Towards a Minimum Hapkido Standard

[American HKD]

Now this sounds great Now lets say we three decide there should be a time in-grade something all three of us believe in. Would you abide no questions asked ?

And we all set the rules You train with us and no-one else Would you agree?
Or if we stated that since we make the judgment and not you , form NOW on we will test your Black Belt Students not you....

It would not work ...... In reality I HAVE NEVER promoted someone that was not a student of mine or my students , student We are not a Hapkido clearing house . somewhere along the way Everyone forgot to mention Loyalty To you instructor He taught you plain and simple.

Over and Over i have heard those money hungry koreans all they want is to be in control and take our money for testing and such.

Being an electrician has it ups and downs it is the nature of the Business or the lively hood i have chosen . I am presently unemployed since june this happens and this is how it goes.

My instructor found out about this and called me and offered to send me money to help me out since He considers me his son, I have not paid this man tuition since 1977 and i lived with him and his family on more than one occasion one time for four months when i went through the KHA instructors course in 1982.

Now should I abandon him because he did not train under choi ? Or he is not teaching what Choi originally taught ?

Master Won has a little saying : If your Father is Ugly do you trade him for better looking father ? Or is he your Father just the same Family is Family and I am considered his and I do nothing that will ruin the bond we have.

Hal Whalen

What you're suggestings is more of the same problems over again with different father figures.

My ideas are more individualistic with the support of the father not the control of the father. Understand?

You can't box anything in other than a bare minimum such as; the 3 Principle of Hapkido & a set of Minimum Core Techniques not Maximum.

If a student can demonstration a core minimum at a Bleck Belt level he's a Hapkido Black Belt accepted by all.

The rest is up to the Instructors meaning time requirements, more techniques taught than the minimum techniques, specialty techniques, etc.

I will agree to a testing board of the Instuctor and two other Instructors for a any dan level to keeps things honest no other controls should be in place.

This is my concepts about how things should be done and I believe it will solve many problems and disagreements and be better for each person.

LESS is MORE, no big government telling everybody what to do.

 

[glad2bhere]

Right on the money, Stuart. As new as this project is, there is no faster way to kill it than to suddenly start talking about what people HAVE to do. This is an advisory effort with as many people providing advice as possible. We could not have done this without the Internet so lets take advantage of our good fortune while we have it, yes?

I think if we start at the top of Hal's list and just work down we should probably be OK.

Hal:

Would you be willing to list your 11 kicks and 22 strikes for us?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[whalen]

"..

Good start!! OK, so we have some work to do. Heres' some things I see.

1.) Since right this moment we are only talking about minimums, I snipped-off everything after 1st Dan. If this ever expands past the basics then we need to start in with looking at the dan ranks for individual minimums, wouldn't you think?

2.) Another thing to look at (and only you will be able to do this right now) are those techniques which repeat themselves even if they do so under varied situations, or in response to different techniques.

3.) Then, of those remaining techniques, which are already represented among the kicking, striking, falling or grappling techniques already mentioned--- and drop those out. What this should leave are unique techniques which are candidate for discussion about including them because they encourage some aspexct of Hapkido that is being over looked, or address an aspect of Hapkido already identified, but does it in a very unique way of its own. If you like we can use your list as a kind of "test case" to show other people how a selection process from a larger curriculum might be done. Thoughts?

BTW: The idea of using "breakaways" was communicated to my by Dojunim Kim as being part of original Choi material. Apparently there are 10 (?) "breakaways" that are taught so as to identify the way the wrist can be manipulated in later techniques. I had not thought of this until I saw your heading "breakaways".

BTW #2: I have not done anything with either breathing or blocking as I am waiting for more input from folks on these matters. When it comes to cross-referencing as I did on other things all of my resources are all over the board. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

This is going to take another cup of coffee ,I love this not working stuff now I know why it been kept a secret for so long hahaha....

What I did was take it off of my student manual, now what you have try and understand is that I have named every single technique we do, This way your no#1 is not his no#6 and so on all of my students kind of have an idea of how it works. Now this is not without some problems for instance when I test students I do not call out names of techniques unless I am referring to kicking.

