Towards a Minimum Hapkido Standard

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

Of all the possible points a person can consider regarding their martial art career this HAS to be one of the single toughest issues. I won't pretend to speak for the art on this one but can share some of what I have come to understand for myself.

First off, lets put the gueppies to one side. They have the luxury of a kind of stair-step system through which they can ride the escalator to Cho-dan. I don't mean to maginalize their training efforts, but only say that when it comes to speaking of "depth" they have an easier time of it because their pathes are usually pretty well defined. So it is only of the Dan ranks that I want to speak. Here are some landmarks that I think bespeak "depth" in Hapkido practice.

1.) An understanding of the technical or physical properties that make a technique work. Please Gawd, by the time a person makes it to Chodan this should be a given. certainly depth can be measured by how much a person is increasingly more technically adept as they progress through the ranks.

2.) An understanding of the conceptual or theoretical properties that make a technique work. Again, please Gawd, by the time a person makes it to Chodan this should be a given but knowing how youth and muscle conspire against us there are always those who will use might over insight in making material work for them. The degree to which a person can fight smarter and not harder is another landmark.

3.) An understanding of the art of "interchangeability is certainly a sign of depth. This can include the facility with which a person can transition from one ("failed"?) technique to another. It can also be manifest in the way in which a person can use the biomechanics of one weapon, or even empty-hand material to appropriately use another weapon--- even a weapon of opportunity.

4.) Another field that demonstrates depth of the art is the ability to use the same principles one uses in the more physical techniques in intellectual, emotional and spiritual realms of human interaction. We know what it means to "un-blance" or "un-time" or "un-focus" a person physically and do it quite often on the mat. Can a person learn to do the same thing with a person who is attacking them, say, intellectually, or challenging them emotionally?

This, of course, is not an exhautive list, but I thought it might be a good starting point for a response to your question. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Bruce, everything you said, is right on point. Either somebody knows what their doing or they don't and it will show, per Kevins statement. Yes, a 21 year old 5th Dan Hapkidoin should be looked on with a jaundice eye, I concur. But that is the extreme, not the norm, at least I hope it's not. This still brings me back, mostly for Kevins input, on the people who were taught correctly but lack the perfered pedigree. At the risk of :whip: I'll repeat that there are those who also fall on the opposite side of the fence. They have the pedigree paper, but lack the skill. We have all either seen or heard about such people. From my viewpoint, according to Kevins position (If I am in fact understanding it correctly), present paper - welcome aboard........Now correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm sure Kevin will - ), but even "known" people in the Hapkido world, would be excluded for lack of "Papal Paper". Knowning and seeing (the KHF chronicles) how people are / were treated, I'm hard pressed to understand why other's would wish for defacto seperation. As much as either you or I and some other's would like to see this come full circle, I think we all realize it's just not going to happen. Yourself and Stuart were at the beginning, somewhat on the same page. It's starting to now look like the camp has been divided. Kevin is trying to secure (and I understand his positioning to a point), a clean slate with which to build from. It just can't happen..... No I'll revise that statement - It can happen, but at a seperatist cost, which puts everything back at square one again.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

Yes, and we really DO NEED to talk about this. We really DO NEED to do better than those who came before us. It takes no character at all to simply repeat the same mistakes. I refuse to believe that we can't come to some better reconciliation. Now--- I say this because I think to some extent working with Kevin or Todd or many other people would, be a kind of clean slate, with some odd bits here and there. But, I am beginning to finally appreciate that there are also a great number of people who have a vested interest in keeping the Hapkido community divided and for the life of me I can't understand why. I DO know that they exist and that up to this time I have either not accepted that they exist or underestimated their need to keep things divided up into separate fiefs. For instance, there is really not all of that much difference between the SIN MU and the YON MU KWAN, but there are folks who simply see nothing of Hapkido unless it comes from the mouth of Ji. I have run into the same people in WHRDA and KSW with there particular groups and then there are those who have a fanaticism about their particular independent teacher. We can do better than this, but I don't think the issue is finding and identifying commonalities. Rather it seems to be some peoples need to be "special" or a "large fish in a small pond" or ?????? I am not sure how one goes about overcoming this sort of parochial attitude. JR West brings a number of his people under a single banner twice a year and they have a really good time. Not sure how much is accomplished beyond getting people into the same building at the same time. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

"I refuse to believe that we can't come to some better reconciliation. Now--- I say this because I think to some extent working with Kevin or Todd or many other people would, be a kind of clean slate".

