"Traditional Taekwondo"

[Spookey]

Dear All,


Having panned through this thread and seeing the various discussion regarding the creation, evolution, and general basis of Taekwon-Do. I have agreed and disagreed.

Regardless, I wish to add the following in regards the opinions of "Traditional Taekwon-Do" (ie: When they were fighters and soldiers not "players"). Here the opinion of our nations defenders the USMC regarding Taekwon-Do!

Click here...
http://www.mca-marines.org/Gazette/2005/05durand.html

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

 

[terryl965]

ahhh Terry, I don't know how to tell you this, but Okinaowa is owned by Japan, and Tae Kwon Do was made prodimitly by General Choi. Korean Martial Arts have been around by for thousands of years, but Tae Kwon Do isn't one of them.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

John here is a piece of info. from the Kukkiwon website about the history please read and if you dis agree please e-mail them to let them now/ Have a nice day.
Master Terry Lee Stoker

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[Marginal]

The WTF info's a skosh too sanitized/biased, it's about like going strictly by the ITF history. A lot happened, and there were a great many contributors to the current state of TKD.

http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.html

I'm not going to cut and paste the whole thing, but it does provide a fairly balanced overview of how things developed. Vague cave paintings and folk leg wrestling games just aren't strong enough links to what's actually practiced today IMO.

 

[terryl965]

The WTF info's a skosh too sanitized/biased, it's about like going strictly by the ITF history. A lot happened, and there were a great many contributors to the current state of TKD.

http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.html

I'm not going to cut and paste the whole thing, but it does provide a fairly balanced overview of how things developed. Vague cave paintings and folk leg wrestling games just aren't strong enough links to what's actually practiced today IMO.

This is Kukkiwon info. not WTF, WTF is world taekwondo federation there is a differemce in the two organization and you are right about the ITF there info. is different too.
Thanks
Master Stoker

 

[Spookey]

Dear All,


This is turning into a "Creation of Taekwon-Do" thread so lets take it back and review some previous points and get it going again!

Please visit 10 pages of previous thread regarding the same line of conversation...


Who is the Founder of TKD...Debate!

Hope to see you all there soon...or lets start another thread in the TKD section (revisited so to speak) if this one is a bit to cluttered!

I recommend this suggestion based on the number of new-comers and the interesting info they will share and learn!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

 

[Marginal]

Once you start getting into the founders, it's kind of a dry hole topic IMO. It's kinda like debating what constitutes fair use some will argue that reposting a portion of an article for educational purposes, for no profit, with full credit, and in a context that is not challenged by the copyright holder would constitute fair use... But I digress. It only matters as far as considering what the founders had in mind, and if there's room for growth (if the art's living) of if there is no room for growth (the art's dead) and what form further growth takes before the art ceases to be traditional.

 

[CuongNhuka]

mariganal, just so you know I mean no offense by what I put and (with all due respect) unless you’re a 6th Dan I think i'm right. See I heard that from a 5th Dan, and we may both be right, or we may both be wrong. Or whatever combination of the two you would like.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

 

[Marginal]

I think the fact that every TKD practitioner that read your attempt at TKD history said "Uh, that's wrong" would indicate that your knowledge of the subject is incorrect.

Can't pull rank by proxy.

 

[terryl965]

mariganal, just so you know I mean no offense by what I put and (with all due respect) unless you’re a 6th Dan I think i'm right. See I heard that from a 5th Dan, and we may both be right, or we may both be wrong. Or whatever combination of the two you would like.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

Dear John just because you are a 5th Dan does not make your point me myself have been doing TKD for over 25 yrs and I;m no aurthority on the history I follow what my Master told me. As you pointed out earlier I know nothing and I'm a 4th Kukkiwon certified been over there and trained while I was there but I know nothing according to you please visit the Kukkiwon wegbsite and see who they contribute for there Art and then we can talk. And by the way grand Master Kim is higher than a 5th and so is Master Jimmy Kim and Master Combe tested at the Kukkiwon for his 6th but they know nothing either right only you, what is your TKD linage if you do not mind answering.
Thanks
Master Stoker

 

[Spookey]

Dear All,


I step in and ask the following questions...

Will someone post a quote by Coungnhuka that spawned the last few comments.

Mr. Coungnhuka,

Can you explain how being a specific rank in Taekwon-Do necessarily gives them more knowledge of the arts history?

