Traditional MA's flowery impractical techniques

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by DaveB, Sep 11, 2018.

  1. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    Inspired by Bullsherdog.

    We hear a lot about TMA being full.of impractical, flowery, unrealistic and straight BS techniques and methods.

    For this thread I'd like to try to list them and the problems with them and yes, if anyone can actually use said bs techniques the defence of them would also be good.
     
  2. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    Unfortunately this is subjective. No one will ever admit their own style has flowery BS fluff in it. But they can point out in a heartbeat all the stuff in every other style.
     
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  3. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    My belief is that many, especially in the various forms are "lost" techniques. When incorporated, the teachers knew them and passed them on to students at what the teachers considered the appropriate time. Somehow the meanings were lost, and the then current teachers, not wanting to defend moves they didn't understand, called them "art."
     
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  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I wandered across this looking for something else. May as well bang it in here.

    And it is straight up BS in a whole heap of ways. But mostly it is because of the validation method.



    Correct feedback is a major contributor to a technique that works and one that doesn't.
     
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  5. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    The actual set up is fine but what shes doing is bs. She didnt throw a single strike and she put herself against the wall a number of times
     
  6. Hanzou

    Hanzou Senior Master

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    This never gets old:



    Waaay too much work to (incorrectly) counter a guard.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
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  7. dvcochran

    dvcochran Black Belt

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    I have always knew some one step techniques would not work for me and I would never try them as SD.
     
  8. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    You have predetermined one-steps?

    As far as I know, our one-steps are 'open' - you know who is the attacker and sometimes whether they're going to use hand or foot, but that's it...


    As to the subject of the op, I can think of quite a few techniques (both offensive and defensive) that just wouldn't sensibly work as described/taught unless a very specific set of unusual circumstances are met, but that are actually quite practical if used differently.
     
  9. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I would not look to Bullsherdog for inspiration.
     
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  10. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    I believe there is far more misunderstanding or lacking of knowing of 'when and how' to apply techniques vs being bs techniques. There may well be some but applying techniques at the wrong time, wrong range, to the wrong parts of the opponent's body will make them just plain wrong.
     
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  11. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    If you look at pre-arranged/pre-determined one steps as drills and principles rather than “this is exactly how you defend yourself,” they make significantly more sense and are significantly more useful. They (should) teach proper distance, timing, footwork, where to block, which block to use, target selection, and which techniques will be most effective at those targets.

    Teaching students to counter a straight punch that’s held out while the attacker has his way with him is fine for beginners. Once they’re comfortable with that, it’s time to move on to increased resistance and unknown types of attacks.

    Too many people see one steps and think the entire system sucks because that’s not how fights go. Too many teachers teach them without either understanding what they truly are or don’t explain that they’re just drills because they assume the students are aware of it.

    We do a lot of prearranged stuff in our organization. My teacher does a good job of conveying their true purpose, although he could say it a little more often to the newer students.
     
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  12. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    Thanks for sharing that one. It definitely made my day. I wonder if the woman being tested thinks she can actually fend off 5 attackers at the same time.

    Maybe she should watch the video and realize that they took turns rather than ganging up on her. And they didn’t try to hold on when she countered. And no one hit hard enough to make her hit the deck and have the barrage of kicks from the circle that would’ve been there if she pissed 5 people off enough to actually get jumped.

    Nah, she’s a badass that can fend of 5 people.

    At least she’s trying. That’s better than sitting on the couch and watching tv or watching YouTube videos and trying to create her own Isiah90 system where she’s getting shot with nerf guns and being hit with imaginary melee weapons.

    Edit: then again, she’s being attacked by an imaginary mob, so pick your poison here. At least she’s getting a workout and experiencing the adrenaline dump.
     
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  13. Martial D

    Martial D Master of Arts

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    Edit: I do realize they don't use these sorts of moves in sanda or tkd tourneys, but these are the sorts of flowery movements I believe OP was alluding to.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
  14. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    There’s no flowery nor ineffective techniques in traditional MA. You guys are just stupid for thinking otherwise.

    Exhibit A:


    That one NEVER gets old.
     
  15. Hanzou

    Hanzou Senior Master

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    She's also a black belt, which is scary in of itself.
     
  16. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    Part of it is how the technique is done. I teach at least 3 ways to do the spinning hook kick in Taekwondo:

    1. For beginners to get used to the motion, I just tell them "do a back kick and then spin all the way back". It looks terrible, it serves no practical purpose, but it's a training tool used to get people the gross motor skills to do the kick.
    2. For sparring, we teach a faster, whiplike motion designed to quickly tag the head for 4 points.
    3. For demonstration, we teach a slower kick which focuses on the flow of the spin and the extension of the leg, as the only purpose is to look good.
    I think the same applies to a lot of techniques. You have lots of possible applications:
    • Basic training of gross motor skills
    • Isolated training of specific muscle groups
    • Point sparring or set-up moves designed to quickly tag an opponent
    • Contact sparring or self-defense moves designed to KO an opponent
    • Demonstration moves designed to look good in a choreographed fight or a technical demonstration
    I was asking my demo team students what the practical application the 540 kick was. None of them could come up with the right answer. "Self defense?" No, it's too slow for that. "Sparring?" No, in sparring you need to be even faster, so definitely too slow. The reason, I told them "It looks cool!" It's not a practical skill and it was never meant to be. It's just a difficult technique to learn, and once you learn it, you can show off.
     
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  17. Mitlov

    Mitlov Green Belt

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    Those are neither "unrealistic" nor "BS." They are an athletic performance art, designed intentionally to be an athletic performance art, and everyone in them knows full well that they're an athletic performance art. Nothing in those performances was meant to be a practical way of fighting off a mugger, and every single performer in those videos knows that.
     
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  18. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    I get that they're drills, that wasn't my point though.

    We start with predetermined 3 step - 3x same attack and same defence, finish with set counter.

    Then 2 step - 2 different attacks and defences, plus counter again.

    Our 1 step isn't set though, because it's supposed to be that little bit closer to "real". So while you know there's an attack on the way, you don't know how, where or when.

    3 and 2 are more about distance, timing and getting to know what might work where - 1 step is more reactionary and really highlights whether you've considered what might work where or whether you're just going to middle block everything and hope it catches ;)
     
  19. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    What are your thoughts on this approach for kids vs. adults?
     
  20. marques

    marques Master Black Belt

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    They exist because they sell (club subscriptions, movies...); and they are BS until someone make them work. (Overeem “karate kid kick” comes to my mind.)
     

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