Towards a Minimum Hapkido Standard

[glad2bhere]

Sorry, Stuart, but as long as you keep using terms like 'better" this is going to continue to go over your head.

Its NOT a matter of being "better".

Neither one of these approaches are "gooder" than the other one. Practitioners are not somehow worse for having only studied one art and not the other. Yu sool and Hapkiyusool are variances of the same art the same way any other possible activity would be an equal subset of some greater whole. You seem to want to make one superior to the other. I have tried both and I can only say that in MY experience what "I" found. Someone else may try both and determine that hapkiyusool is way too much trouble to learn when they are doing essentially the same technique at the yu sool level and it works just fine. I really don't know how to make this any clearer. What is it about what I am saying that causes you to want to elevate one item above the other? Is it that I characterize hapkiyusool as a "refinement"? A refinement does not immediately make something better. Gold is Gold. Purchasing 24k vs 18k is something a person does for themselves. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

Hi guys...

If you check out some Aikido or Daito Ryu they still teach many principles and they they apply in real life that seems to have been left out of the Hapkido

I am just going to focus on that,from an Aikidoka standpoint. What I picked up when making comparisons(which is never good to do) is what I think Hapkiyusool actually makes use of. Aikidoish "spirals" and usage of timing and shikaku(dead angle) all serve to help the technique along,in a fluid and controlled way. This is not meant to start a Aikido vs. Hapkido flame war,just an observation I have made.

The difference lies not so much in technique,but in the sub areas of technique. Differences in timing,angles,and hand position make for a generally better flow w/o using disruption strikes. At the Aikido Dojo I trained at,we were taught the strikes contained in the waza to allow us to make choices.

So it really comes down to a matter of your perception skills,and technical "linking" or chaining together to create that instance and not be forced to "take it as it comes". Just a couple of thoughts. As usual...I could be way off with this one.

 

[glad2bhere]

No, Paul, I don't think you are off by very much at all. I have only a passing familiarity with Aikido but I don't think a Tomiki practitioner represents what they do as essentially being "better" than a disciple of the late Mochizuki, yes? Or might a person who follows an early Ueyshiba tradition (which is arguably more "authoritative") somehow "better" than a person who follows a tradition posited by Ueyshiba just before he died? I think not, do you?

But in the larger picture I have a more sizable axe to grind here. One could represent that disciples of Choi Yong Sul (especially here in the States) have continually called other traditions into question while representing the "authenticity" of their own brand of Hapkido arts. Where has this devisivness gotten us? Certainly the leadership enjoys revenues coming their particular way, but the typical practitioner remains untouched. We are not particularly a disloyal lot on this side of the Pacific, but I think one could be excused for tiring of this mean-spirited and small-minded bickering that has gone on for the last 50 years.

Now I have to tell you that I am not the stuff of which leaders are made. People like Rudy and JR are Waaay ahead of me. But two things I know I can do well. One, I can be an awfully supportive and appreciative follower to the right leader. Secondly I am in a place in my life where I am no longer willing to blindly participate in one more devisive activity for the Hapkido community. For sometime in the past I felt as though I needed some special authority to speak up on important matters. Then I "discovered" that people of inordinately questionable vitae could say outrageous stuff and be heard--- even when it was stone damaging to the Hapkido community.

So f*** a bunch of "authority".

I can't "make" other people be more cooperative or tolerant, but I also don't have to sit around quietly while they waste my life.
Thats how this string got started.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

I don't think a Tomiki practitioner represents what they do as essentially being "better" than a disciple of the late Mochizuki, yes? Or might a person who follows an early Ueyshiba tradition (which is arguably more "authoritative") somehow "better" than a person who follows a tradition posited by Ueyshiba just before he died?

No Bruce. Not in most instances. I'm not going to drag Aikido's baggage in here! There's enough taking up space already! Seriously though,I have been to many Aikido Dojo,to compare first hand the different "styles",and I will say that some schools are definitely more fluid and "realistic" in their approach than others. But what MA couldn't you say that about?

I think one could be excused for tiring of this mean-spirited and small-minded bickering that has gone on for the last 50 years.

Agreed. That's why I see a common standard as helping Hapkido instead of hindering it. I also like to think of myself as a loyal Hapkidoin,and would definitely get behind any effort for unity. Hapkido needs it.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

First of all Hapki-Yu Sool and Hapkido are one and the same! I understand why Bruce uses the two different terms but they are one and the same. DJN Choi taught a Martial Art, Hapkido/HapkiYuSool. The difference is in the execution of the techniques. DJN Choi was against using strikes at the start of training because of people relying to heavily on strikes and kicks. DJN Choi did however use strikes and kicks but in his style of teaching those techniques were considerd more advanced training.

