Rank & Time Tables

[American HKD]

Greetings

Do you think rank after Black Belt 2,3,4,5 etc. is given out too slowly?

Why not a year or two per Dan depending on the person of course?

After you got the basics down the rest come fairly easy!

For example Doju Ji said he dosen't care how old you are or how long you've been in the Art if you know the material you know it end of story.

( I happen to agree with Doju Ji because many people especially Koreans hold back rank on purpose for many reasons such as competetion with thier students, control, ego, etc. )

He also went on to say many of the tradtional kwan masters from Korea got high rank at a young age is not as unusal as we are led to believe!

From that point on with the advent of Asociations rank became a more timely process.

 

[ajs1976]

I'm new to this so I have to ask, what is considered the "normal" amount of time someone has to wait?

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,


Below is the KHF requirements.

Dan level) (Min. terms of training) (Min. Age)

(Begin ¢¡ 1 Dan) ( 1 yr. ) -
(1 Dan ¢¡ 2 Dan) ( 1 yr. ) -
(2 Dan ¢¡ 3 Dan) ( 2 yrs. ) ( 17 yrs. old )
(3 Dan ¢¡ 4 Dan) ( 3 yrs. ) ( 23 yrs. old )
(4 Dan ¢¡ 5 Dan) ( 4 yrs. ) ( 30 yrs. old )
(5 Dan ¢¡ 6 Dan) ( 5 yrs. ) ( 35 yrs. old )
(6 Dan ¢¡ 7 Dan) ( 5 yrs. ) ( 41 yrs. old )
(7 Dan ¢¡ 8 Dan) ( 5 yrs. ) ( 46 yrs. old )
(8 Dan ¢¡ 9 Dan) ( 5 yrs. ) ( 51 yrs. old )

 

[iron_ox]

Greetings

Do you think rank after Black Belt 2,3,4,5 etc. is given out too slowly?

Why not a year or two per Dan depending on the person of course?

After you got the basics down the rest come fairly easy!

For example Doju Ji said he dosen't care how old you are or how long you've been in the Art if you know the material you know it end of story.

( I happen to agree with Doju Ji because many people especially Koreans hold back rank on purpose for many reasons such as competetion with thier students, control, ego, etc. )

He also went on to say many of the tradtional kwan masters from Korea got high rank at a young age is not as unusal as we are led to believe!

From that point on with the advent of Asociations rank became a more timely process.

Hello Stuart,

I agree here, in Korea, grade seems to be given much more on technical merit and simple ability than "time in rank".

 

[howard]

hi stuart,

out of curiosity, does gm ji have a technical curriculum for all of shin mu's dan ranks? in other words, are there formal techniques that you have to demonstrate for each dan rank?

thanks, howard

 

[American HKD]

Howard,

Doju Ji's formal curriculum goes up to 4th Dan although you can learn many variations on each technique past that.

Doju Ji asks you to demonstrate whatever he wants usually during regular class times or seminars. He doesn't conduct formal testing he just evaluates you any time he wants to.

On a diferrent note I gave a test to two students yesterday I knew they would pass before I tested them and in fact they had no warning of the test at all they came in and I said your testing today.

In reality the test was of no consequence at all because I already knew they knew the material, it served only to help the students know thier strong and weak points and put a little pressure on them.

So how important is real formal testing? If you know the stuff everyone can see that during classes, seminars, or other events if you dont people will know that too.

 

[howard]

stuart, thanks for the info.

btw, i agree with your idea of not testing students until you decide they are ready.
regards, howard

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".........For example Doju Ji said he dosen't care how old you are or how long you've been in the Art if you know the material you know it end of story...."

And therein lies the problem. Time is not always just time. And WHAT you know is not always the same from place to place. Let me give you an example.

When I test someone for Level 2, Hapkido they are responsible for 100% of their Level One Material. At Level 3 testing they are responsible for 100% of Level 2 and 50% of Level I. At Level 4 Testing they are responsible for 100% of Level 3, 50% of Level 2 and 25% of Level 1. Get the pattern here?

Ok. Now lets move that up to Black Belt. Lets say a person is going for Fourth Dan. They would be responsible for 100% of 3rd Dan including the Cane techniques and grounded fighting techniques. They would be responsible for 50% of the 2nd Dan techniques including Dan Bong and strike point material. They would be responsible for 25% of 1st Dan Techniques including pressure point work and Soh Bong Techniques. They would be responsible for 12% of Brown, 6% of Blue, 3% of Yellow and 1%of White. Now most people for such a test would focus on 3rd Dan material but as you can see you can't just learn the new stuff but must keep facile on the ever-growing amount of old stuff. I made 4th dan this year. According to kwan criteria I won't even be qualified to test for 5th dan until 2010 when I am 60 y/o. And after that I won't be qualified for 6th dan (should I make 5th Dan) until the year 2017 when I am 67. By that time I should know something in the area 450 unique techniques, be facile with at least five weapons and still be out on the mat teaching (Please God). FWIW.

