TKD Pioneers Were Not Monolithic

[puunui]

We've had conversations where the Tae Geuk forms come up, and sloppy and unfocused usually come up at some point in relation to the short stances and the (probably) purposeful lack of kime.

Are you talking about the Taeguek poomsae performances you've seen in your area? The sloppy I can understand, because up until about 12 or 13 years ago, there was no emphasis or attention given to poomsae. They were just sort of there and no one cared how you did them. But with the opening up of the Kukkiwon Instructor Course as well as the creation of the WTF World Poomsae Championships a few years after that, poomsae is now receiving a lot of attention.

The walking stances come directly from GM LEE Won Kuk, who learned them from FUNAKOSHI Gichin and Yoshitaka Sensei.

 

[dancingalone]

We are fans of Youtube, and yes, we've seen some championship level poomsae. Much of the criticism comes from the so-called walking stance. It has an airy quality about it that many Japanese stylists do not like. It's probably fair to say that they are children of Nakayama, Matayoshi in this respect.

 

[puunui]

We are fans of Youtube, and yes, we've seen some championship level poomsae. Much of the criticism comes from the so-called walking stance. It has an airy quality about it that many Japanese stylists do not like. It's probably fair to say that they are children of Nakayama, Matayoshi in this respect.

As an Okinawan stylist, do you agree with the Japanese point of view? We have several Okinawan based karate practitioners here, and their stances, at least the Shorin Ryu based ones, tend to have more relaxed, higher stances. I am told one of the reasons is that if an Okinawan born practitioner got low and deep in their stances, then they would end up punching people in their ankles, because the people are so short. Being short, and naturally mobile, the higher more mobile stance would suit their build and fighting style, especially against larger armed opponents, in China and Japan.

 

[dancingalone]

As an Okinawan stylist, do you agree with the Japanese point of view?

Actually, no, but I never said I did. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." There are aspects about every style that someone can nitpick at.

I trained for a time in some Chinese arts like cha quan and tai chi quan. They are the antithesis of Japanese hard style karate.

Yet, I can appreciate what the Japanese karate people are looking for and I can understand why they might not like certain aspects of Korean poomsae.

 

[puunui]

Yet, I can appreciate what the Japanese karate people are looking for and I can understand why they might not like certain aspects of Korean poomsae.

I took shotokan for four years and I believe it helped me with the Kukkiwon poomsae, with precision as well as the mentality of high reps for basics. I was going to take Okinawan karate because it does feel different in mentality and focus from what I remember of Shotokan.

 

[dancingalone]

I took shotokan for four years and I believe it helped me with the Kukkiwon poomsae, with precision as well as the mentality of high reps for basics. I was going to take Okinawan karate because it does feel different in mentality and focus from what I remember of Shotokan.

Absolutely. You can learn something valuable from any art. I myself always enjoy the more detailed descriptions of KKW kicking and sparring drills posted here from time to time by some of competitors and/or their parents.

 

[puunui]

Absolutely. You can learn something valuable from any art. I myself always enjoy the more detailed descriptions of KKW kicking and sparring drills posted here from time to time by some of competitors and/or their parents.

I wanted to take Okinawan Karate because one of my good friends has been training there for 35 years. The class is very small and relaxed but not in an undisciplined way. I wanted to learn their kata so I can compare it to the Kukkiwon poomsae. The head instructor has a lot of insight in applications and that sort of stuff which he learned in Okinawa when he lived there. It isn't the reverse engineered stuff that that "75 Down Blocks" guy made up on his own.

I remember trying to be open to his stuff. But then I looked in his book and he showed this push pull strike using a knife hand strike, where the non-blocking hand pulls while the knife hand block strikes the opponent in the neck. I asked him whether that was one of the hidden moves contained in the Okinawan kata and he said yes. Then I told him the Okinawan kata didn't do push pull but instead both arms sweep backwards and then both go forwards, which of course any Taekwondoin would know. Another thing on the down block. He shows all these down blocks with the same push pull motion, but then I saw a video of a very old Shotokan training film which showed that there was no chambering of the non-blocking hand but instead the non blocking hand remained on the hip while the down block ended up being essentially a one armed maneuver.

That kind of stuff really turned me off to the whole hidden pressure point knockout thing popularized by Sensei George Dillman. Now they are doing books finding hidden pressure point stuff in the Taekwondo forms.

