blocks, that's how I do it. Can't speak for anyone else.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Fundamental techniques, forms, concepts/theory/strategy. Building blocks, that's how I do it. Can't speak for anyone else.

If you train partner drills, you will get your form for free.

Solo drill = partner drill without partner.

Form = solo drill 1 + solo drill 2 + ...

 

[Nobody Important]

If you train partner drills, you will get your form for free.

Solo drill = partner drill without partner.

Form = solo drill 1 + solo drill 2 + ...

I agree, and that is actually called frame training. That's how it was done in the old days by the military.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In that class, I also included:

- use Bong Shou to break a tight clinch.
- chain punches (1 step 3 punches).
- chain kicks (knee stepping).

 

[Phobius]

If you train partner drills, you will get your form for free.

Not sure how it is meant but I disagree on one account.

Partner drills requires that at least someone has done the forms and understands them. However I just want to mention that forms serve another value as well. For teaching purposes the forms are like a memory bank as well as stretching and preparing your body to do the moves as natural as they can be done.

Partner drills will however not likely make the movements natural to you because in the purpose of the drill you will not get that possibility to stretch and adapt your body to the moves in a natural way.

Still do not disagree about doing partner drills instead. I am not a fan of people overdoing the forms. At least not as beginners. On later levels there is of course value in looking at the forms quite a bit.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Partner drills requires that at least someone has done the forms and understands them. However I just want to mention that forms serve another value as well. For teaching purposes the forms are like a memory bank as well as stretching and preparing your body to do the moves as natural as they can be done.

Agree that if you only train partner drills, the form that comes out of it may not look good. I have students who have been with me for over 12 years and I have not taught them any form yet. If they go to compete form in tournament, even I won't give them any high score. This is why I prefer to call the solo form training as "polishing". After you have developed your skill, you want to polish it as nice as possible.

For example, in partner drill that when you push your opponent's head down, hook his leg up to throw him, you may not have to push your hand very low and lift your leg very high.

But for "polishing", you will have to touch your hand on your ankle and lift your leg much higher.

 

[KPM]

There were no form training involved and no stance training involved. We just started from "partner drills" to deal with a common jab, cross combo.

What's your opinion about this training approach?

You can teach a lot and do a lot without any choreographed forms training. But you need a stance that reflects the biomechanics that you are trying to develop. There is no such thing as having "no stance." You are always standing in one way or another. Its like the old saying...."to have no opinion, is to have an opinion"!! So if you aren't teaching a good stance along with the training and are just letting the student stand any way they want....they may or may not be developing good biomechanics.

 

[KPM]

I didn't mention that new student already had 12 years training in other CMA systems. His body unification and rooting are very good (may be a bit too much hard and not enough soft).
- ...

Oh! Then he DID have stance training! In which case it sounds like his use of Wing Chun will be very different because his biomechanics behind it will be very different from Wing Chun biomechanics.

 

[KPM]

I think the OP makes it clear that he's no teaching WC, he's teaching WC techniques. I'm willing to bet that WC drills techniques before form. Once the technique is learned then the form can be learned. Or is WC different?

You have to learn the root biomechanics that power what you are doing. Since the biomechanics behind Wing Chun tend to be somewhat different from most other CMA's, this is significant. Hung Ga may do a technique that is essentially the same as a Tan Sau, but that doesn't make it Wing Chun.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But you need a stance that reflects the biomechanics that you are trying to develop. There is no such thing as having "no stance."

Students can learn stances through the partner drills, or the solo drills (partner drill without partner). For example, you can drill hip throw 100 times with your partner or solo. At the same time your "cat stance (starting position)" and "horse stance (finish position)" can be trained down to the final detail such as:

1. cat stance - 100% weight on the back leg, front foot only touch toes on the ground, drop low, and ...
2. horse stance - separate legs as shoulder width, both feet parallel, drop down, keep knees on within feet, and ...

The advantage of this approach is students can link stances directly to fighting. Through the dynamic movement, they are training stances but they may not know they are training stance.