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Okay...I'm going to jump in here, if I may.

1. Choi, considered by many the "Founder," ought to be recognized as the greatest early political force in the art. There were a host of other schools other than his, and many of them stayed outside of Choi's organization. He brought a number of them into his fold, however, and largely through his efforts the art grew throughout South Korea. He deserves credit for this...though those who were independent of him need to be acknowledged.

2. Korean martial arts existed for centuries. What we see today, however, are arts far different than those practiced prior to the Japanese occupation at he beginning of the last century. In fact, what we see today in Tae Kwon Do is far different than that practiced thirty years ago.

Regardless, claiming Tae Kwon Do's roots go back thousands of years--as the Kukkiwon web site claims--is really stretching it a bit, and making an appeal to antiquity which it doesn't deserve, and doesn't need.

3. If a person is a 5th dan, that doesn't necessarily mean he knows more history than a 1st dan. Nor does a 6th dan necessarily know more about history than a 5th dan.

4. None of us TKD practitioners in the west have ANY obligation to align ourselves in the petty political squabbles of one Korean organization with another. Nor do we have to assume their nationalistic stance and their resentment of the Japanese (though this resentment is understandable).

And I'll end with some questions...

5. If our master tells us a certain version of history is true...is it true, simply because he's our master? Do we accept without question everything a person in a position of authority gives us? Where do we draw the line?

How much of our self-esteem is derived from our relationship to that person and our acceptance of his doctrines?




Regards,


Steve

 

[terryl965]

Dear All,


I step in and ask the following questions...

Will someone post a quote by Coungnhuka that spawned the last few comments.

Mr. Coungnhuka,

Can you explain how being a specific rank in Taekwon-Do necessarily gives them more knowledge of the arts history?

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

spookey I guess it started when he is not even a TKD'er but tells me I know nothing about a Art that I have persomaaly have been in over 25 yrs. My facts may or may not be true I agree but the Master that I train with and the Kukkiwon has there way of saying and since I'm Kukkiwon certified I will stay with there way of thinking right or wrong they are the governing body atleast one of them. If I affend anybody it is not my way.counghuka I wish you luck in your endevours/
Master Stoker

 

[Marginal]

o.k. i'm probly going to tick off every taekwondoka here, but sae la vie (french for that's life).taekwondo was orginally made by general choi of the south korean army as the disarmed form of combat (a heavly modified version is taught for much the same reason to the armys of most countrys including the u.s.). General Choi was acctuly born in the north, but fled to the south, being himself democratic. when japan took over korea in WWII the japanese goverment out lawed native martial arts, driving most of them to the break of extensoin, and completly destroying tae kwon according to legend. as a way to 'japanese' the koreans, the japanese goverment forced many people to learn japanese martial arts, namely Shotokan Karate-do. when the japanese were forced to leave korea they the karate they had forced the koreans to learn. then when korea split into north and south the southern general used Shotokan as a basis for a knew style. and to give it lagitimicy to his country men he saide it was derived from tae kwon, which he saide the japanese had destroyed. this was not true, in fact tae kwon is still in fact taught, but very few taekwondoka would ever knew. why? since tea kwon is really only taught in north korea. taekwondo became a very well know stlyeand many people began to slack off on their training and taught what they often refered to as "inproved taekwondo". know then what is really traditional teakwondo? well, outside south korea (since it is a crime in at least south korea to teach taekwondo in the north), nothing really. in south korea, taekwondo. they don't really have the so called improved, or combat style. so why do i say that alot people will get ticked off for saying this? well for any none taekwondoka, most taekwondoka get ticked off if you argue with the lineage of either themselves to general choi, or their stlye to tae kwon. that is why (forgot this part) taekwondo in korea looks differnit, and you also donn't see alot of korean taekwondoka in the oylimpics, since when they spar it's full contact. in fact you don't score a point unless the force of your kick knocks your opponent back 4 inches, or on their butt, i beleive. know the contact is full and you have to move your opponent back so far, i'm just not shure how far.

Spookey, this is what initially prompted my comments on coungnhuka's limited knowledge base.

Going off the ITF's historical information http://www.itf-information.com/information15.htm his version is a bit off.

