TKD and Everyone Else
- Thread starter ellies
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You're preaching to the choir, ellies!
Like Kacey has said you are peaching to the choir and also the next couple of churches over as well.
It's the most popular art in the States--that's going to get it some criticism right there!
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
The fact that people care enough about it to bash it so much is a sure sign that it is a very good style. Every major style goes through this - Karate had its moments (and arguably still does), JKD drew the ire of many a classical purist, and even MMA and BJJ have detractors by the boatload. You see, the reason why people go out of their way to insult TKD, or any style for that matter, is because they are insecure in their own art and deep down inside they feel like they must come over to another art, but they live in denial and react by insulting. It happens across the board, even Taekwondoin engage in this behavior towards other styles (*cough* Muay Thai *cough* *cough*). Don't worry about what "everybody else" says about your style. The only thing that matters is what you say about your style. If you are truly secure in what you do, then you won't care about what everyone else is doing, well, at least on that one level - you kinda have to keep an eye on them just in case you get to spar with them :wink2:. TKD and Everyone Else? You could just as easily substitue TKD for any style and the logic would still hold true. TKD just happens to be one of the most popular styles today so its criticisms will stick out far more than the criticisms of the other styles. Trust me - I have done Shotokan for 4 years and to this day people still tell me how impractical it is and how stiff and rigid it is. The funny thing is that they have never trained in it themselves, and if they had trained in it then they would realize that the stiffness is only at the beginner level and that the style loosens up at the higher levels.
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
I am not a TKD person but I know exactly how you feel. I practice bagua, a kind of 'kung fu' and we have been through all the negativity just like TKD. I feel your pain.
You got it in one, SG. I'd rep you for that, if you weren't still on my current cycle. This is something I've felt for years—people who knock other MA styles do so because at some level they don't know if they could hold their own in a down-and-dirty street confrontation with a confident attacker. And the reason for that, of course, is because most people don't train for such confrontations, so regardless of the style, they're going to be insecure—because the style isn't the crucial part, it's the stress-testing under realistic conditions, over a long period of time, that lets you turn the combat potential of the system into an immediately usable skill. Most folks don't get that kind of training in their MA schools and don't know how to go about organizing it themselves—and no wonder; it's a very difficult thing to do. Much easier to bash the other guy's art, alas.
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It's the Olympics that have quote-unquote "ruined" it. If it went back to the way it used to be taught before a lot of schools adopted the Olympic/competition rules it would go back to being a perfectly good system( ask the ROK Marines).
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
not always
I despise MMA and a gag everytime i hear "BJJ"
why?
not because I am insecure in my arts
i shudder when i hear MMA or BJJ because i think it is a very FLAWED system for self defense, yet when you try to point that out, people invariably try to shove the UFC (a flawed and stacked contest from the 1st one till now) in your face. It gets old. But then, i dont go out of my way to trash them either. So maybe i dont fit what you were talking about.
I don't want to put words in SG's mouth, but I suspect he was talking about people whose natural home is The Site Which Must Not Be Named, where the favorite activity seems to be pissing on every single traditional MA in turn. Voldesite peopleand there are lots of them, judging by what you see on the netseem to feel the need to channel all of their life's frustrations into cheap sarcasm, macho strutting and 24/7 hostility to most of the MA community. I think SG had people like that in mind, rather than anyone here...
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
Bingo! Something about angry bovines are something :lol:. Twin Fist, I see what you are saying, though. The best thing to do is to not worry about it or let it get under your skin. The truth of the matter will hold true over time, no need to try to point it out to them if they don't want to listen. Besides, you are not their teacher and it is not your responsibility to get through to them. All that you can do is offer your opinion on the matter and they either take it or leave it. We have all had to deal with the "UFC Pwns All Crowd" - usually it is the ones who don't participate in MMA, BJJ, or UFC who shove it in your face because they are ignorant and they feel insecure next to you because they can't perform the feats that you can perform. It all comes back to insecurity. Most (definitely not all) of the people who actually participate in MMA, BJJ, or UFC respect *all* arts and would rather focus on exploring different styles to add to their own game. The fact that you don't go out of your way to trash them while they don't show the same regard for you speaks highly of your own character :asian:. Don't worry about what they say - what you are doing works for you and that is all that really matters.
Unfortunately, the most common demonstrations of Taekwondo tend also to be the worst examples:
8 year old black belts
Multicolored uniforms
XMA and Hollywood flash masquerading as Taekwondo
Instructors who use Taekwondo as a way to profit and make money
Keep in mind, those examples do not define Taekwondo, they are what people see. Real Taekwondo is not flashy. It's basics done over and over when no one is around, basic kicking, forms, drills to increase power, and many hours of self practice and helping students. I can't count how many hours I've spent hitting the bag or practicing forms or basics when nobody was around to watch-which is the way I like it. Traditional Taekwondo practice is done in solitude, much like the tiger that symbolizes Korea.
But that doesn't draw public interest, earn compliments, or sign contracts. Therefore, it doesn't get much attention.
8 year old black belts
Multicolored uniforms
XMA and Hollywood flash masquerading as Taekwondo
Instructors who use Taekwondo as a way to profit and make money
Keep in mind, those examples do not define Taekwondo, they are what people see. Real Taekwondo is not flashy. It's basics done over and over when no one is around, basic kicking, forms, drills to increase power, and many hours of self practice and helping students. I can't count how many hours I've spent hitting the bag or practicing forms or basics when nobody was around to watch-which is the way I like it. Traditional Taekwondo practice is done in solitude, much like the tiger that symbolizes Korea.