What I will state is lower wrist show me what you know, I do not stop them when they have reached the allotted number I let them run with it, no one wants to be the first to stop it is human nature. Students then search through their hapkido Archives sometimes doing techniques you have not taught them in years' Then we move to the next catagory and every test i do I use 5 of my Black Belt students as a board and I HAVE NEVER OVERRULED Them.

After everyone is done I will then State you only needed ten and you did 26 for example. It shows the student that they do indeed know more than they ever gave themselves credit for. and proves to them and their peers and families they have indeed learned their Hapkido

There are techniques that are duplicated in different areas, but sometimes the approach and the manner in which the techniques are applied changes so I explain this as I teach and i count this as a separate technique not to play the numbers game. But I take away any chance someone may freeze or draw a blank under pressure.

I also explain how the technique is applied to one attacker and I have to keep in mind that if there are several attackers the footwork will change so as not to give the second or third attacker room to attack. or if a weapon is now introduced that was not originally present.

Some of the double kicks are aimed at one person or at several ..

If this will help by all means use this. But lets say someone came to me and wanted to test fort he KHF i would then test by the KHF syllabus and if my students were part of that test i would pull them aside and explain and the entire test would be held so any non-member of my Dojang would not be at a disadvantage.

This is only fair and the right thing to do .It is not trying to make them look inferior or to show off your students.

Hal whalen

 

[American HKD]

These are the requirements i use 7th Gueb
Demonstration 103 techniques 6-7 months

22 hand strikes
12 kicks
8 basic blocks
10 Defense against punches with counter strikes
10 defense against punches with kicks
10 same side break aways
10 cross wrist break aways
10 kicks against wrist grabs

The requirement for 6th Gueb
Demonstration 53 techniques 3 months minimum from last test

9 additional kicks
10 throws against wrist grab
18 basic joint locks against wrist grab
14 basic cross wrist grabs with joint-locks

The requirements for 5th gueb 3 months minimum form 6th gueb
demonstration 60 techniques

20 more kicks
35 defenses against clothing grabs multiple areas
5 defenses against hair grabs

The requirements for 4th Gueb 3 month s minimum from 5th gueb
Demonstration 70 techniques

20 double kicks
20 defense against punches with throws and joint-locks
10 handshake defense
5 defense against rear wrist grabs
15 intermediate level defense against clothing grabs

The requirements for 3rd gueb 3 months minimum from 4th gueb
Demonstration of 72 techniques

20 hopping or sliding kicks
17 Defense against clothing grabs from rear
15 intermediate wrist breaks
20 Defenses against body grabs from rear

The requirements for 2nd gueb 3 months minimum since 3 gueb
Demonstration of 75 techniques

20 jump double kicks
20 Defense against front body grabs
25 Defenses against Kicks
10 defense against two hands grabbing two wrists

The requirements for 1st gueb 3 months minimum since 2nd gueb
Demonstration 59 Techniques

12 Flying kicks
10 two hands grabbing one wrist
12 advanced wrist breaks
10 from the side wrist grabs
3 defense from underside wrist grab to the chest

The requirements for 1st Dan minimum 6 months since 1st gueb test
17 special kicks
36 knife defense
15 offensive techniques
10 choking techniques

For first dan test and every test you have to demonstrate all of the previous techniques as seemed necessary by the testing board Certain kicks are eliminated Do to age or physical limitations

The requirements for 2nd Dan minimum 1 since 1st dan
Demonstration of 133 techniques

20 Black Belt Level against clothing grabs
20 " " " against wrist grabs
15 " " " against punches
21 " " " against kicks
8 special kicks
11 seated defense
11 lying on back
20 combination joint locks


The requirements for 3rd Dan 2 year since 2nd dan
Demonstration of 150 techniques

16 defense against pistol
30 defense against joint locks/ counter joint locks
short stick technique
20 technique against punch
20 techniques against kick
20 against clothing/ body grabs
20 escorting/ arresting technique
20 long pole technique

The requirements for 4th Dan Master minimum 3 years since 3 Dan
Demonstration of 125 techniques

20 Cane technique against kick
20 Cane technique against punch
20 cane technique against grabs
15 sword offensive sword attack
15 defensive sword
15 defense two people grabbing wrist
15 defense two people grabbing multiple areas of body not just wrist.

these are the requirements of our Dojang all were taught by my masters in korea and many that i learned for Choi,Han Young whom i train with while stationed in texas . I also have not included Tan jon breathing , it is done every class Also falling techniques this is a given.