 

[Spookey]

Dear Sir,

I am a Taekwon-Doin of the teachings of General Choi Hong Hi. My Instructor was certified by the Oh Do Kwan, Chung Do Kwan, and ITF. That being said I am vigorously pro-active in regards to the Chang Hon Taekwon-Do!

That being said (with loyalty to that which Choi Sabum gave selflesslyto my family) I can rightfully say that General Choi spoke freely of "bastardization" of the art.

Originally, after having read only portions of your posts I thought I might find myself allied with you regarding your thinking. Pretty much everyone here is aware of my opinion regarding Taekwon-Do. That being said, I am greatly disappointed in the quoted post I have just read. Why you might ask? Because half truths and variations from fact are what have created the political situation that our art is surrounded by!

then when korea split into north and south the southern general used Shotokan as a basis for a knew style. and to give it lagitimicy to his country men he saide it was derived from tae kwon, which he saide the japanese had destroyed. this was not true, in fact tae kwon is still in fact taught, but very few taekwondoka would ever knew. why? since tea kwon is really only taught in north korea.

General Choi freely stated that he as a child studied TaeKyon which disputes the comment that it was "destroyed"...TaeKyon today is growing ever more popular throughout Korea! (www.taekkyonkorea.com) and much media is available from Turtle Press! Thus disputing the comments of it only existing in the north!

well, outside south korea (since it is a crime in at least south korea to teach taekwondo in the north), nothing really. in south korea, taekwondo. they don't really have the so called improved, or combat style. so why do i say that alot people will get ticked off for saying this? well for any none taekwondoka, most taekwondoka get ticked off if you argue with the lineage of either themselves to general choi, or their stlye to tae kwon. that is why (forgot this part) taekwondo in korea looks differnit, and you also donn't see alot of korean taekwondoka in the oylimpics

Not a year ago the ITF held a World Championship in South Korea. Also, the North Korean Demo Team of the ITF preformed in South Korea for many dignitaries. In exchange the Kukkiwon held an exhibition in the DPRK.

Regarding the Olympics...the head of the Olympic Taekwon-Do commission is based in South Korea. The exhibition of the sport was performed in South Korea, and to date the Republic of Korea possess the most metal holders of any other countries. They even have full time universities dedicated to Taekwon-Do which promote some of the strongest Olympic fighter / players in the world!

If you are going to tell it...tell it right!

TAEKWON!
SpOOkeY

(PS. If you want to know what im all about, read the sign off below!)

 

[Marginal]

http://sonkal.taekwondo.cz/videa/13/TKD_ITF_in_Seoul_part.I.wmv
http://sonkal.taekwondo.cz/videa/13/TKD_ITF_in_Seoul_part.II.wmv

The aforementioned N Korean demonstration.

 

[Spookey]

To All,

I appreciate the sincere intentions of those that contribute to this forum. There is always going to be differences of opinion. Those different views will generally both be related to certain historical actions that have contributed to the individuals opinion or conclusion on the subject.

Personally, I believe that General Choi's core group (including Nam Tae Hi, Han Cha Kyo, Rya Young Chul, etc.) were the first to create a system of techniques which differentiate from Karate-Do. Furthermore, I believe that when General Choi and his core group left the Republic of Korea in the late 1960's that the Kukkiwon came along and created yet a continuing variation. Thus we have an art evolving in two seperate directions. Thus creating Taekwon-Do (A) and Tae Kwon Do (B). I feel there will always be a connection that cannot be seperated. Why? Many of the instructors from the original five kwans later served in the ROK military and became instructors of the Oh Do Kwan. Later they would split and join respectively the ITF, WTF, Kukkiwon, GTF, and other organizations as well as some teaching independent of overhead. Thus the forerunners of Taekwon-Do (Tang Soo Do and Karate-Do) became Taekwon-Do (A & B). As most first and second generation instructors full under one of the two doctrine.

I apologize if I sounded arrogant in my previous post. My soul intention is to promote Taekwon-Do. Therefore, I find it necessary to tell the facts as they are, regardless of which doctrine you proclaim and express. First there was no Taekwon-Do, then there was one Taekwon-Do...evolution saw another seperation in the 1970's with the founding of the Kukkiwon. It is time for history to repeat itself and for there to be one Taekwon-Do. Not necessarily a unified cirricullum or one single organization or governing body, but one mutual respect between all Taekwon-Doin!