Bruce, I understand your desire to "come together", but I fear that the die has already been cast. Just going back over all the posts and it is plain to see. I think this idea and people started out with the right intentions, but as it has progressed in thought, things (attitudes) seemed to have taken different positions. I will say, that I have received an education, over and above what I previously was imbued with. Hapkido history is definitely rife with many unanswered questions and people who seem to have circumvented, what we have come to perceive, as the normal proliferation for obtaining rank. A selective "caste" system has been established and I am sorry to say that many of us fail the DNA for acceptance. Just an out loud thought here; "We know that Choi was somewhat selective (from reported history), but I wonder if his selectivity was based upon where a person came from or how they presented themselves"?

 

[Black Belt FC]

Gentlemen,





It would appear at first glance that a national registry suggested by people who post here is an attempt to shed light on people who have authentic lineage and training. But unfortunately I’m very skeptical; the motives appear to me nothing more than an attempt to monopolies Hapkido and self-glorification.





In the past posting I listed several unfortunate experiences I had. Some people (not all) who can make a dynamic impact the Hapkido community are either not willing to share training time or knowledge or concern about which students will work against them. They’re holding on tight to Hapkido as if it’s an unclaimed winning lotto ticket. Others complain exhaustingly how they’re doing the REAL thing and everybody else is not as if that approach will insure them students or national respect. I honestly doubt it will.





The ultimate way to make an impact is in my opinion, by producing quality black belt who in turn will instruct others. Another way is to put your money where your mouth is and getting on the mat with other practitioners, train and instruct with them.





I don’t see how a national registry will help Hapkido but rather it will create more hostility due to the many fractions of Hapkido in the US. Which master, organizations and groups will be recognized? If some individuals have it their way they will exclude some organizations just to promote theirs.





I prefer just to get together with the usual suspects, you know them; Whalen, Timmerman, West, Thomas etc…. and learn from them.







Lugo

 

[Black Belt FC]

PS HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO EVERYONE!!!!!

 

[shesulsa]

~ Mod. Note.

Black Belt FC, please refer to the rules for cross-posting. You'll find them here.

Please keep the conversation on topic.

~ Georgia Ketchmark
~ MT Moderator

 

[Black Belt FC]

Understood..............Thank You

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike -- and Lugo:

"....Hapkido history is definitely rife with many unanswered questions and people who seem to have circumvented, what we have come to perceive, as the normal proliferation for obtaining rank. A selective "caste" system has been established and I am sorry to say that many of us fail the DNA for acceptance. Just an out loud thought here; "We know that Choi was somewhat selective (from reported history), but I wonder if his selectivity was based upon where a person came from or how they presented themselves"?....."

OK--- I don't mean to be antagonistic by what I am about to write, but I wonder if I am hearing what was written by you two for what I think its saying. Is what I am reading in your posts that the "die is cast" and that we unable to alter the nature of our community? Worse yet--- are we going to have to face the possibility that many of the leading practitioners of Hapkido arts are leaders in name only? Even worse than THAT are we to have to face that putting all the pretty words about character development, interpersonal growth and community most of our compatriots are narrow-minded at best and parochial hypocrits at worst? Do we only come out of thre best part of ourselves when we are "at leisure" to do so--- otherwise its every man for himself? I guess I am at a loss to understand what we have been working at in our respective careers if the final result is a clan of self-serving petty despots-- each fervently protecting their own fief. If this is true then I would need to conceed that any further work to play up the commonalities and similarities among us would only work if everyone could identify some large pay-off for doing so, yes? Failing that, each person looks to his own efforts and his own fief. Am I hearing this accurately? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Bruce, in my opinion - yes you are hearing it correctly. Just a condensed review if I may. If not mistaken, didn't this start out as a common reference terminology chart and then it expanded to technical standards?

1. Let's put our heads together and come up with Standards.
2. People listed what they felt was needed.
3. People then referenced who/what should be included/excluded.
4. Personalities were then introduced and rank was questioned.
5. People then were/are trying to formulate "Help" "Good Idea" "Keep It Straight" concepts.

Understand, I applaud you for even contemplating such a task. History has shown that our teachers were and still are highly unmotivated to anything remotely being conceived as unification. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't this thread make a hard right turn when the "who should / shouldn't be allowed" segment aired?