I also did not mention pressure points for attack or healing and body alignment for chiropractic purpose since it would cause legal problems.

I am not trying to be boastful you can contact Mike T this is what he test with.

I hope this helps in some way I have also named all of the techniques up to 2nd Dan

Hal whalen

Hal

Way too much stuff in my opinion and how much is cross over material meaning the same armbar for wrist, lapel, hair, belt grab, punch ad nausea.

See to me that's one CORE tech. and various applications.

Same with kicks front kick, jump front, skipping front, all the same technique.

Once someone understand the core principle of any technique only application is left and there's very little wrong or right. Either it works or it doesn't.

Moreover defense from all postions are learned more intutuively rather than let me remember which techniques goes here. That's a slow and outdated method of teaching but the many are set in thier ways because they were taught that way.

Be realistic and progressive that's my feelings.
Hapkido can be made easier to learn much less to remember if taught as principles and core techniques IMHO

 

[whalen]

Bruce your killing me Mo left a list for me to do i have to rake the leaves etc.... i figure God made them so he should rake them anything is possible, Look at the Red Sox


1. front kick from rear leg
2. Low scoop kick rear leg
3.outside slicing kick (using knife edge of foot)
4.twisting kick/inverted roundhouse
5.Inside heel kick
6.front rising heel kick
7.outside cresent kick
8.inside cresent kick
9.side thrust kick
10.Roundhouse kick
11.hook kick
12.Cover kick
13. ax kick
14.spin heel kick
15. spin side kick

Hand strikes

1.back fist
2.chop
3.reverse chop
4.downward chop
5.ridge hand
6.reverse ridge hand
7.one knucle strike
8.tiger mouth
9.palm strike
10.forearm strike
11.eye slice
12.hammer fist
13.spearhand
14.thumb strike
15.four knucle strike
16.spin sudo
17.spin backfist
18.upward elbow
19.cross elbow
20.spining elbow
21.downward elbow
22.Back hand slap

falling technique
1.front fall kneeling
2.front fall standing
3.back fall crouching
4.back fall standing
5.side fall
6.forward roll

I hope this helps

Hal whalen

 

[whalen]

Hal

Way too much stuff in my opinion and how much is cross over material meaning the same armbar for wrist, lapel, hair, belt grab, punch ad nausea.

See to me that's one CORE tech. and various applications.

Same with kicks front kick, jump front, skipping front, all the same technique.

Once someone understand the core principle of any technique only application is left and there's very little wrong or right. Either it works or it doesn't.

Moreover defense from all positions are learned more intuitively rather than let me remember which techniques goes here. That's a slow and outdated method of teaching but the many are set in their ways because they were taught that way.

Be realistic and progressive that's my feelings.
Hapkido can be made easier to learn much less to remember if taught as principles and core techniques IMHO

Stu,
I am taking the guess work out of it. they know why certain techniques work in certain areas and why they will not. some people will never be able to think in terms of principle, when you are attacked we do not want stop and think will this work from here or not ? you do not have time to do a mental scan it has to be second nature, not one that takes a lot of thought process.

I am not telling anyone they have to follow what i teach it is up to people to decide what works for them. I am eliminating the Guess work until they have a firm grasp of motion and resistance. and how to work against an opponent without running into a mental block.

Also there are a lot of Dojangs that have a limited amount of actual Hapkido on the mat . Not just Hapkido seminars, a lot are know being taught by seminar standards. Where you have to emphasis theory over technique so as to make sure they go home with something. It is a lot simpler to say you did not understand the theory I taught you or explained, Than have them come back and state the technique did not work.

How many seminars have you been to where all of the participants taught Hapkido ? they may flaunt their rank or use the excuse they teach something else like tae-Kwon-do it is easier than excepting the fact they care more about a certificate than teaching Hapkido . Or it is for their skills they pursue this.


