TKD Pioneers Were Not Monolithic

[dancingalone]

I've been reading the many new TKD threads with great interest. It's nice to have some good discussion on the board and I hope it keeps up.

One thing I would like to understand better for myself is what exactly is a TKD pioneer? Is it a very select group, such as the kwan heads only and perhaps their senior students. Are it the students who were actually practicing during the Tae Kwon Do/Tae Soo Do/ Kong Soo Do name wars even if they didn't hold leadership positions? Do you have to be part of the KKW or the ITF to qualify as a 'pioneer'?

The answer has a lot to do with whether TKD should have a united vision for the future or not. As I see it, the people I consider to be TKD pioneers were a diverse group of men with sometimes contradictory goals. We've seen in the other discussions that some of them even hated each other, such as Hwang Kee vs. General Choi or General Choi vs. a bunch of other guys.

So the themes we see hashed out today such as

self-defense vs. sport
Japanese forms vs. 'Korean' forms
'traditional' vs. nontraditional

aren't anything new. They are quarrels we inherited from our seniors and just as they never settled the issues decisively, so too is it impossible to reconcile them all to the satisfaction of every one.

 

[msmitht]

A Pioneer of TKD was someone who left his country to give tkd to the world.
My late GM, Moon Ku Baek, was a direct student of Hwang Kee. When the house split (tkd/tsd) he took an offer from General Choi's new group and went to Colorado. There he tought Charles Serrif (who he promoted to 2nd Dan) and others before moving to Florida, Ohio and eventually San Diego.
There was no ITF or KKW at that time. The Kwans still ruled.

 

[terryl965]

Yea you can say the ones that left there country to give TKD to the world but remember so many of them was not even a Black Belt when they got on the plane and then was a Master when it landed. Not saying any particular person but we have all heard of these story's. I believe the pioneers of TKD would have to ahve been the original kwan leaders, but then again that is just my opinion.

 

[puunui]

One thing I would like to understand better for myself is what exactly is a TKD pioneer? Is it a very select group, such as the kwan heads only and perhaps their senior students. Are it the students who were actually practicing during the Tae Kwon Do/Tae Soo Do/ Kong Soo Do name wars even if they didn't hold leadership positions? Do you have to be part of the KKW or the ITF to qualify as a 'pioneer'?

Everyone has their own definition, but to me a "Taekwondo pioneer" (a phrase I coined and started using by the way, before anyone else, at least on the internet), is someone who began their training in the 1940's or earlier and actively participated and contributed to Taekwondo's development in Korea. I don't not consider those who contributed outside Korea to be pioneers in the sense that I am speaking about. The pioneers include Kwan Jang but also other senior students who played active roles in the shaping of Taekwondo. If you were involved in creating the Palgwae, Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae for example, or developing the steps or other methodology of modern sparring, or being there when the hogu was brought from Japan and its use developed in Korea, or setting up the organization. Or any of a number of ways people contributed to the development of Taekwondo.

The answer has a lot to do with whether TKD should have a united vision for the future or not. As I see it, the people I consider to be TKD pioneers were a diverse group of men with sometimes contradictory goals. We've seen in the other discussions that some of them even hated each other, such as Hwang Kee vs. General Choi or General Choi vs. a bunch of other guys.
So the themes we see hashed out today such as
self-defense vs. sport
Japanese forms vs. 'Korean' forms
'traditional' vs. nontraditional
aren't anything new. They are quarrels we inherited from our seniors and just as they never settled the issues decisively, so too is it impossible to reconcile them all to the satisfaction of every one.

I would say the goals were the same; it's just that certain people like GM HWANG Kee, Dr. YOON Kwe Byung and General Choi wanted to do it differently than the others.

They all wanted to develop the competition aspects and were not opposed. For example, GM Hwang was one of the first to host tournaments and he and Dr. Yoon went on the first exchange trip to Japan where they brought back the first four hogu. General Choi also was interested in "sport" as evidenced by the fact that he tried very hard to get the ITF recognized as the IOC International Federation for Taekwondo.

Also GM Hwang and General Choi created their own "korean" forms, as did the Kukkiwon.

The difference is they "lost" so to speak. But if people want to follow GM Hwang or General Choi and adopt their teachings, that's fine with me.