BTW: I have purposely not included my additional project of prgressing my learning into the area of hapkiyusool. What I am speaking of is only the yu sool level of the Hapkido arts.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

".........For example Doju Ji said he dosen't care how old you are or how long you've been in the Art if you know the material you know it end of story...."

And therein lies the problem. Time is not always just time. And WHAT you know is not always the same from place to place. Let me give you an example.

When I test someone for Level 2, Hapkido they are responsible for 100% of their Level One Material. At Level 3 testing they are responsible for 100% of Level 2 and 50% of Level I. At Level 4 Testing they are responsible for 100% of Level 3, 50% of Level 2 and 25% of Level 1. Get the pattern here?

Ok. Now lets move that up to Black Belt. Lets say a person is going for Fourth Dan. They would be responsible for 100% of 3rd Dan including the Cane techniques and grounded fighting techniques. They would be responsible for 50% of the 2nd Dan techniques including Dan Bong and strike point material. They would be responsible for 25% of 1st Dan Techniques including pressure point work and Soh Bong Techniques. They would be responsible for 12% of Brown, 6% of Blue, 3% of Yellow and 1%of White. Now most people for such a test would focus on 3rd Dan material but as you can see you can't just learn the new stuff but must keep facile on the ever-growing amount of old stuff. I made 4th dan this year. According to kwan criteria I won't even be qualified to test for 5th dan until 2010 when I am 60 y/o. And after that I won't be qualified for 6th dan (should I make 5th Dan) until the year 2017 when I am 67. By that time I should know something in the area 450 unique techniques, be facile with at least five weapons and still be out on the mat teaching (Please God). FWIW.

BTW: I have purposely not included my additional project of prgressing my learning into the area of hapkiyusool. What I am speaking of is only the yu sool level of the Hapkido arts.

Best Wishes,

Bruce,

Ridiculous

These requirements you stated are ridiculous maybe that’s a type of commercialism we find today to hold people back in some sense.
In academics that wouldn't even work, when you graduated college did they test you on your high school stuff? Or for your Doctorate did you re-test for your bachelors and masters degrees?

Do you think for a minute Hwang Sik Myung went through that? I'll answer for you NO!

That's why I'm saying here many people are kept back over longer time periods for either academic reasons, commercial reasons, ego, or other things.

Master Ji has it RIGHT and I felt the same way for many years but not many Masters will admit it for their own personal egos or pocket books.

Sorry Bruce you got it wrong here buddy!

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

I didn't say you had to agree. Most people I know would not subscribe to such criteria and thats OK. If its not your cup of tea then I can live with that. What I find is that such an arrangement continues to consistently present me with an evergrowing organization of challenges.

Now to answer your question, the fact is that what I have outlined is EXACTLY what the academic approach uses and that is a big reason why I use this model. As you move through the academic model you are most consistently held accountable for that material most recent to your education and less accountable for material farther and farther back. No matter what math you are testing in, at some level you are still required to know 2+2. Of course, if you are doing Calculus maybe its less important than your first year of Algebra. I would point out that just because you become so accustomed to the system that you don't recognize it for what it is doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I would also point out that to ignore such a model results in some pretty bleak altrernatives. Where for instance does your study in Hapkido go when you make 1st dan--- now 2nd dan--- now 3rd dan.
I hear over and over again about how people get so far in their training that there is eventually no where left to go. Lets say you start Hapkido at 20 y/o and make 10th dan by 45. Where is UP from there?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[sifu Adams]

I think there should be merit behind the belt. I have been to tournament where a student was Awarded his/her 2nd, 3rd, 4th degree black based off the time only. I spent 2 hours doing 56 forms and sparing for 20 min afterwards just to get my 4th degree. When I was done I knew I had been tested. We have to have a 5 weapon and 5 empty hand as well as two internals be per rank of black with a minim of 2 years per rank. however we are tested over everything we know even the white belt material.

 

[American HKD]

Bruce,

Last thought on this.

Memorizing X number of techniques is not very important in higher stages like 2nd, 3rd 4th etc. Granted you may want to remember vast numbers of techniques to teach but that's for an entirely different reason.

Bruce if you continue to train you wont forget the Gup stuff (2+2) or the higher dan stuff. In fact you'll most likey use the lower rank stuff more than the higher dan stuff.

If your teacher is reputable you won't get a higher rank if you don't improve on the previous material that's a given in my book.

But the real bottom line for me is at some point:

It's much more important to understand the principles and make the techniques second nature through training. When that happens memorization becomes very unnecessary.

When you need your skills you won't have time to remember a response it hopefully will just happen naturally without thought, that's what your working for.

FWIW that's what I feel is important once someone has a good understanding of the basics.

 

[sifu Adams]

I guess you would have to see the katas. we are learning and our theros come from the katas. ex. we have praing matis trap, blitz, thrust, and fist. each of the katas teach you new things. they teach better combonation and angle of attacks. some teac you ground fighting, grapping, throws, how to use weapons bladed not bladed, sticks, knives ect.... I think if you were to limmit your self with the tech. how would you ever learn new ones?