Remember " He who hesitates meditates Horizontally"

Hal Whalen

 

[Disco]

Gentlemen, I hate to be a wet blanket here, but I guess someone has to do it.

It has already been stated that this undertaking is not suppose to have any bearing for issuing rank, no new governing organization. Then I ask you, why are we even entertaining such an endeavor. We have already been subject to a criteria/curriculum to be where we currently are. Perhaps I'm not seeing things clearly. To my way of thinking, establishing a base core minimum standards is designed to evaluate. Just who and why would someone subject themselves to be reviewed, unless it was to secure a standing (rank) in Hapkido. Since no rankings will be issued, it seems a moot point.

 

[American HKD]

Stu,
I am taking the guess work out of it. they know why certain techniques work in certain areas and why they will not. some people will never be able to think in terms of principle, when you are attacked we do not want stop and think will this work from here or not ? you do not have time to do a mental scan it has to be second nature, not one that takes a lot of thought process.

I am not telling anyone they have to follow what i teach it is up to people to decide what works for them. I am eliminating the Guess work until they have a firm grasp of motion and resistance. and how to work against an opponent without running into a mental block.

Also there are a lot of Dojangs that have a limited amount of actual Hapkido on the mat . Not just Hapkido seminars, a lot are know being taught by seminar standards. Where you have to emphasis theory over technique so as to make sure they go home with something. It is a lot simpler to say you did not understand the theory I taught you or explained, Than have them come back and state the technique did not work.

How many seminars have you been to where all of the participants taught Hapkido ? they may flaunt their rank or use the excuse they teach something else like tae-Kwon-do it is easier than excepting the fact they care more about a certificate than teaching Hapkido . Or it is for their skills they pursue this.


Remember " He who hesitates meditates Horizontally" Funny

Hal Whalen

Hal

I see you point and there's two sides of each coin.

I think free expression and creativity on the part of the student is the best way but some people need to be told more and I agree with you 100%

I followed like a robot until 2nd dan then I couldn't take it anymore. Master Son would never break from the traditional way of thinking. If I tried something new in class he alway stopped it.

On the other hand Master Ji appreciates when he sees you do something different and says to you "good idea" or something like that.

Open mindedness expands on ideas. It's hard sometimes and takes effort to re-think old ways but everyones different and not the same that's why there must be alot of freedom for Instructors to best serve the students.

 

[whalen]

Hal

I see you point and there's two sides of each coin.

I think free expression and creativity on the part of the student is the best way but some people need to be told more and I agree with you 100%

I followed like a robot until 2nd dan then I couldn't take it anymore. Master Son would never break from the traditional way of thinking. If I tried something new in class he alway stopped it.

On the other hand Master Ji appreciates when he sees you do something different and says to you "good idea" or something like that.

Open mindedness expands on ideas. It's hard sometimes and takes effort to re-think old ways but everyones different and not the same that's why there must be alot of freedom for Instructors to best serve the students.QUOTE]

Stu, Not that I do not allow for creativity. You have to reach a certain level of expertise before things really start to click,

What I am talking about is JR. Dan ranks 1,2 they have not reached that level yet where by the feel of grip know when they have to change into a different technique . Or by the way you are attacked how much force will be necessary to subdue and survive.

But I believe you are starting to understand what i am trying to say.

Hal

 

[whalen]

Gentlemen, I hate to be a wet blanket here, but I guess someone has to do it.

It has already been stated that this undertaking is not suppose to have any bearing for issuing rank, no new governing organization. Then I ask you, why are we even entertaining such an endeavor. We have already been subject to a criteria/curriculum to be where we currently are. Perhaps I'm not seeing things clearly. To my way of thinking, establishing a base core minimum standards is designed to evaluate. Just who and why would someone subject themselves to be reviewed, unless it was to secure a standing (rank) in Hapkido. Since no rankings will be issued, it seems a moot point.

Mike,

I hope this was not the intention, what I believe they were trying to figure out is if someone says they are Hapkido or claiming to teach Hapkido this would be some of what should or needs to be taught.

I have No INTEREST in becoming part of a board or some other rank issuing organization. I am first and foremost a member of chundokwan and to keep things moving in the right Direction I do not issue out my own dan certification.