Respectfully
Mike

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Stuart:

I tried to post this a while back, but I have had lots of problems with this forum for the past week or so. Seems that things are back to normal again, so here it goes (albeit without the original post I replied to).

FWIW:
GM Seo still teaches the same thing he has always taught, Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do. It is not uncommon (in any business) to change the name of an organization but still teach the same thing (like GM JI now calls his art Sin Moo Hap Ki Do etc. etc.) I guess my main problem is that I do not believe that lineage makes an art, it merely notes some of the people who trained in the art. IMHO, the art itself is the art.

I have seen some folks who HAVE lineage who are really not showing Hap Ki Do for what it is, do you get what I mean??? The lineage is there, but the art is not. For example, how could I tell that Bruce trained in another art before??? It is simple, I could SEE it! Does this make Bruce a bad practitioner... NO. Is he Hap Ki Do... YES. Lines of who IS and who is NOT cannot be as cut and dried as you might like to see them. There are many considerations to be looked at, and my question remains... WHO among you is qualified to make such judgements? One might make a database for the Choi or JI lineage; fine, but to say that THESE folks are the only ones who know Hap Ki Do is ludicrous.

BTW, up to the last post I read on this subject, I still have not seen anyone deny that GM Kimm is Hap Ki Do. Which one of you illustrious folks are going to tell the world that Doju Nim Kimm is not Hap Ki Do, because he studied with GM Suh for many years? What about JR West??? He studied with GM Kimm, and his seminars are among the most popular among REAL Hap Ki Do people.

Why is it that these REAL Hap Ki Do people come to learn from NON Hap KI Do people JR and myself???? My ring is filled with REAL Hap Ki Do people interested in what I have to teach, and every year I am asked to teach during intermissions... again with a capacity crowd. Glad to do it to, but in your book (and for sure in Kevin's book) I am apparently a fraud.

Most of you are happy to have GM Kimm's Hap Ki Do Bible on your shelf; but, if lineage alone is the qualifying factor of being Hap Ki Do, the author of the best book on your art can not even be recognized by you. Does this not make you think at least a little bit about the problem with your and Kevin's take on this?

It would be the easiest thing in the world for me to just say the hell with even discussing this, but I believe that this would let you and Kevin get away with doing even more damage Hap Ki Do than already has been afflicted on the art. Yes, be proud of your lineage, but that does not make you an authority on who teaches Hap Ki Do. What is the REAL agenda you and Kevin have???

It surely is not promoting Hap Ki Do. Seems to me that NON Hap Ki Do people like GM Seo, GM Kimm, JR, myself, and other "non continuous" lineage people are doing one hell of a lot more for Hap Ki Do than you folks are. You can't gain Hap Ki Do recognition by working the typewriter regardless of your lineage, and I suggest you try doing something more positive on the mat (in Jackson or one of my seminars in Canada). You're welcome anytime, and I will NOT harbor ill will, that simply is not my style MY goal is to promote goodwill among those who love Hap Ki Do.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

"......1. Let's put our heads together and come up with Standards....."

yes.

"......2. People listed what they felt was needed......"

Well, yes and no. Sorta; kinda; approximately.........

"......3. People then referenced who/what should be included/excluded
4. Personalities were then introduced and rank was questioned....."

YES YES YES!!!! And THIS is the point I don't understand. We have seen the results of this sort of elitist thinking in the past generation! Why are we wanting to repeat it yet again now that WE can choose something different! I don't know how we can best inter-relate our arts but there needs to be some better answer than what was past to us by the previous leadership!

Are we not to learn from our mistakes in the past?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

".....It surely is not promoting Hap Ki Do. Seems to me that NON Hap Ki Do people like GM Seo, GM Kimm, JR, myself, and other "non continuous" lineage people are doing one hell of a lot more for Hap Ki Do than you folks are. You can't gain Hap Ki Do recognition by working the typewriter regardless of your lineage, and I suggest you try doing something more positive on the mat (in Jackson or one of my seminars in Canada). You're welcome anytime, and I will NOT harbor ill will, that simply is not my style MY goal is to promote goodwill among those who love Hap Ki Do......"

And for my part I am working to stay with the "inclusion" rather than "exclusion" approach. In this I am very sure at least you and I are on the same page.