Formally, I call upon all Taekwon-Doin (both instructors and students) to unify in a since of mutual respect for one another regardless of ideology or doctrine. Help be a positive part in the continuing evolution of Taekwon-Do. This is the only way to preserve the art!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

 

[terryl965]

To All,

I appreciate the sincere intentions of those that contribute to this forum. There is always going to be differences of opinion. Those different views will generally both be related to certain historical actions that have contributed to the individuals opinion or conclusion on the subject.

Personally, I believe that General Choi's core group (including Nam Tae Hi, Han Cha Kyo, Rya Young Chul, etc.) were the first to create a system of techniques which differentiate from Karate-Do. Furthermore, I believe that when General Choi and his core group left the Republic of Korea in the late 1960's that the Kukkiwon came along and created yet a continuing variation. Thus we have an art evolving in two seperate directions. Thus creating Taekwon-Do (A) and Tae Kwon Do (B). I feel there will always be a connection that cannot be seperated. Why? Many of the instructors from the original five kwans later served in the ROK military and became instructors of the Oh Do Kwan. Later they would split and join respectively the ITF, WTF, Kukkiwon, GTF, and other organizations as well as some teaching independent of overhead. Thus the forerunners of Taekwon-Do (Tang Soo Do and Karate-Do) became Taekwon-Do (A & B). As most first and second generation instructors full under one of the two doctrine.

I apologize if I sounded arrogant in my previous post. My soul intention is to promote Taekwon-Do. Therefore, I find it necessary to tell the facts as they are, regardless of which doctrine you proclaim and express. First there was no Taekwon-Do, then there was one Taekwon-Do...evolution saw another seperation in the 1970's with the founding of the Kukkiwon. It is time for history to repeat itself and for there to be one Taekwon-Do. Not necessarily a unified cirricullum or one single organization or governing body, but one mutual respect between all Taekwon-Doin!

Formally, I call upon all Taekwon-Doin (both instructors and students) to unify in a since of mutual respect for one another regardless of ideology or doctrine. Help be a positive part in the continuing evolution of Taekwon-Do. This is the only way to preserve the art!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

Very well put spookey, we all should try and get along we all belong to TKD in one way or another.
Master Stoker

 

[Miles]

I apologize if I sounded arrogant in my previous post. My soul intention is to promote Taekwon-Do. Therefore, I find it necessary to tell the facts as they are, regardless of which doctrine you proclaim and express. First there was no Taekwon-Do, then there was one Taekwon-Do...evolution saw another seperation in the 1970's with the founding of the Kukkiwon. It is time for history to repeat itself and for there to be one Taekwon-Do. Not necessarily a unified cirricullum or one single organization or governing body, but one mutual respect between all Taekwon-Doin!

Formally, I call upon all Taekwon-Doin (both instructors and students) to unify in a since of mutual respect for one another regardless of ideology or doctrine. Help be a positive part in the continuing evolution of Taekwon-Do. This is the only way to preserve the art!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

Spookey, no need to apologize! Those of us who have read your prior posts did not confuse your intention-we did not see "arrogance" as much as we saw "passion." Which is a good thing.

There is only 1 Taekwondo. Just as it is a natural law that things go from a disorderly state to an orderly state, Taekwondo is unifying all of the umbrellas. Just look at what has happened within the last few years with the ITF-NK and the WTF. Once there is cooperation at the sport-level, there will be increased cooperation (read "unification") at the curriculum level...

Miles

 

[Spookey]

Dear Sir,

The comrodary we have shared over the course or discource of many threads is specifically the respect that I am speaking of. We come from the farthest opposite ends of the TKD spectrum. You promote the Kukkiwon doctrine while promote the doctrine of CHang Hon. The difference is literally as different as black and white.

We have discussed, debated, and disputed most portions of the history and foundation of our art and stand at opposite ends of the spectrum. However, we have never created a since of disrespect amongst each other. I believe we could share conversation or training time with nothing more than the utmost respect and genuin interest regarding the topic.

Why therefore is it so hard for Taekwon-Doin to respect each other as a whole?

I believe as long as you promote your cirricullum with honesty that you are deserving of respect.

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

 

[Miles]

Thank you Sir!

I feel the same way. I love to argue and discuss (heck, I do it for a living , but at the end of the day, all we can hope to do is give others a glimpse into our own perspectives.

Take Care,

Miles