What I am attempting to do is explain or publicize what the Kukki Taekwondo pioneers did, and why, so that those of us who are part of the Kukki Taekwondo world can hopefully begin to see what the Taekwondo jigsaw puzzle looked like, from their perspective. After all, they created it, and so we should at least try a little to understand what the process was and why they did what they did.

If people want to disagree with what they did then that is their business. But at least they will hopefully realize what they are doing is not what the pioneers intended or wanted. What happens then is these "rebels" end up in the same position as GM Hwang, GM Son, and General Choi, which is outsiders looking in, excluded from the movement. that's what happens when you refuse Kukkiwon certification, or fail to do the Kukkiwon poomsae according to Kukkiwon standards, or overly emphasize face punching in your sparring.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Wait, hold on here. Are you really going to argue that Gen. Choi wasn't teaching true TKD in the same post that you are saying the man is a pioneer of the art? To say that those that followed pioneers such as GM Son, that followed GM Kang Suh Chong, or or that follow the later non KKW master such as Jhoon Rhee and Hee Il Cho, are to be 'excluded'? Please please please tell me that is not what you are saying.

 

[puunui]

Wait, hold on here. Are you really going to argue that Gen. Choi wasn't teaching true TKD in the same post that you are saying the man is a pioneer of the art? To say that those that followed pioneers such as GM Son, that followed GM Kang Suh Chong, or or that follow the later non KKW master such as Jhoon Rhee and Hee Il Cho, are to be 'excluded'? Please please please tell me that is not what you are saying.

What I am saying is that they were excluded from Kukki Taekwondo, by their own actions. Whether they teach "true" Taekwondo, I guess people can argue about that one all day long. I know there are people out there who feel much more strongly about that issue than I do. Personally, I think we all fall short in one way or another teaching what is the ideal. No one is perfect.

And GM Hee Il CHO has adopted the Kukkiwon poomsae and is Kukkiwon certified, so I would consider him a Kukkiwon certified master instructor. He even wrote books on the Kukkiwon poomsae.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I knew he wrote books for both KKW and ITF form sets, I did not know that he was KKW certified. I also know that he runs his own org, and thought that doing so and not being part of the WTF would exclude him from the KKW.

 

[dancingalone]

I would say the goals were the same; it's just that certain people like GM HWANG Kee, Dr. YOON Kwe Byung and General Choi wanted to do it differently than the others.

I'm having a hard time reconciling that picture, but it's probably because things have turned out so poorly. I can accept that the majority thought using the popularity of sport was a good idea to sell TKD as Korea's gift to the world. I do question however whether the current game as played in the Olympics is what they really wanted to create.

They all wanted to develop the competition aspects and were not opposed. For example, GM Hwang was one of the first to host tournaments and he and Dr. Yoon went on the first exchange trip to Japan where they brought back the first four hogu. General Choi also was interested in "sport" as evidenced by the fact that he tried very hard to get the ITF recognized as the IOC International Federation for Taekwondo.

What about the men that kept the Japanese forms? Like Kim, Pyung Soo of Houston or Rhee, Kang who settled in Memphis? I definitely get the feeling that competition was much less important to both of them, although certainly they participated in the independent karate tournaments in the past (I want to say the seventies were the heyday for this).

I don't think either of these men bought into the TKD unification movement ultimately nor do I think they fit the "taekwondo IS sport" assertion that you make.

Also GM Hwang and General Choi created their own "korean" forms, as did the Kukkiwon.

Arguably, the Chil Sungs are the most 'Korean', IMO. I see little departure from the Heian forms in the gup-level Choi forms or in the Palgwes. I'll leave my remarks about the Tae Geuks for another time.

The difference is they "lost" so to speak. But if people want to follow GM Hwang or General Choi and adopt their teachings, that's fine with me.

Do you believe TKD, whichever way you care to spell it, is an appropriate moniker for either faction? Or would you strip the name from the Moo Duk Kwan TKD people as well as the ITF people?

What I am attempting to do is explain or publicize what the Kukki Taekwondo pioneers did, and why, so that those of us who are part of the Kukki Taekwondo world can hopefully begin to see what the Taekwondo jigsaw puzzle looked like, from their perspective. After all, they created it, and so we should at least try a little to understand what the process was and why they did what they did.

I think this is a good thing to do. Especially since you have this kind of access.