The problem with creating a stadered Hapkido is that there are not a whole lot of curicculums to choose from, what I mean by this is that the only curicculums that would be qualified would be those from the Choi liniage. Now GM Ji's Sin Moo is a different deal IMO and that would have to be treated as such. Both are good just different.

Take care

www.millersmudo.com

 

[American HKD]

First of all Hapki-Yu Sool and Hapkido are one and the same! I understand why Bruce uses the two different terms but they are one and the same. DJN Choi taught a Martial Art, Hapkido/HapkiYuSool. The difference is in the execution of the techniques. DJN Choi was against using strikes at the start of training because of people relying to heavily on strikes and kicks. DJN Choi did however use strikes and kicks but in his style of teaching those techniques were considerd more advanced training.

The problem with creating a stadered Hapkido is that there are not a whole lot of curicculums to choose from, what I mean by this is that the only curicculums that would be qualified would be those from the Choi liniage. Now GM Ji's Sin Moo is a different deal IMO and that would have to be treated as such. Both are good just different.

Take care

www.millersmudo.com

Dear Todd or anybody

When I see films of Daito Ryu or Sensei Kondo, to me it looks more like Aikido than the Hapkido I learned or have seen anybody else do for that matter.

Another question is when I've seen films of Aiki-jujutsu from people like Miqueal Ibarra (sp?) it looks very much like Hapkido? Although Master Ibarra says his system is from Daito Ryu

Any insights into this there seems to be fairly big differences here?

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Dear Todd or anybody

When I see films of Daito Ryu or Sensei Kondo, to me it looks more like Aikido than the Hapkido I learned or have seen anybody else do for that matter.

Another question is when I've seen films of Aiki-jujutsu from people like Miqueal Ibarra (sp?) it looks very much like Hapkido? Although Master Ibarra says his system is from Daito Ryu

Any insights into this there seems to be fairly big differences here?

IMHO Doju Nim Choi's Hapkido was what he learned from his teacher Takeda Sokaku. Kondo Sensei learned from a few Aikido Masters so his DRAJJ would have a more Aikidoish look.

From what I have seen from DJN Choi's longtime student, Hapkido is what DRAJJ would look like in Korea. Some will say it matters what you call an Art but that was not how Takeda or Choi thought.

From every source I have talked with about Choi, Yong Sool "It was his sense and execution of technique that was most impressive" is the number 1 thing you always hear.

More to come.

www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

1.Scoop Kick
Myung: “Inside low scoop kick” (an da re met cha gi)
Suh: “Turn inside heel kick” (ahn koom chi dohl li ki)
Kim: (an da re cha gi )

2.Side Kick
Myung: “Side Kick” (yup cha ki)
Suh: “Side Kick” (yuhp cha ki)
Kim: “Side Kick” (ha dan yop cha gi)

3.Inside Swivel Kick
Myung: “low circle heel kick” (de kum chi met cha dol re ki)
Suh: Not Identified
Kim: (dwee chook bake u ro jji gi)

4.Outside Swivel Kick (“Circle Kick”)
Myung: “Low curve kick” (jok do met cha dol re ki)
Suh: Not Identified
Kim: ( chok do hoo ri gi)


You folks will recognize, I think the first four kicking techniques of the minimal standard which I have made available for your inspection on my website, at least until we can find a more neutral location.

Please notice that I am currently working on Korean equivalents for these techniques. So far the single most common technique is the simple Side Kick (aka:Yop Chagi). I mention this because you will notice that even the Korean for this particular is not universal. I think the "Scoop Kick", is a good representation of what I am running into so far. Curiously just about everyone has this kick but the names are not as close as the Side Kick.

Flipping things over, there are kicks such as the "Front Kick" which not only has a few varioations but is also named the same despite variances in execution. For instance a "Front Kick" is seen to use the toe (which might otherwise be called a "toe kick"), the ball of the foot as well as the top of the foot, and the heel of the foot after the fashion of what I know as a "Front Heel-thrust Kick".

I have investigated both He Young Kimm and Han Jae Ji and both simply use numbers to identify kicks, though, the orders are different (of course). Would anyone like to venture some thoughts on selecting Korean terms to identify the kicks identified for the minimal standard? Perhaps there are TKD or TSD folks who have some thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

When I see films of Daito Ryu or Sensei Kondo, to me it looks more like Aikido than the Hapkido I learned or have seen anybody else do for that matter.
....snip...
Any insights into this there seems to be fairly big differences here?