But that doesn't draw public interest, earn compliments, or sign contracts. Therefore, it doesn't get much attention.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I use to train TKD... Now I train Taijiquan
Train taiji for a bit and then we can talk about criticism and cynicism :uhyeah:
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
Exactly! Most TKD that the public sees is the flashy stuff that will get people interested in doing the art, and most schools cater to this type of misconception through their own training to keep people interested in their art. Don't even get me started on the 8 year old blackbelts - that alone is responsible for a large swath of the negative pub that TKD receives. However, it makes the soccer moms happy and keeps the money flowing into the school, so it probably won't be going away anytime soon. *sigh* if only Traditional Taekwondo schools were far more prevelant, or least if there was far more balance between sport and traditional schools...
Not extremely soon, but I see the handwriting all over the wall in a number of different areas. All of the recent work on combat applications of TKD forms; the incipient formation of new TKD orgs devoted to realistic TKD training (as per Stuart A's thread/announcement), and the inclusion of TKD within Iain Abernethy's bunkai-jutsu network, devoted to hard-edged SD analysis and reality-based training, are all signs of a major change in the wind... as are our own conversations here on MT. Think about it: can we be the only ones who are on this particular page so far as TKD goes? I think there's reason to be very hopeful that the near future is going to see a revival of 'old-school' TKD (and an accompany major split within the organization structure of the art, inevitably, as those of us who want TKD to be a practical fighting skill wind up going our own way...)
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
*Sigh* I hope that you are right, Exile. I was being cynical in the other post, but I hope that things work out in a way that allows us to put this "age" of Mcdojang TKD behind us and look back on it as an aberration in light of realistic TKD training. It may mean less schools because a lot of the elements that give TKD such an outrageous image will stop training in it because it is no longer flashy or cool, but hey, TKD could surely use quality over quantity at this point, and I wouldn't mind seeing one less TKD school on the street corner if it means that the overall quality of TKD instruction will improve. We will always have some Mcdojangs out there, every style does, but hopefully there will be far less when the paradigm completes its shift. I really love what Stuart Anslow is doing with his work, and in my humble opinion, I think that it represents one of the new, more positive developments within the TKD community.
I hate the detractors as much as anyone else, not because they critisise our art, but because they cannot difieniate between what IS Taekwon-do and what is a club/org making TKD easier/funkier/nicer whatever and thus watering it down.. but... Taekwon-do is its own worst enemy in this respect.
If 49 out of 50 clubs do what the previous posts says (multicolored doboks, catering for soccer mums, giving out black belts to 8year olds etc.) and 1 doesnt... the 1 is lost in the sea of dispare and the tiny little voice saying "no no no" is rarely heard above the rumble of porches and students.
People see what they see and if the TKD world only shows them that sort of stuff, that becomes the definition of what TKD is. Its not MY TKD, but it IS TKD. Ghandi said it right, you have to be the change you want to see in the world.
Taekwon-do lost its way (as a collective) many years ago and has been treading that path ever since, I hate being lumped into that pile but I do TKD too, so I am. It wasnt the Olympics, it was the almight dollar, the worlds most popular martial art became a money spinner because of its popularity... a victim of its own success really!
Stuart
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
I think you have bullseyed the greatest problem. The pursuit of money has brought TKD to commit multi-coloured dobok, soccer mum suicide. It cannot persist as it is, sooner or later something is going to happen that pushes the powers that be to make some hard decisions.
jim777
Master Black Belt
I have to admit you nailed that one on the head. In a battle of most abused Taiji beats TKD. How can you POSSIBLY defend yourself moving 0.0008 miles an hour? :lol:
Some small part is jealousy. Most martial arts do have not enjoyed the wide popularity of Tae Kwon Do. And most of us can only dream at what they might have done had a government made our arts' promotion a national priority. A bigger part is that Tae Kwon Do has become the most prominent martial art out there. If you're more visible you get more attention both good and bad.
A large part is the mistrust of what TKD did to get there. And in that we see our own sins reflected. It's beyond doubt that Tae Kwon Do's official history is a tissue of self-serving lies. We've beaten that horse until the last fat maggot chewing on the corpse was squashed flat. The sport has come to dominate the entire martial art. Popularity and the creation of a mass-market product were valued above all. Dissent was crushed even among the founders in order to create one unified voice. The system moved on to cheap gimmicks like red, white and blue uniforms, six year olds with instructor rankings, infinite testing, junior-grade brainwashing, gymnastics passed off as martial arts and a dozen other things.
And do you know what? Almost all martial arts organizations would have given their left gonad and thrown their aging grandparents off the sled if they thought they could get the same results. What we are secretly ashamed of in ourselves we condem most loudly in others. As the old limerick goes:
A large part is the mistrust of what TKD did to get there. And in that we see our own sins reflected. It's beyond doubt that Tae Kwon Do's official history is a tissue of self-serving lies. We've beaten that horse until the last fat maggot chewing on the corpse was squashed flat. The sport has come to dominate the entire martial art. Popularity and the creation of a mass-market product were valued above all. Dissent was crushed even among the founders in order to create one unified voice. The system moved on to cheap gimmicks like red, white and blue uniforms, six year olds with instructor rankings, infinite testing, junior-grade brainwashing, gymnastics passed off as martial arts and a dozen other things.
And do you know what? Almost all martial arts organizations would have given their left gonad and thrown their aging grandparents off the sled if they thought they could get the same results. What we are secretly ashamed of in ourselves we condem most loudly in others. As the old limerick goes:
