Thrusting Prongs

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
Unless they are a former wrestler.:shrug:

Re-read my last sentence dude.

 

[Shiatsu]

I did, what I am saying is that if someone already has you in this position, they aren't standing still, and there is not much you can do to stop it:asian:

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
Unless they are a former wrestler.:shrug:

This post just got my "wheels" turning. One of the things you are working on here during this tech. is creating distance, establishing your base, bracing angle, checking the opponents height zone, etc. many etc. at that. If you don't like the thumb thrust then use palm heel strikes to the sides of the pelvis bone to drive the hips back. We gain serious momentum while employing the thrusting knee strike and being followed by the inward elbow what's not to like about this tech? Besides the thumb or palm heel thrust you break the hold with the opposing forces movement of your arms. "Anchoring" your opponents body down to stay in line with the knee and elbow strike.

I don't know if that helped you out any but I'd like to see Mr. Conatser's view point or Doc's view on this technique as well.

Now I'm going to go eat my dinner.:shrug:

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Maltair
I'm with Shiatsu on this one.
In our school, we are taught to use our prongs (aka chicken beaks-fingers and thumbs togeather) to the kidney, or to palm strike the kidneys. My Sifu even showed me how you can grab the skin over the kidneys and twist, boy that hurts.

The shot to the groin or the pressure point is a hard target to hit effectivly when in close quarters like that.

Your thumbs should be braced (pressed to the inside of your fists with very little protrusion) for backup mass. The tek is thrusting prongs not blinding sacrifice. Your thumb strikes begin structural breakdown and cancel height and depth upon execution of the thumb strikes. Keep your chin tucked to avoid the unintentional head butt.

The object of the first movement (opposising forces with the prong strike and forward bow) is to close him down at the hinge. Now his balance point has been moved and so has his weight distribution. He has lost control and his body is to be used against him for the remainder of the tek. It is a tek designed in the fourth range so there are a lot of constituents of contact manipulation that when used in accordance with the design of the tek make it 1) easy and 2) smooth.

Thrusting Prongs is an exercise in leverage and becoming acquanted with those naunces- in fact that is what make orange a difficult belt level. There are many standup grappling counters throughout the orange material.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
I did, what I am saying is that if someone already has you in this position, they aren't standing still, and there is not much you can do to stop it:asian:

Prefix with a head butt.

How comfortable are you standing up with someone in this position? Maybe you should grab back bounce them off of you left or right knee before doing this tech.

Also remember too that you are in an over/under situation here with the hand positioning. I know what I might do if "I" were in this situation but you need to come up with some spontaneous situation that will work for you.

Since you have nothing in your profile I have no idea how much experience you have so all I can offer is what I know and have tested that works for me.

Best of Luck.:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
If someone already has you in this position, they aren't standing still, and there is not much you can do to stop it:asian:

Ok, if that is the case, what are you looking for?

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
Like I said it is one of the techniques that I would like to see done at full speed against a opponent that is non compliant.

I'll be happy to show you how it works if you come round my house

Ian.

 

[rmcrobertson]

OK, got that. Now, could you tell me what the opening of this techniques has to do with making anyone "retreat?"

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
OK, got that. Now, could you tell me what the opening of this techniques has to do with making anyone "retreat?"

Are you talking about on the defense?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
I would like to see it done at full speed, with a non compliant attacker before I believe that two thumb prongs will make the attacker retreat.

When discussing technique variations..... we must discuss one version at a time. No matter which one we choose to start with ... we need to establish exactly what the attack is for and then discuss if the way we are describing it will work or not. Then, do the same with the next etc., so as to compare differences and see if there is something there of benefit for all.

Shiatsu, as I read the 3 or 4 different variations that have been outlined, they all seem to have merit, however, you ask to see it done at full speed with a "non compliant attacker".

This request will quite possibly change any of the discussed techniques into a "WHAT IF" scenario and thus have quite different results or versions.

