Traditional MA's flowery impractical techniques

[FriedRice]

Inspired by Bullsherdog.

We hear a lot about TMA being full.of impractical, flowery, unrealistic and straight BS techniques and methods.

For this thread I'd like to try to list them and the problems with them and yes, if anyone can actually use said bs techniques the defence of them would also be good.

1. Horse stance = your nuts are wide open

 

[JR 137]

What are your thoughts on this approach for kids vs. adults?

Are we really teaching kids how to fight, or are we teaching them motor movement and enjoying training so that they have a solid foundation when they’re old enough to train as “adults?”

Either way, they can learn the prearranged stuff as principles rather than textbook responses. Depending on the age and maturity level, of course. There’s a big difference between 4, 6, 8, and 10 year olds. They’re all kids, but that’s about it. None of them should be training exactly like the other groups in a perfect world. Unfortunately, the 6, 8 and 10 year olds usually get put in the same class.

 

[FriedRice]

I wandered across this looking for something else. May as well bang it in here.

And it is straight up BS in a whole heap of ways. But mostly it is because of the validation method.

Correct feedback is a major contributor to a technique that works and one that doesn't.

Damn, they're all black belts.

But just like what I told you guys that only women, hot chicks & weaker men do these kinds of SD classes and you'd never see this many women in an average MMA gym....just no old people here because the fitness level seems legit.

 

[skribs]

Are we really teaching kids how to fight, or are we teaching them motor movement and enjoying training so that they have a solid foundation when they’re old enough to train as “adults?”

Either way, they can learn the prearranged stuff as principles rather than textbook responses. Depending on the age and maturity level, of course. There’s a big difference between 4, 6, 8, and 10 year olds. They’re all kids, but that’s about it. None of them should be training exactly like the other groups in a perfect world. Unfortunately, the 6, 8 and 10 year olds usually get put in the same class.

We have 4-7, 8-12, and 13+ (oldest was 78) to start. After yellow belt the classes are less split 4-12 and 13+. By red belt its usually more like 7-14 and 13+, though.

 

[drop bear]

Damn, they're all black belts.

But just like what I told you guys that only women, hot chicks & weaker men do these kinds of SD classes and you'd never see this many women in an average MMA gym....just no old people here because the fitness level seems legit.

Your average girl can't manhandle 5 experienced people in a MMA gym though.

So their system must be better for self defense.

 

[pdg]

Damn, they're all black belts.

But just like what I told you guys that only women, hot chicks & weaker men do these kinds of SD classes and you'd never see this many women in an average MMA gym....just no old people here because the fitness level seems legit.

Does being older always equal being unfit in your world?

 

[dvcochran]

You have predetermined one-steps?

As far as I know, our one-steps are 'open' - you know who is the attacker and sometimes whether they're going to use hand or foot, but that's it...


As to the subject of the op, I can think of quite a few techniques (both offensive and defensive) that just wouldn't sensibly work as described/taught unless a very specific set of unusual circumstances are met, but that are actually quite practical if used differently.

Well yea, we have 35 "predetermined" one-step techniques we practice to learn muscle memory, power, etc... Repetition is where you really engrain the action. That is how you react without having to stop and think during an actual encounter. We practice full speed & power if that answers your question.

 

[drop bear]

Does being older always equal being unfit in your world?

Regarding fitness you should be able to go at that pace for basically forever.

It is not like they were going very hard.

 

[WaterGal]

My belief is that many, especially in the various forms are "lost" techniques. When incorporated, the teachers knew them and passed them on to students at what the teachers considered the appropriate time. Somehow the meanings were lost, and the then current teachers, not wanting to defend moves they didn't understand, called them "art."

I think that's probably usually true. What's "art" in the context of martial art, if it's not something that actually teaches you something? The moves may or may not be actual fighting techniques (for example, they may be might instead be meant to teach certain body mechanics or improve balance or whatever), but it seems unlikely that a style's founders would just throw some artibitrary hand-waving in their curriculum. It's just that they, or their students, or their students' students, may not have done a good job explaining the actual purpose of the technique (or they may have intentionally obfuscated it to make sure their students couldn't open a competing school or whatever), so it gets forgotten and passed along "just because".