If people want to disagree with what they did then that is their business. But at least they will hopefully realize what they are doing is not what the pioneers intended or wanted. What happens then is these "rebels" end up in the same position as GM Hwang, GM Son, and General Choi, which is outsiders looking in, excluded from the movement. that's what happens when you refuse Kukkiwon certification, or fail to do the Kukkiwon poomsae according to Kukkiwon standards, or overly emphasize face punching in your sparring.

Well, I come from a lineage of one of these outsider groups. Surely no one would deny that Jhoon Rhee is a pioneer, considering he's widely called the 'Father of America Tae Kwon Do'. Mr. Rhee has been doing his own thing for a long time, even when he was part of the ITF. Perhaps it's a case of not knowing what you are missing, but I've never felt like a lesser martial artist because my own brand of TKD is not a 'unified' one.

 

[puunui]

I knew he wrote books for both KKW and ITF form sets, I did not know that he was KKW certified. I also know that he runs his own org, and thought that doing so and not being part of the WTF would exclude him from the KKW.

Maybe other people might use that stuff as a basis to exclude GM Cho. However, I do not believe the pioneers would exclude him, because their definition is very broad and all encompassing. Everyone should be included.

 

[puunui]

I'm having a hard time reconciling that picture, but it's probably because things have turned out so poorly. I can accept that the majority thought using the popularity of sport was a good idea to sell TKD as Korea's gift to the world. I do question however whether the current game as played in the Olympics is what they really wanted to create.

The pioneers wanted to create a unique martial art that emphasized kicking, which fits with the culture and history of Korea. I believe that they disagree as to how some of the juniors are doing things to destroy their work, but overall I believe that they are happy with what they created. Taekwondo started from a small group of practitioners in a war torn third world country to become the most practiced martial art in the world.

What about the men that kept the Japanese forms? Like Kim, Pyung Soo of Houston or Rhee, Kang who settled in Memphis? I definitely get the feeling that competition was much less important to both of them, although certainly they participated in the independent karate tournaments in the past (I want to say the seventies were the heyday for this).

I don't know about GM Kang Rhee, but I know that GM KIM Pyung Soo has Kukkiwon rank and he even refereed at a USTU event which was televised on ESPN, the US Olympic Sports Festival when it was held in Houston. As for them keeping the Japanese (and in GM Kim's case, Chinese) forms, like I said, everyone is in a state of noncompliance, it's just a matter of degree, some more than others, but we are all Taekwondo.

I don't think either of these men bought into the TKD unification movement ultimately nor do I think they fit the "taekwondo IS sport" assertion that you make.

They didn't buy into it because they wanted to control it. If they were in control, I am sure they would have been all for it.

Do you believe TKD, whichever way you care to spell it, is an appropriate moniker for either faction? Or would you strip the name from the Moo Duk Kwan TKD people as well as the ITF people?

It's a start that we call what we do by the same name. The next stage is to get everyone certified under the Kukkiwon. And the final stage is to have everyone have a unified curriculum. That is how the pioneers approached unification, and like I said, we are all in a state of non-compliance. Some people are still in the earlier stages. It might take a generation or two before they come around. What I have noticed is that the students of the most stubborn anti-sport, anti-Kukkiwon practitioners often times become the most loyal supporters and believers. We just need patience.

Well, I come from a lineage of one of these outsider groups. Surely no one would deny that Jhoon Rhee is a pioneer, considering he's widely called the 'Father of America Tae Kwon Do'. Mr. Rhee has been doing his own thing for a long time, even when he was part of the ITF. Perhaps it's a case of not knowing what you are missing, but I've never felt like a lesser martial artist because my own brand of TKD is not a 'unified' one.

And that is ok. But at least you recognize that your Taekwondo isn't a part of the unified branch. Perhaps one or more of your students or your student's students will feel differently. If so, let them know that they can call me anytime, and I will do my best to get them squared away.