However, folks might represent what they do, I think you and I and a host of other people see what they do as Hapkido. Gawd knows that we have seen enough discussions in the past in which people's practice (regardless of what they CALL their art always comes back to that same narrow nexus back in the late 50-s and early 60-s. OK. Fine. Lee and Suh and a lot of old-timers will probably go to their grave stating that they teach something OTHER THAN Hapkido if only because of their particular spin on it. For my part I think that your approach and JR's approach is correct in that it speaks to including rather than excluding folks. Where I would like to see such venues go is in the development of some sort of "common language" whereby any person, of any Hapkido disciple, could trade on the similarities among practitioners and thereby expand their practice. For instance, in my sword material, I don't require people to learn from square-one in order to practice traditional Korean sword. I take them where they are at, polish what deficits I see and move them ahead. To my mind this is where I see Hapkido going if it is to survive.
Now, I will be the FIRST person to say that this makes things VERY difficult for me. For instance, I think its important to keep up on my practice of, say, the 6 KEECHO Hyung from KSW in order to appreciate the importance of KSW footwork as compared to my own. But if I wanted an easy path I would not have decided to teach and would have continued to focus exclusively on my own training by itself. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Hello Stuart:

I tried to post this a while back, but I have had lots of problems with this forum for the past week or so. Seems that things are back to normal again, so here it goes (albeit without the original post I replied to).

FWIW:
GM Seo still teaches the same thing he has always taught, Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do. It is not uncommon (in any business) to change the name of an organization but still teach the same thing (like GM JI now calls his art Sin Moo Hap Ki Do etc. etc.) I guess my main problem is that I do not believe that lineage makes an art, it merely notes some of the people who trained in the art. IMHO, the art itself is the art. I see what you mean and agree for the most part, my problem and alot of Hapkidoins feel the problem is a little deeper.

1. Will Kuk Sool or HRD wont recognize my HKD rank so even though they say it's a different system. Thier own writen history says they are not the same Art. Would you send me a Kuk Sool 5th Dan in recognition for my Sin Moo rank?

2. The name HAPKIDO has become an Art of what "anybody" wants it to be and IMHO it's a distinct Art with a particular flavor, so I naturally want to protect that as you do I'm sure. ( BTW I'm not concerned with guys like you or Dr. Kimm but all the people who throw a few techniques together from here and there and call it HKD) they are my concern.


I have seen some folks who HAVE lineage who are really not showing Hap Ki Do for what it is, do you get what I mean??? The lineage is there, but the art is not. For example, how could I tell that Bruce trained in another art before??? It is simple, I could SEE it! Does this make Bruce a bad practitioner... NO. Is he Hap Ki Do... YES. Lines of who IS and who is NOT cannot be as cut and dried as you might like to see them. There are many considerations to be looked at, and my question remains... WHO among you is qualified to make such judgements? One might make a database for the Choi or JI lineage; fine, but to say that THESE folks are the only ones who know Hap Ki Do is ludicrous.

BTW, up to the last post I read on this subject, I still have not seen anyone deny that GM Kimm is Hap Ki Do. Which one of you illustrious folks are going to tell the world that Doju Nim Kimm is not Hap Ki Do, because he studied with GM Suh for many years? What about JR West??? He studied with GM Kimm, and his seminars are among the most popular among REAL Hap Ki Do people.

Actually Dr Kimm is a student of Doju Ji and has a 9th Dan in Sin Moo. Dr. Kimm 1st Hapkido book is the "Sin Moo System" almost technique for technique as I learned it from Ji Han Jae FWIW. But so is Han MU Do just re-organized.

Why is it that these REAL Hap Ki Do people come to learn from NON Hap KI Do people JR and myself???? My ring is filled with REAL Hap Ki Do people interested in what I have to teach, and every year I am asked to teach during intermissions... again with a capacity crowd. Glad to do it to, but in your book (and for sure in Kevin's book) I am apparently a fraud.

Most of you are happy to have GM Kimm's Hap Ki Do Bible on your shelf; but, if lineage alone is the qualifying factor of being Hap Ki Do, the author of the best book on your art can not even be recognized by you. Does this not make you think at least a little bit about the problem with your and Kevin's take on this?

Dr Kimm is real HKD in my book so is JR and I pesonally never said anything about either of them regarding thier HKD connection or thier skills. I respect them as my seniors as well as thier talents and dedication to the Art. The same for you Rudy.

It would be the easiest thing in the world for me to just say the hell with even discussing this, but I believe that this would let you and Kevin get away with doing even more damage Hap Ki Do than already has been afflicted on the art. Yes, be proud of your lineage, but that does not make you an authority on who teaches Hap Ki Do. What is the REAL agenda you and Kevin have???