I guess this is the sort of thing people like to spend their time doing, but personally I would rather spend my time understanding my own art from the perspective of the pioneers than make this kind of thing up as I went along.

 

[dancingalone]

I remember trying to be open to his stuff. But then I looked in his book and he showed this push pull strike using a knife hand strike, where the non-blocking hand pulls while the knife hand block strikes the opponent in the neck. I asked him whether that was one of the hidden moves contained in the Okinawan kata and he said yes. Then I told him the Okinawan kata didn't do push pull but instead both arms sweep backwards and then both go forwards, which of course any Taekwondoin would know. Another thing on the down block. He shows all these down blocks with the same push pull motion, but then I saw a video of a very old Shotokan training film which showed that there was no chambering of the non-blocking hand but instead the non blocking hand remained on the hip while the down block ended up being essentially a one armed maneuver.

Honestly, all the Shorin-ryu variations I know of do not sweep the knifehand block backwards before going forwards again. It comes up and goes out in a less rigid fashion than Shotokan and the feeling is looser, but you can see the kinship Shotokan has with Shorin-ryu in this respect. The kata Kusanku (Kanku-dai in Shotokan) is a good place to examine this.

This is Seibukan Shorin-ryu.. The performer is Shimabukuro, Zenpo, whose father was a student of Kyan, Chotoku.
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Here is another performance by Shimabukuro of the same kata with a different camera angle. The hands do not sweep backwards before coming forwards, unlike as is typically done in TKD.
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This is Nagazato, Shugoro from Shorinkan Shorin-ryu.
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This is Makishi, Yasuhiro from Matsubayashi-ryu.
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Finally, this is the Shotokan version of the same kata by Kanazawa, who I believe you have some lineage with. Funny but he shows a bigger back swing than the other gentlemen do.
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[dancingalone]

Prior to the Kukkiwon's formation, you had the nine kwans. I'm sure that there was a goodly amount of common goals between them as well as individual goals. What they did prior to the Kukkiwon was still considered taekwondo. Some did not join and so you have Hwang Kee's MDK, which I don't think is called Taekwondo, and of course you have the ITF, from which the ATA and later the ITA branced out from, all calling what they do taekwondo.

By and large, I think that there was more commonality of purpose than division. That commonality is represented in the Kukkiwon curriculum. The differences may be taught over and above the Kukkiwon curriculum. If I want to add hapkido hoshinsul to my taekwondo curriculum I may do so and still be Kukkiwon so long as I am teaching it in addition to the Kukkiwon curriculum.

Daniel

"Some did not join and so you have Hwang Kee's MDK, which I don't think is called Taekwondo,"

Oddly enough in Texas, there's a decent sized contingent of people who call themselves Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do. They're people who left Hwang, Kee at some point and they still practice the Japanese forms albeit with Korean names and terminology.

 

[puunui]

Wow, that was pretty good, not so much on the idea of no sweep back on the knife hand block, but for the fact that there were chun in steps, the follow foot, all kinds of stuff that we use in Taekwondo competition sparring. And there were walking stances in there as well. I just talked to my shorin ryu friend and he said that kusanku is one of main kata of shorin ryu. Maybe I should learn this one. I like the Okinawan version better than the Shotokan version. And you are right Kanazawa Sensei is in my Shotokan lineage, through Sensei Ken Funakoshi.

But I did notice that there was no push pull action on the knife hand blocks. My Shorin Ryu friend said that there wouldn't be a sweep back, at least not on that kata, because the knife hand is a pressing motion, and you want to keep the pressure on. So the Shotokan way of doing it changes the movement and the intention of the move.

 

[puunui]

Oddly enough in Texas, there's a decent sized contingent of people who call themselves Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do. They're people who left Hwang, Kee at some point and they still practice the Japanese forms albeit with Korean names and terminology.

GM HWANG Kee was ahead of his time in many ways. One way is that he set up the Moo Duk Kwan as a democratically run organization, with a Board of Directors to make decisions. He talks about this in his History of Moo Duk Kwan book.

The problem came when GM Hwang refused to join the Taekwondo movement due to his conflicts with General Choi. The other directors did not have the same feelings and so they voted to join and unify under the KTA. GM Hwang got really upset at getting outvoted on this issue that he pulled back and claimed the organization was his. There led the split between the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and the Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan. At least 80% or more of the Moo Duk Kwan members chose to go the Taekwondo route, with very few staying with GM Hwang.