On the other hand, I think sometimes you have certain moves that may have a cultural rather than martial meaning. For example, in KKW TKD, in the form Keumgang, you have Keumgang Makki from crane stance. This is where you stand on one foot and do a high block and a low block at the same time. At Keumgang Mountain, there is apparently an ancient stone carving or statue of a guardian spirit in this pose. Now, this pose is good for training your balance, but presumably it was used in the form largely because of the cultural symbolism. (For added symbolism, the form traces the shape of the Chinese character for mountain.)

 

[WaterGal]

The problem is that there are things in (almost?) every art that isn't directly applicable, for instance the ever popular sitting (horse/riding/whatever) stance while punching from the hip.

That's not exactly an effective technique in itself, might not "use it in a fight", so it gets maligned.

But it's not meant for direct application - does that mean it should be scrapped? Plenty say yes, scrap it - I'm not one of them...

I find that this pose helps to teach students to use their core while punching (or doing other upper body techniques). Kids often strike and block by just raising their arm up and using their arm strength, which of course is totally ineffective. But I also explain that, and tell them not to do it that way when they're actually punching someone.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I wandered across this looking for something else. May as well bang it in here.

And it is straight up BS in a whole heap of ways. But mostly it is because of the validation method.

Correct feedback is a major contributor to a technique that works and one that doesn't.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This never gets old:

Waaay too much work to (incorrectly) counter a guard.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There’s no flowery nor ineffective techniques in traditional MA. You guys are just stupid for thinking otherwise.

Exhibit A:

That one NEVER gets old.

Ok. I tried not to laugh on this one but failed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It would probably be better to highlight the flowery parts of a practical martial arts. It would be more meaningful. For example. This is a Jow Ga staff form. The downward flicking of the hand is flowery. It has no practical Martial Arts use. It is said to be a taunt. Everything else is practical.

 

[FriedRice]

Does being older always equal being unfit in your world?

Most old guys like yourself just can't handle the cardio level + roughness of MMA gyms, that's just the truth....unless they train a lot. How old are you?

 

[FriedRice]

This is ineffective:

Not only that it's ineffective, but those Ninja shoes probably makes your feet stink.

 

[FriedRice]

It would probably be better to highlight the flowery parts of a practical martial arts. It would be more meaningful. For example. This is a Jow Ga staff form. The downward flicking of the hand is flowery. It has no practical Martial Arts use. It is said to be a taunt. Everything else is practical.

I will admit, I do want to learn this though....with all that flowery jenk poured on thick. Mostly because it looks cool as heck with the staff. I'd probably want to do some flowery broadsword too....not even joking. The Kung-Fu guy I talked to did say that I'd need to learn forms because it's the basis of all 'dis that translates to weapons.

This brings me back to my childhood days, where we would mimick Run Run Shaw movies.

 

[pdg]

Well yea, we have 35 "predetermined" one-step techniques we practice to learn muscle memory, power, etc... Repetition is where you really engrain the action. That is how you react without having to stop and think during an actual encounter. We practice full speed & power if that answers your question.

It wasn't supposed to come across as 'judgemental' as it appears upon re-reading...

Is your one-step as I assume - one attack, one defence?

Does the defender do a follow up counter attack, and if so is that pulled or also full speed / power?

 

[pdg]

Regarding fitness you should be able to go at that pace for basically forever.

It is not like they were going very hard.

I must admit, I didn't watch the video

 

[pdg]

Most old guys like yourself just can't handle the cardio level + roughness of MMA gyms, that's just the truth....unless they train a lot. How old are you?

I'm 41.

Cardio - that might be a challenge on top of tkd, kickboxing, conditioning and practice at home and having a relatively physically demanding job...

Roughness - if it's everyone out to hurt each other then honestly it sounds like too much hassle, if nothing else I'm self employed so if I can't go to work I don't get paid.


That said, I recommend you add a qualifier when you say "cardio level + roughness of MMA gyms" - I'm pretty sure I could go to an MMA gym near me and not have much trouble keeping up with their "family session, all welcome"...

Your assumption that all MMA gyms are hardcore is as bad as someone saying tkd doesn't have any punches.