Nor would I ever except one from anyone but My Master,Trust me there have been offers....

My Master issues the certificate of KHF this is what my Black Belt students have

Hal Whalen

 

[American HKD]

Hal

I see you point and there's two sides of each coin.

I think free expression and creativity on the part of the student is the best way but some people need to be told more and I agree with you 100%

I followed like a robot until 2nd dan then I couldn't take it anymore. Master Son would never break from the traditional way of thinking. If I tried something new in class he alway stopped it.

On the other hand Master Ji appreciates when he sees you do something different and says to you "good idea" or something like that.

Open mindedness expands on ideas. It's hard sometimes and takes effort to re-think old ways but everyones different and not the same that's why there must be alot of freedom for Instructors to best serve the students.QUOTE]

Stu, Not that I do not allow for creativity. You have to reach a certain level of expertise before things really start to click,

What I am talking about is JR. Dan ranks 1,2 they have not reached that level yet where by the feel of grip know when they have to change into a different technique . Or by the way you are attacked how much force will be necessary to subdue and survive.

But I believe you are starting to understand what i am trying to say.

Hal

Hal

I totally get it. In fact that's when I got it after 2nd Dan.

For sure the 1st few gups are all about basics.
After that people can explore a little by 1st dan they should have a good idea dont you think.

But also I think we don't give enough leadway in the early stages and way too many repeat techniques that cross over. So I teach the principles as soon as I can so the cross over stuff is cake later on.

It still takes time anyway you do it.

Have fun got to go.

 

[glad2bhere]

Ok. So we get finished bumping Hal's list of techniques up against the standard ones' we have so far. In the kicking department we have the following matches.

1.) Front Kick
2.) Scoop Kick
3.) Outside Slicing Kick
4.) Twisting Kick
5.) Inside Heel Kick
6.) Front Rising Heel Kick
9.) Side Thrust Kick
11.) Hook Kick
13.) Axe Kick

Not turning up in the group of common basics are the "spin kicks", the cover kick, roundhouse kick, or the crescent Kicks. Now this raises an interesting issue. Just about everybody and their brother does a RH Kick and Cresent Kicks, at least they certainly show up in those traditions derived from both Kim and Ji. Do we survey for inclusion? Do we stick with just those techniques that are held in common? Thoughts? Comments?

(BTW: What happened to the Back kick?)

For Handstrikes we have the following.

1.) Backfist
2.) Chop
5.) Ridgehand
7.) One-knuckle Strike
9.) Palm Strike
12.) Hammerfist
13.) Spearhand
15.) Four-knuckle Strike
18.) Upward Elbow Strike
19.) Cross Elbow Strike
21.) Downward Elbow Strike
22.) Backhand Strike

Once again there are a couple of techniques that are not part of the overall accepted position but are very popular among a select group of practitioners. Among those techniques are the Tiger Mouth Strike and spinning hand techniques.

So what does this mean? Well, here is what I would do with information like this, but you have to be willing to do a fantasy with me. Lets suppose that I didn't know Hal Whalen whatsoever---- never heard of him. One day, however, a guy shows up in town and wants to join the class. Thing is that he insists that he is a 1st Black Belt and he got his chodan from Hal. Do I take him at his word or do I wonder if he has at least the basic skills a person who says he is a BB in Hapkido could be expected to have? Well, since Hals' curriculum has at least 9 kicking techniques of the standard 11 and at least 12 out of 22 strikes are in the standard techniques as well as all of the basic falling techniques, I can be reasonably certain that the person presenting to me could participate in a class and not put his partner or himself at risk.

Of course, we haven't gotten to the blocking and grappling but I wonder if people can see how this tool could be used. Now, we still have not addressed how one can get certain technique common to some traditions and not to others added or dropped from the list but I have plenty of time to listen if somebody wants to throw out a suggestion. Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[whalen]

Now as to not confuse the situation

6th gueb kicking techniques

1. inward kick to knee
2. front thrust kick
3. inverted instep kick to face
4. forward knee strike
5. front pushing kick
6. front knife edge (risinig )
7. front angular kick
8. hatchet kick
9. low circular kick
10. back kick

5th geub kicking techniques

1. front leg side kick
2. crossing side kick
3. front leg hook kick
4. front leg front kick
5. front leg roundhouse
6. Frog side kick
7. spinning axe kick
8.spinning crescent kick
9.180 degree spin heel kick
10.360 degree spin heel kick
11. spinning roundhouse
12. drop spin heel kick
13. spinning slap kick
14. drop roundhouse
15. drop side kick

these cover most of the single kicks we use at the beginning level.