It's been a while but I'll give it a shot.

Two of the major differences you are probably picking up on is the lack of suwari waza and hanmi handachi in Hapkido. In Hapkido it's true that we have seated techniques,but not from seiza,and usually executed in a static manner..(no shikko)

Hanmi handachi (defender seated,attacker standing) is again present in Hapkido,but in a static, virtually immobile postion again no shikko or knee walking.

I've never seen video of Ibarra Sensei so I couldn't even touch that one.

Another difference is the use of "Sets" in DRAJJ...the sets are a level to be taught in it's entirety before moving on to the next (from Ikkajo to Nikkajo for example) and to deviate from that in any way is comparable to heresy.

As far as comparing other "styles" of Aiki jutsu to each other....well...I think that one should check around say...the Koryu site and see if that "style" is on it...if not I would be a little suspicious of that "style". Some people would say that Aiki jutsu was a dead art until Takeda Sokaku came along...so...all of a sudden we have a gajillion Aiki jutsu schools that seem to be very similar to Hapkido or Aikido for that matter. Even the schools terminology speaks volumes about its' roots,giving clues about the "inheritors" background.

That's my 2 c's.

 

[iron_ox]

It's been a while but I'll give it a shot.

Two of the major differences you are probably picking up on is the lack of suwari waza and hanmi handachi in Hapkido. In Hapkido it's true that we have seated techniques,but not from seiza,and usually executed in a static manner..(no shikko)

Hanmi handachi (defender seated,attacker standing) is again present in Hapkido,but in a static, virtually immobile postion again no shikko or knee walking.

I've never seen video of Ibarra Sensei so I couldn't even touch that one.

Another difference is the use of "Sets" in DRAJJ...the sets are a level to be taught in it's entirety before moving on to the next (from Ikkajo to Nikkajo for example) and to deviate from that in any way is comparable to heresy.

As far as comparing other "styles" of Aiki jutsu to each other....well...I think that one should check around say...the Koryu site and see if that "style" is on it...if not I would be a little suspicious of that "style". Some people would say that Aiki jutsu was a dead art until Takeda Sokaku came along...so...all of a sudden we have a gajillion Aiki jutsu schools that seem to be very similar to Hapkido or Aikido for that matter. Even the schools terminology speaks volumes about its' roots,giving clues about the "inheritors" background.

That's my 2 c's.

Hello all,

My Japanese is a bit rusty, but I have always been taught seated techniques that were both static and dynamic. I have seen and practiced knee walking for many years, and used varients of such in technique often. Is there any other part of the Japanese translation that I missed here?

 

[Paul B]

Nope,Mr. Sogor....that would be my exposure to Hapkido technique talking. I have never seen any seated techniques being taught from seiza or using shikko. I have also never seen it in any books or video...maybe I am looking in the wrong places...lol.

Did you learn shikko and suwari waza from your Hapkido teacher? If so,where did he learn it? The seated techniques I have been shown were from either legs crossed or one leg up.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Nope,Mr. Sogor....that would be my exposure to Hapkido technique talking. I have never seen any seated techniques being taught from seiza or using shikko. I have also never seen it in any books or video...maybe I am looking in the wrong places...lol.

Did you learn shikko and suwari waza from your Hapkido teacher? If so,where did he learn it? The seated techniques I have been shown were from either legs crossed or one leg up.

Dear Paul,

The Jungki Kwan teaches seated techniques from pretty much all ground positions such as legs crossed,kneeling, lying down on back and front. GM Lim learned from DJN Choi, Yong Sul. These techniques are at the 3rd - 6th Dan level. Basicly all the techniques we do from a standing position we do from seated positions. The off-balence is slightly different though. :asian:

www.millersmudo.com

 

[iron_ox]

Nope,Mr. Sogor....that would be my exposure to Hapkido technique talking. I have never seen any seated techniques being taught from seiza or using shikko. I have also never seen it in any books or video...maybe I am looking in the wrong places...lol.

Did you learn shikko and suwari waza from your Hapkido teacher? If so,where did he learn it? The seated techniques I have been shown were from either legs crossed or one leg up.