It surely is not promoting Hap Ki Do. Seems to me that NON Hap Ki Do people like GM Seo, GM Kimm, JR, myself, and other "non continuous" lineage people are doing one hell of a lot more for Hap Ki Do than you folks are. You can't gain Hap Ki Do recognition by working the typewriter regardless of your lineage, and I suggest you try doing something more positive on the mat (in Jackson or one of my seminars in Canada). You're welcome anytime, and I will NOT harbor ill will, that simply is not my style MY goal is to promote goodwill among those who love Hap Ki Do.

I have no ill will I think your reading me all wrong. I still think HKD is HKD from a certain source I don't care how you got there either, but some people have simply no traceable connection. That's a fact!

Rudy, kwanjang

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".......The name HAPKIDO has become an Art of what "anybody" wants it to be and IMHO it's a distinct Art with a particular flavor, so I naturally want to protect that as you do I'm sure. ( BTW I'm not concerned with guys like you or Dr. Kimm but all the people who throw a few techniques together from here and there and call it HKD) they are my concern......"

Yes, and I will say once against that THIS is where our dialogue needs to begin. IMVO it is NOT sufficent to simply say that these people can come into the Hapkido fold just as soon as they subscribe to some particular lineage, or philosophy. If they have such skills that they are able to practice safely and effectively with others we need to use that as a starting point and build from there. I will use myself for an example.

When a student comes to me, if they can safely practice with my other students we move from there. If we are doing things that are familiar to that new person then so much the better. If we are doing things that person does not recognize then they get taught what we are doing. The idea is to include people as much as possible. In Public Schools I think this would be called "mainstreaming" a student and as far as I know is the goal of every Special Education class and student I am familiar with. In the YON MU KWAN we press to get people "involved" and not "indoctrinated". Now, I don't kid myself. There are always folks who want the class to be a bit more this or a bit more that. From that standpoint I make it clear that I teach YMK Hapkido. Usually this is enough for anyone. For those who want a more eclectic approach with Escrima sticks, BJJ grappling or exotic Chinese weapons I make it clear that is not what we are about. But we still press the point of being about support and facilitation than about recruitment and I think that needs to be the focus in the Hapkido community. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

".......The name HAPKIDO has become an Art of what "anybody" wants it to be and IMHO it's a distinct Art with a particular flavor, so I naturally want to protect that as you do I'm sure. ( BTW I'm not concerned with guys like you or Dr. Kimm but all the people who throw a few techniques together from here and there and call it HKD) they are my concern......"

Yes, and I will say once against that THIS is where our dialogue needs to begin. IMVO it is NOT sufficent to simply say that these people can come into the Hapkido fold just as soon as they subscribe to some particular lineage, or philosophy. If they have such skills that they are able to practice safely and effectively with others we need to use that as a starting point and build from there. I will use myself for an example.

When a student comes to me, if they can safely practice with my other students we move from there. If we are doing things that are familiar to that new person then so much the better. If we are doing things that person does not recognize then they get taught what we are doing. The idea is to include people as much as possible. In Public Schools I think this would be called "mainstreaming" a student and as far as I know is the goal of every Special Education class and student I am familiar with. In the YON MU KWAN we press to get people "involved" and not "indoctrinated". Now, I don't kid myself. There are always folks who want the class to be a bit more this or a bit more that. From that standpoint I make it clear that I teach YMK Hapkido. Usually this is enough for anyone. For those who want a more eclectic approach with Escrima sticks, BJJ grappling or exotic Chinese weapons I make it clear that is not what we are about. But we still press the point of being about support and facilitation than about recruitment and I think that needs to be the focus in the Hapkido community. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I have students from Karate, TKD, Judo but to me as long as thier serious HKD students and are parts of my group they're in HKD.

They only time I will take exception is when I know someone's there to learn a few joint locks for thier own purposes and have no interest in the Art. I'm not interested in helping that person because I want to teach the Art not a few techniques to someone.

So basically what I'm saying is anyone can train with me regardless of background as long as they want to learn Hapkido.

 

[glad2bhere]

OK. Good start. Now lets take the next step. If a student were to ask you what tradition you teach--- what lineage would you claim and what would be your rationale?