Hal whalen

 

[greendragon]

Wow, all this curriculum looks very familiar,, as I read the name of certain techniques Master Whalen listed I started having flashbacks and bruises magically appeared on my arms and legs..and feet.. ha... I like this conversation... it looks like a good idea and starting point...having a set core curriculum that was accepted and adapted across the board would be great and would help out a lot of those people I have met in the past who truly have a genuine love of Hapkido but can't find it in the "real" sense of the word and art for whatever reason.
Michael Tomlinson

 

[whalen]

Bring back memories Bro ?

I know that people think i am exaggerating or i compiled the numbers to make it appear like more.

You were part of this, you were there.....And every Black Belt we ever promoted did it the same way no cutting corners it also showed who you are and what you are made of,,,,,

Hal Whalen

 

[Disco]

[From Bruce] So what does this mean? Well, here is what I would do with information like this, but you have to be willing to do a fantasy with me. Lets suppose that I didn't know Hal Whalen whatsoever---- never heard of him. One day, however, a guy shows up in town and wants to join the class. Thing is that he insists that he is a 1st Black Belt and he got his chodan from Hal. Do I take him at his word or do I wonder if he has at least the basic skills a person who says he is a BB in Hapkido could be expected to have? Well, since Hals' curriculum has at least 9 kicking techniques of the standard 11 and at least 12 out of 22 strikes are in the standard techniques as well as all of the basic falling techniques, I can be reasonably certain that the person presenting to me could participate in a class and not put his partner or himself at risk.

Question, what will establishing a new across the board curriculum/criteria do that would be any different from what you would currently do if and when a "trained" person seeks to participate or join your school? Not trying to upset the apple cart here, cause it's good to see everybody wanting to participate. I'm just having a difficult time understanding the need for it, if it's not going to facilitate initial acceptance for entry to an organization.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

Thats a hard question to answer as I am not able to get into everybodys' head and know to what use they would put this standard in there own life.
Here are some of the things that I could imagine using a common minimal standard for.

1.) You are presented with someone who reports that they have studied Hapkido of an obscure style and/or obscure teacher. Rather than automatically assess them according to your own kwans' standard, using a minimal basic skills standard provides an unprejudiced assessment of "survival skills" they could reasonably be expected to know.

2.) As a teacher I am responsible for the safety of EVERYONE in my class. Using a minimal skills standard provides an un-prejudiced group of skills that tells me that a person can interact safely with minimal risk of hurting others or getting hurt.

3.) As a Hapkido peer a minimal standard gives an agreed-upon group of techniques which individuals can use as reference points by which to have more technical discussions along with the more generic discussions about personalities and politics.

4.) A minimum standard organized by practitioners across the spectrum of Hapkido arts may serve to reduce the sense that we are so very different by pointing up similarities among what we do. Perhaps this will reduce the amount of political distance among practitioners and allow them to interact more smoothly with each other. Thoughts?

What I do NOT see this being used for are things like the following.

1.) Assessment for membership in some new organization.

2.) As a substitution for existing and proven curriculum.

3.) As a shortcut for establishing Hapkido credentials. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michael:

Would you be willing to post your guep material (kicks, strikes, and breakfalls) so we can examine it for common techniques with this standard we are working on? Thoughts? Comments?

BTW: To folks in general: I am getting ready to put out a set of blocking techniques. Anyone have any thoughts in anticipation of that?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Bruce, Thanks for the reply. I'll just leave well enough alone. Folks are focused on a united position here and that's a really good thing.

Mike

 

[glad2bhere]

I hope you won't back-off too far! Its been my experience that some of us get into situations where we can't see the forest cuz all the trees are in the way. When that happens it helps to have an independent viewpoint, if you know what I mean.

Best Wishes,

Bruce