 

[American HKD]

I think there should be merit behind the belt. I have been to tournament where a student was Awarded his/her 2nd, 3rd, 4th degree black based off the time only. I spent 2 hours doing 56 forms and sparing for 20 min afterwards just to get my 4th degree. When I was done I knew I had been tested. We have to have a 5 weapon and 5 empty hand as well as two internals be per rank of black with a minim of 2 years per rank. however we are tested over everything we know even the white belt material.

Dear Sifu,

I'm sure your teacher knew you were capable before you tested hence what was the test really for? To make you feel good about yourself, to show to others what you acomplished?

To me you earned your rank before the test in the years of training.

Thats the real test years of dedication to your Art!

 

[sifu Adams]

We have only 5 who have tested for 4th. 3 made it. why the others were not ready the knew they had the "time" in but not ready to test. time is not what makes a black belt. we (me and you ) can learn a kata on the same day, I may work on my kata everyday for the next 5 years. you may copy the notes and put the tape on a self get it back out in 5 year and review it for 6 months and try to test. who do you think learnded the most from the kata and who do you think will pass the test?

 

[glad2bhere]

Memorizing X number of techniques is not very important in higher stages like 2nd, 3rd 4th etc. Granted you may want to remember vast numbers of techniques to teach but that's for an entirely different reason.

Bruce if you continue to train you wont forget the Gup stuff (2+2) or the higher dan stuff. In fact you'll most likey use the lower rank stuff more than the higher dan stuff.

If your teacher is reputable you won't get a higher rank if you don't improve on the previous material that's a given in my book.

But the real bottom line for me is at some point:

It's much more important to understand the principles and make the techniques second nature through training. When that happens memorization becomes very unnecessary.

When you need your skills you won't have time to remember a response it hopefully will just happen naturally without thought, that's what your working for.

FWIW that's what I feel is important once someone has a good understanding of the basics.

My guess is that you and I simply have different values about what we do or something. I can't quite put my finger on it because I don't hear what I am saying as different from you. I don't hear myself saying that basics aren't important. What I think I am saying is that those basics are constantly carried deeper and deeper into the art. Its not just a matter of learning more techniques. Rather, does one see the Hapkido principles and make them understood at simple levels? How about at intermediate levels? Higher levels? Free-form? In hyung? With weapons? In interpersonal relationships? In pressure point work? In strike point work? In groundwork? How does relating to these principles change when you go from 30 to 40? 40 to 50? 50 to 60?

I guess I don't see Hapkido as a phys ed course, or combative gymnastic. I view is as a way of life and a way of living and I think that is what I try to assess when I test someone. I suspect thats what my teacher is trying to assess when he tests me. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Bruce,

I'll try to be clearer here.
Memorizing large numbers of techniques for it's own sake is a waste of time and effort in the Dan levels IMO.

So many of our techniques are variations or the same skills is used over and over in different places.

To understand the technique fully and how to cross apply it from a hold, punch, kick, etc. means only learning it once!
Memorizing where it comes up in 10 different places is not needed.

That's what I mean for the most part.

Moreover my type of thinking will greatly reduce the inflated number of techniques there actually are in HKD making it easier to learn, less to memorize, quicker to advance in the dan levels once the basic principles are learned.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Stuart,

I agree here. I teach that there is a clear division between technique and application. Technique (good ones) have multiple applications from different situations, grabs, etc. - therefore the best way to learn is, in my opinion, strong knowledge of technique.

 

[glad2bhere]

My agreement with you both comes out of an odd place, so please hear what I am going to say clearer as I mean no disrespect to my teacher.

The World Hapkido Federation has a set curriculum and I don't think that there are any (many?) techniques that you would not recognize from your own practice. Now, I must say that what Kevin says is probably symptomatic of the WHF curriculum in that a clear distinction between the basic technique and its applications have been blurred.

Earlier you may remember that I said that by 5th dan I could expect to know about 450 techniques. That includes kicks, punches, blocks, parries, chokes, pins, throws projections --- the whole bit including the respective weapons. There are about 50 unique techniques to each rank so 9 ranks times 50=450. Now how did I do that. Well, what I am talking about is the "academic approach" to that same WHF curriculum. In other words, when I teach an armbar at Level One I don't teach straight grab, and then cross-grab and then grab-on-one-foot and grab-with-one-eye closed as separate and unique techniques. An armbar is an armbar--- a unique technique. So in the WHF curriculum you might have 10 armbar techniques. In the academic approach you may have one or two. The permutations are addressed, but in another part of the class called "practicum". Anyhow, thats how I handle it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Bruce-

Off subject (meaning, not relating to your last post)

I oftentimes find myself agreeing with some of your posts or disagreeing with some of your posts....without actually knowing what the hell you are talking about.

I don't think I'm alone, either.

Kevin- is Bruce easier to understand in person?

Now I need to go build a spreadsheet to see an example of the permutations....

Jeremy