If you do not claim a particular lineage, what answer do you make in that case, and how do you make sure they know that what you are teaching is not say, Judo but under a different label? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Stuart answers:
"I see what you mean and agree for the most part, my problem and alot of Hapkidoins feel the problem is a little deeper.

1. Will Kuk Sool or HRD wont recognize my HKD rank so even though they say it's a different system. Thier own writen history says they are not the same Art. Would you send me a Kuk Sool 5th Dan in recognition for my Sin Moo rank?

Hello Stuart:
Ofcourse I will not do that, but no one here was asking YOU to send a certificate to US either. This thread is not talking about certification, it is talking about exclusion because of broken lineage.

2. The name HAPKIDO has become an Art of what "anybody" wants it to be and IMHO it's a distinct Art with a particular flavor, so I naturally want to protect that as you do I'm sure. ( BTW I'm not concerned with guys like you or Dr. Kimm but all the people who throw a few techniques together from here and there and call it HKD) they are my concern.

Actually Dr Kimm is a student of Doju Ji and has a 9th Dan in Sin Moo. Dr. Kimm 1st Hapkido book is the "Sin Moo System" almost technique for technique as I learned it from Ji Han Jae FWIW. But so is Han MU Do just re-organized.

Doctor Kimm was one of Kuk Sool Hap Ki Dos main men (with GM Suh) way back in the late sixties. In fact, he was listed as one of its directors. So, at the very least, he jumped ship long ago, and he began his own org not long after. So, how is it that he IS recognized as Hap Ki Do by you, and others who did the same thing are not??? BTW, would it surprise you that the book you speak of is just about the same as the old Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do, technique for technique, as well. KSHKD just has some additional material such as hyung and some weapons; in fact, if you were to put Dr. Kimm's two books together (Kuk Sool and Hap Ki Do), you basically come up with the old KSHKD curriculum

Dr Kimm is real HKD in my book so is JR and I pesonally never said anything about either of them regarding thier HKD connection or thier skills. I respect them as my seniors as well as thier talents and dedication to the Art. The same for you Rudy.

What art are you speaking of here??? Dr. Kimm received high dahn rank in Kuk Sool from GM Suh in return for many years of study (during which time he could not have studied the full time Hap Ki Do normally required to earn 9th dahn Hap Ki Do with GM Ji). Tell me how anyone can get such high ranks in different arts if they are NOT basically the same art regardles of what lineage these folks claim or deny to further their own cause???

I have no ill will I think your reading me all wrong. I still think HKD is HKD from a certain source I don't care how you got there either, but some people have simply no traceable connection. That's a fact!

Stuart: I agree wholeheartedly with you there; however, Kevin is NOT talking about no traceable connection, even Kevin agrees that GM Seo personally received Dahn rank from GM Choi. Neither of YOU can say the same thing, but you ARE both willing to exclude that man just because of his brother's claims.

I believe that neither one of us are bearing ill will, but it does not change the fact that you and Kevin ARE talking about excluding people like myself just because our teachers did the same thing as Dr. Kimm and so many others did (without us students having any say in the matter).

There just HAS to be a different criteria than continuous lineage to define Hap Ki Do unless you really DO want to exclude people like GM Seo, Dr. Kimm, JR, and myself. You simply can't pick and choose a personality just because he wrote the best book on the subject.

Dr. Kimm has for decades NOT claimed to be Hap Ki Do. He also started his own org and named it something else, he also studied with LOTS of other (in your viewpoint) people with different styles, and for many, and I mean VERY many, years he studied with GM Suh (the very man who Kevin keeps hammering on for having abandoned or never been Hap Ki Do in the first place). What IS the difference???

FWIW, I have never "given" away anything Hap Ki Do (or other martial art) unless it is the free lessons I provide to many of the people who DO have the Hap Ki Do ties you speak of lol. Ironic does it not seem that way to you?

 

[Disco]

"I'm not interested in helping that person because I want to teach the Art not a few techniques to someone".

I think we may have just hit on the real crux of the problem. Just what is "The Art" and is the art the same for all. I've always had a very difficult time understanding peoples versions of the art and just how did it become an art in the first place? Did Choi or Ji sit down and say........hmmmm I think I'll start an art form!! Extremely doubtful, they started a martial discipline, which only had one purpose and that was to physically stop another human being from inflicting harm on their person and so it was handed down. Through the constant training aspect, a person's technical prowess should become well honed and they will look better at what their doing then a newer counterpart. Is this the "art" part of the equation? Or is the art all the extraneous elements that people have piggybacked on top of the physical aspects to elongate training times and fill the coffers? Is the "art" a constant companion when someone is in the throws of a real incounter? Is the art subjective to possibly undermining the physicality of the discipline? So many questions, but inquisitive minds want to know.