 

[dancingalone]

Wow, that was pretty good, not so much on the idea of no sweep back on the knife hand block, but for the fact that there were chun in steps, the follow foot, all kinds of stuff that we use in Taekwondo competition sparring.

Could you enlighten me as to what 'chun in steps' are?

And there were walking stances in there as well.

The extremely short front stance is very noticeable in Matsubayashi-ryu. They also often rise on fundamental combinations which might be pleasing to ITF TKD people as well. An example would be the very common down block in a left front stance to the left 90 degrees. The second movement is a step in the same direction with a lunge punch in the right front stance, except the stance is very short and there is a visible snap elevation as the performer straightens UP into the punch.

I just talked to my shorin ryu friend and he said that kusanku is one of main kata of shorin ryu. Maybe I should learn this one. I like the Okinawan version better than the Shotokan version. And you are right Kanazawa Sensei is in my Shotokan lineage, through Sensei Ken Funakoshi.

Kusanku is one of the early dan kata usually. The Pinan kata prepare you for it, and there is some speculation that Itosu, 'Anko' created the Pinan kata from out of either Kusanku or Channan, a lost kata.

But I did notice that there was no push pull action on the knife hand blocks. My Shorin Ryu friend said that there wouldn't be a sweep back, at least not on that kata, because the knife hand is a pressing motion, and you want to keep the pressure on. So the Shotokan way of doing it changes the movement and the intention of the move.

<shrugs> It depends on the particular application you are practicing. When I was taught Kusanku originally the description given to me called for the classic shuto strikes. Then when I learned it from my teacher, he showed me the hooking and collapsing interpretations, but certainly I was far more advanced at this stage. Kata applications are mutable, as they should be.

 

[dancingalone]

that there were chun in steps, the follow foot, all kinds of stuff that we use in Taekwondo competition sparring. And there were walking stances in there as well.

By the way, do you feel KKW taekwondo was influenced by Okinawan karate? My thought was that the upright, short stances were adopted because of how TKD sparring competition evolved, rather than because of any purposeful decision to emulate Okinawan karate styles, such as Shorin-ryu.

 

[chrispillertkd]

The extremely short front stance is very noticeable in Matsubayashi-ryu. They also often rise on fundamental combinations which might be pleasing to ITF TKD people as well. An example would be the very common down block in a left front stance to the left 90 degrees. The second movement is a step in the same direction with a lunge punch in the right front stance, except the stance is very short and there is a visible snap elevation as the performer straightens UP into the punch.

While there are some teachniques in ITF Taekwon-Do that are executed while standing up (such as one of the front strikes with the knife-hand in Ul-Ji, the palm hooking blocks in Yoo-Sin and Ju-Che) most hand techniques are performed while dropping the body slightly. There is an initial flexing of the knees to spring the body upwards slightly and then the body is dropped into the strike, punch or block. FWIW.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

Nice clips of Kusanku, dancingalone.

Do you know why most of the performers lean the body slightly forward while performing the first motion where the hands are brought together and then raised above the head?

I notice that Kanazawa does not do this in his kata (and the beginning of his performance is quite similar to Kwang-Gae tul) and imagine this changes the application somewhat. Any idea what the Shotokan application of this move is?

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

Do you know why most of the performers lean the body slightly forward while performing the first motion where the hands are brought together and then raised above the head?

I'm sure there's not any one 'right' answer. The explanations I am aware of include:

Symbolism: Kusanku is supposed to be a heavenly form, so it starts out with an embracing of the earth first before going to the dualistic sky.

Muscular/breathing nuance: You are contracting your abdominal region on this motion before relaxing/expanding them for the up and out movement when the hands separate

Practical Bunkai: The lean forward can be interpreted as a version of the 'sprawl' take down defense

I notice that Kanazawa does not do this in his kata (and the beginning of his performance is quite similar to Kwang-Gae tul) and imagine this changes the application somewhat. Any idea what the Shotokan application of this move is?

No idea about the Shotokan application, but you'll notice they generally keep their torsos straight and centered over the hips at all times.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I'm sure there's not any one 'right' answer. The explanations I am aware of include:

Symbolism: Kusanku is supposed to be a heavenly form, so it starts out with an embracing of the earth first before going to the dualistic sky.