Hello Paul,

First, Kevin please...again, my Japanese is really rusty, but my "seated techniques" were always done from crossed leg, then taught from a kneeling position (seiza) - we bow in a kneeling position and this was often the "rest" position, so lots of stuff was taught from there. The "shikko" or knee walking we did was mainly done as a transition from kneeling to one knee up, or for moving around or with a falling opponent - I don't think it was as extensive as some of the Japanese schools that I have attended - but we did do knee walking as a warm up, back and forth across the dojang.

To the best of my knowledge, the techniques were all taught to my instructor from his instructor, who was a student of Choi, Yong Sul (this was in the UK). Now that I have come under the instruction of Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo, I saw the same techniques being practiced in Korea, and as I understand it, these are directly from Choi himself as well.

 

[Paul B]

Thanks guys. Well you learn something new everyday! I would really enjoy seeing how you guys do these techniques. Thanks for your answers.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I would really enjoy seeing how you guys do these techniques. Thanks for your answers.

How far are you from Chicago? I am sure Kevin would welcome you in for a training session as would I but I am in NH! :asian:

Take care

www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

OK, so we have talked about DRAJJ and the Hapkido arts for the umpteenth time and decided that they are kinda the same and kinda different. Swell. We should be OK until, what, next week when we do the same dance again?

Does anyone want to respond to post #108 about regarding identifying techniques according to their execution with standard labels in English or Korean, or is this effectively just a gossip line driven by the need to see ones' opinions in print? Need a little help here. My hopes were to use the Internet to kinda pull folks together on a project everyone could pitch-in to. If people are not interested, please let me know. Its not as though I don't have other things to do. I suppose if this string were written under other circumstances folks would be labor-like scholars defining and clarifying their rank and standing. This is an opportunity to show what you can really do with all of that expertise and knowledge your ranks bespeak. Whats going on here?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

1.Scoop Kick
Myung: “Inside low scoop kick” (an da re met cha gi)
Suh: “Turn inside heel kick” (ahn koom chi dohl li ki)
Kim: (an da re cha gi )

OK

2.Side Kick
Myung: “Side Kick” (yup cha ki)
Suh: “Side Kick” (yuhp cha ki)
Kim: “Side Kick” (ha dan yop cha gi)

OK

3.Inside Swivel Kick
Myung: “low circle heel kick” (de kum chi met cha dol re ki)
Suh: Not Identified
Kim: (dwee chook bake u ro jji gi)

We call this a cutting kick because it cuts across like a sickle motion
(with the right foot, direction is right to left using the blade of the foot to hit)

4.Outside Swivel Kick (“Circle Kick”)
Myung: “Low curve kick” (jok do met cha dol re ki)
Suh: Not Identified
Kim: ( chok do hoo ri gi)

Reverse cutting kick (with the right foot, direction is left to right using the heel to hit)

You folks will recognize, I think the first four kicking techniques of the minimal standard which I have made available for your inspection on my website, at least until we can find a more neutral location.

Please notice that I am currently working on Korean equivalents for these techniques. So far the single most common technique is the simple Side Kick (aka:Yop Chagi). I mention this because you will notice that even the Korean for this particular is not universal. I think the "Scoop Kick", is a good representation of what I am running into so far. Curiously just about everyone has this kick but the names are not as close as the Side Kick.

Flipping things over, there are kicks such as the "Front Kick" which not only has a few varioations but is also named the same despite variances in execution. For instance a "Front Kick" is seen to use the toe (which might otherwise be called a "toe kick"), the ball of the foot as well as the top of the foot, and the heel of the foot after the fashion of what I know as a "Front Heel-thrust Kick".

I have investigated both He Young Kimm and Han Jae Ji and both simply use numbers to identify kicks, though, the orders are different (of course). Would anyone like to venture some thoughts on selecting Korean terms to identify the kicks identified for the minimal standard? Perhaps there are TKD or TSD folks who have some thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

See above

 

[glad2bhere]

Yes, and now where do we go to identify a uniform Korean term or uniform English term? I have a different name and you have a different name. How do we reconcile these differences as well as use a term that a Korean national would understand? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Yes, and now where do we go to identify a uniform Korean term or uniform English term? I have a different name and you have a different name. How do we reconcile these differences as well as use a term that a Korean national would understand? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Since these aren't common names like side or round figure what's a more
descriptive term.

Swivel or cutting? Probably sickle kick is the most desciptive I think?

 

[glad2bhere]

So now you and I agree that there will be an Inside Sickle Kick and an Outside Sickle Kick. Do we then transliterate "sickle kick" into Korean or do we work to find a common Korean term for each technique and simply equate the two (IE. American "sickle kick" = Korean "round kick")?

Best Wishes,

Bruce