 

[leadleg]

I'm having a hard time reconciling that picture, but it's probably because things have turned out so poorly. I can accept that the majority thought using the popularity of sport was a good idea to sell TKD as Korea's gift to the world. I do question however whether the current game as played in the Olympics is what they really wanted to create

If you look back in history the Koreans did not have sword dueling as they thought it barbaric, I believe in the same vein sparring full contact without it turning ugly or barbaric would have to have the no punching to the face,grabbing kicking to the groin......etc. If you look at the games they played in early history it included kicking one opponent out of a circle, I believe WTF style sparring is very Korean.
It is obviously not perfect,and practicioners will find every advantage to bend rules to win. That is why you see the rules changing so often,partly for spectators and partly to keep the original idea of kicking to win. Also everytime the athletes and coaches figure out how to win without doing much kicking the rules have to be changed. I like the changes,it keeps the game from getting stale, I also get the frustration factor.
Of course there is also the thing about decisions being made in commitee,so much give and take. I see the sport trying to keep up with the computer age and commend them on that, wireless scoring,trying to get everyone to use perfect techniques, I find it exciting and refreshing.

 

[puunui]

If you look back in history the Koreans did not have sword dueling as they thought it barbaric, I believe in the same vein sparring full contact without it turning ugly or barbaric would have to have the no punching to the face,grabbing kicking to the groin......etc. If you look at the games they played in early history it included kicking one opponent out of a circle, I believe WTF style sparring is very Korean.

One thing we need to understand is that in Korea, to punch someone in the face is a very barbaric act, especially if you are an artisan, an educated person who knows how to write, or someone who does fine things with one's hands, because you can break your hand and then you cannot do your job. So they would much rather kick you than punch you.

This is difficult to understand if you come from a culture where it is common to fight by punching someone in the face. You will only get it if you try to understand Taekwondo from the Korean cultural perspective, instead of one's own "they speak funny english in england" perspective.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I would never exclude GM Cho from a list of the pioneers, I simply did not think that you could hold KKW rank and run an org that is not WTF.


A question, then - Is it possible to hold KKW dan rank and not belong to WTF or perform WTF forms?

 

[puunui]

I would never exclude GM Cho from a list of the pioneers, I simply did not think that you could hold KKW rank and run an org that is not WTF.

I was thinking of GM CHO Hee Il more as a Kukki Taekwondoin more than a pioneer. Although I have to say that GM Cho inspired a whole generation to train their jump back kick doing the splits like he did.

A question, then - Is it possible to hold KKW dan rank and not belong to WTF or perform WTF forms?

Sure, a lot of practitioners have Kukkiwon certification and yet do not know or teach the Kukkiwon poomsae. Also, technically individuals cannot belong to the WTF; the only "members" or Member National Associations. Also the WTF does not have any forms; they use the Kukkiwon poomsae at their poomsae events.

 

[terryl965]

Well the WTF have re-done the poomsae to make it more arobic like, they won't the sport aspect in them. They are not really into the actual applications of said poomsae.


On another subject matter people really need to understand the WTF watches over the sport competition of TKD. The KKW has a limited curriculum for people to follow and issue poom/Dan ranks and keep the data base for the world.

 

[leadleg]

@ Puunui That is strange as the minimal requirments for KKW rank are poomse.
@ Terry I do not see this from the WTF poomse

 

[bluewaveschool]

I was thinking of GM CHO Hee Il more as a Kukki Taekwondoin more than a pioneer. Although I have to say that GM Cho inspired a whole generation to train their jump back kick doing the splits like he did.




Sure, a lot of practitioners have Kukkiwon certification and yet do not know or teach the Kukkiwon poomsae. Also, technically individuals cannot belong to the WTF; the only "members" or Member National Associations. Also the WTF does not have any forms; they use the Kukkiwon poomsae at their poomsae events.

GM Cho's kicking prowess was borderline ridiculous, back in the day. I've seen video of his back spin heel kick breaking a board tossed mid-air. I've done a single board with a vertical knife hand strike a few times, but that kick is just crazy.

 

[bluewaveschool]

So wait... KKW TKD has it's own set of forms, but will rank persons that do not do their form set. This seems odd to me. How does that work?

 

[terryl965]

Because there are still people that teach the original poomsae, as well teach the original version of Koryo. Remember the Tae Gueks came around in the 70's, even though they are the most practice poomsae they are not the only ones. The last thing I will mention is all you need is a certified KKW 4th and they can sign off for you up until your 3rd and the KKW has no way of knowing if you really know anything. They do not police there members at all.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Huh... still seems strange to me. I suppose after 3rd, you better know KKW poomse if you want to go higher?