 

[American HKD]

Stuart answers:
"I see what you mean and agree for the most part, my problem and alot of Hapkidoins feel the problem is a little deeper.

1. Will Kuk Sool or HRD wont recognize my HKD rank so even though they say it's a different system. Thier own writen history says they are not the same Art. Would you send me a Kuk Sool 5th Dan in recognition for my Sin Moo rank?

Hello Stuart:
Ofcourse I will not do that, but no one here was asking YOU to send a certificate to US either. This thread is not talking about certification, it is talking about exclusion because of broken lineage.

2. The name HAPKIDO has become an Art of what "anybody" wants it to be and IMHO it's a distinct Art with a particular flavor, so I naturally want to protect that as you do I'm sure. ( BTW I'm not concerned with guys like you or Dr. Kimm but all the people who throw a few techniques together from here and there and call it HKD) they are my concern.

Actually Dr Kimm is a student of Doju Ji and has a 9th Dan in Sin Moo. Dr. Kimm 1st Hapkido book is the "Sin Moo System" almost technique for technique as I learned it from Ji Han Jae FWIW. But so is Han MU Do just re-organized.

Doctor Kimm was one of Kuk Sool Hap Ki Dos main men (with GM Suh) way back in the late sixties. In fact, he was listed as one of its directors. So, at the very least, he jumped ship long ago, and he began his own org not long after. So, how is it that he IS recognized as Hap Ki Do by you, and others who did the same thing are not??? BTW, would it surprise you that the book you speak of is just about the same as the old Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do, technique for technique, as well. KSHKD just has some additional material such as hyung and some weapons; in fact, if you were to put Dr. Kimm's two books together (Kuk Sool and Hap Ki Do), you basically come up with the old KSHKD curriculum

Dr Kimm is real HKD in my book so is JR and I pesonally never said anything about either of them regarding thier HKD connection or thier skills. I respect them as my seniors as well as thier talents and dedication to the Art. The same for you Rudy.

What art are you speaking of here??? Dr. Kimm received high dahn rank in Kuk Sool from GM Suh in return for many years of study (during which time he could not have studied the full time Hap Ki Do normally required to earn 9th dahn Hap Ki Do with GM Ji). Tell me how anyone can get such high ranks in different arts if they are NOT basically the same art regardles of what lineage these folks claim or deny to further their own cause???

I have no ill will I think your reading me all wrong. I still think HKD is HKD from a certain source I don't care how you got there either, but some people have simply no traceable connection. That's a fact!

Stuart: I agree wholeheartedly with you there; however, Kevin is NOT talking about no traceable connection, even Kevin agrees that GM Seo personally received Dahn rank from GM Choi. Neither of YOU can say the same thing, but you ARE both willing to exclude that man just because of his brother's claims.

I believe that neither one of us are bearing ill will, but it does not change the fact that you and Kevin ARE talking about excluding people like myself just because our teachers did the same thing as Dr. Kimm and so many others did (without us students having any say in the matter).

There just HAS to be a different criteria than continuous lineage to define Hap Ki Do unless you really DO want to exclude people like GM Seo, Dr. Kimm, JR, and myself. You simply can't pick and choose a personality just because he wrote the best book on the subject.

Dr. Kimm has for decades NOT claimed to be Hap Ki Do. He also started his own org and named it something else, he also studied with LOTS of other (in your viewpoint) people with different styles, and for many, and I mean VERY many, years he studied with GM Suh (the very man who Kevin keeps hammering on for having abandoned or never been Hap Ki Do in the first place). What IS the difference???

FWIW, I have never "given" away anything Hap Ki Do (or other martial art) unless it is the free lessons I provide to many of the people who DO have the Hap Ki Do ties you speak of lol. Ironic does it not seem that way to you?

Dear Rudy,

I was trying to think of a way to make completed issue simple I see now it's not so simple to you and maybe others. No offense intended.

I also see that you strongly feel the HKD, KS, HRD, HMD are all the Arts are the same systems and should be treated as such, at least that's what I think you're saying.

What should the critria be how would best serve the HKD community establishing who's who or do you think nothings like this database is needed at all?