After hearing all the talk by some of the bunkai experts about how all movements in kata have I kind of assumed there were no symbolic movements in Okinawan kata. (In fact, I was told that was the case by a pretty well known "expert" but that's another story.) Not that symbolism rules out an actual combat or self-defense application, of course. A friend of mine who is a CMA practitioner told me about a movement in White Eyebrow kung-fu that symbolizes a monk stroking his beard, but its martial application is a block, for example. But this particular gentleman seemed quite adamant.

Muscular/breathing nuance: You are contracting your abdominal region on this motion before relaxing/expanding them for the up and out movement when the hands separate

I know Sanchin concentrates a lot on breathing. Does this type of breathing relate to that found in Sanchin at all? Or are there different breathing methods found in Okinawan karate, depending on what one is doing at the time?

Practical Bunkai: The lean forward can be interpreted as a version of the 'sprawl' take down defense

I've seen some Isshin Ryu bunkai where the movement is used to keep an attacker at bay or impede his movement forwards and keep him out of front kick range but a variation of "the sprawl" seems interesting. I presume this application would depend on changing the footing quite a bit since the stance as it is in the kata wouldn't be very stable against an oncoming attacker.

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

After hearing all the talk by some of the bunkai experts about how all movements in kata have I kind of assumed there were no symbolic movements in Okinawan kata. (In fact, I was told that was the case by a pretty well known "expert" but that's another story.) Not that symbolism rules out an actual combat or self-defense application, of course. A friend of mine who is a CMA practitioner told me about a movement in White Eyebrow kung-fu that symbolizes a monk stroking his beard, but its martial application is a block, for example. But this particular gentleman seemed quite adamant.

Some lineages are more prone to have symbolism than others. Nagamine Sensei for example of Matsubayashi-ryu was also an Okinawan folk dance enthusiast and he reportedly adopted some movements from dancing as a result, though I can't think of a solid example off the top of my head. Nagamine is known to have sanitized the lives of some of the elder Okinawan karate experts in his book Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters and he may have deliberately obscured some of the more violent techniques contained within kata when he became a teacher himself.

I know Sanchin concentrates a lot on breathing. Does this type of breathing relate to that found in Sanchin at all?

Not too much from my training perspective. Sanchin is primarily about building strength and the ability ultimately to accept strikes to the body and yet emerge unharmed from them. This particular expansion in Kusanku is more about a dynamic burst of power.

Or are there different breathing methods found in Okinawan karate, depending on what one is doing at the time?

Yes, there can be. There is cleansing breathing. There is the reverse breathing, similar to yogic practices. There is martial breathing meant to create power in conjunction with your muscle contraction. Ki building...sanchin/iron shirt...

And they all are based on simple in-out cycles at first.

I've seen some Isshin Ryu bunkai where the movement is used to keep an attacker at bay or impede his movement forwards and keep him out of front kick range but a variation of "the sprawl" seems interesting. I presume this application would depend on changing the footing quite a bit since the stance as it is in the kata wouldn't be very stable against an oncoming attacker.

One of the principles for extracting useful bunkai is to not get too caught up in the embusen or floor pattern of the kata. This maxim would seem to apply in this case.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

GM HWANG Kee was ahead of his time in many ways. One way is that he set up the Moo Duk Kwan as a democratically run organization, with a Board of Directors to make decisions. He talks about this in his History of Moo Duk Kwan book.

The problem came when GM Hwang refused to join the Taekwondo movement due to his conflicts with General Choi. The other directors did not have the same feelings and so they voted to join and unify under the KTA. GM Hwang got really upset at getting outvoted on this issue that he pulled back and claimed the organization was his. There led the split between the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and the Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan. At least 80% or more of the Moo Duk Kwan members chose to go the Taekwondo route, with very few staying with GM Hwang.

Yup, I am of the Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan lineage myself. Although, I'm not exactly sure where my KJN split, because we still practice all of the Shotokan form sets; not the KKW forms. The Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan/ Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan/ Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan has underwent so many splinters over the years that the splinters look slightly different from one another. For instance, we do not practice the "Chinese influenced forms" Yuk Ro Hyungs, and Chil Sung Hyungs. Some of the Shotokan forms look "softer" in some splinters of the Moo Duk Kwan; Look at GM Chun Sik KIM's ITF.

 

[Archtkd]

This is Seibukan Shorin-ryu.. The performer is Shimabukuro, Zenpo, whose father was a student of Kyan, Chotoku. [/yt]

Thanks. This was very nice. Great to watch and see so many elements of that kata injected into KKW poomsae.