Not that this is bad or anything but we need to compare apples to apples, otherwise confusion and misunderstandings could result, not to mention you are changing the circumstances for probably most of the "ideal" versions of these techniques.

Also, I didn't see where any had referred to a retreat.... or did I miss it somewhere?

:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by MisterMike
Does anyone know what situations this attack would actually happen, I know there are a few, but how realistic do you think it is to begin with?

LOL, you ask a question then immediately answer your own question.?~! Whats up with that I think it is quite realisitc to begin with.

You mean to tell me that it is not realistic to think that someone "might possibly" grab you in a front bearhug (arms free or pinned)? C'mon, you are just testing us with that question aren't you.....:rofl:

Consider this version.........
THRUSTING PRONGS (Front bear hug -- arms pinned)

1. Step back with your right foot toward 6 o'clock into a left forward bow (facing 12 o'clock). (You will probably modify it because of the pressure of the bear hug). Have only your right foot move back and not the upper body. Simultaneously thrust both of your thumbs (keeping thumbs together) up and to your opponent's groin. (Your opponent should bend forward at the waist as well as move his feet back and away from you.)

2. Now strike your opponent's groin with your right knee as your left hand circles over and on top of (clockwise) your opponent's right arm (forming the shape of a crane), and pins (with the assistance of your anchored left elbow) your opponent's right arm to you. Simultaneously with the above two actions **** your right hand to your right hip as a clearing check of your opponent's left arm, as well as in preparation for the next strike. (Your knee strike should magnify the damage to your opponent's groin.)

3. With your right knee in his groin, immediately deliver a right knife-edge kick to the inside of your opponent's left shin. (This action should force your opponent's left leg outward.)

4. Scrape your opponent's shin with your right foot, and convert the scrape into a right stomp to your opponent's left instep. This is done while simultaneously delivering a right inward horizontal elbow strike to the right side of your opponent's face or ribs (depending on the size of your opponent). (This strike should drive your opponent's head up and away from you.)

5. Right front crossover, and cover out toward
7:30.

NOTES ON: THRUSTING PRONGS

1. NAME: "Prongs" symbolically refer to thumbs. The name of this technique originates from the action of your two thumbs (prongs) thrusting into your opponent's groin on the first move. Thus this technique was named Thrusting Prongs.

2. THEME: The theme of this technique lies in the initial approach of countering the attack. It introduces the idea of approaching an opponent's frontal targets from an Obscure Zone. The obscure delivery is such that your opponent is oblivious to the impending strikes.

3. THE ATTACK: The IDEAL PHASE of this technique commences from the front. Your opponent is applying a bear hug with your arms pinned. Study these additional WHAT IF factors:

a. Your opponent is taller than you.
b. Your opponent is shorter than you.
c. Your opponent applies unbearable pressure.
d. Your opponent lifts you off the ground.
e. Your opponent attempts to throw you to the
ground.

4. Be sure to employ a Bracing Angle by means of
a forward bow on your first move.

5. Due to the tightness of the bear hug, you more
than likely will be forced to modify the depth
of your stance.

6. This technique teaches you the value of Minor
Moves.

7. Analyze the value and response obtained when
employing the Pin Point Effect.

8. Analyze the reasons why you are stepping
forward during your last moves.

9. Build spontaneity by having your opponent vary
his attacks: bear hug with your arms free or
bear hugs with your arms pinned. Respond with
sequences from either Striking Serpent's Head
or Thrusting Prongs. Practicing in this manner
will internalize the ability to respond to
vailable targets with available weapons.

:asian:

 

[jfarnsworth]

Good post, Sir!:asian:

 

[GaryM]

I think the problem that some of the posters have with this tech is seeing the reality of the attack. It is not uncommon for a strong opponent to use this attack. By pinning your arms and burying his head into your chest and squeezing your hips tightly against his he effectivly nullifys your defenses. You can't head butt , use your hands to attack his head, or knee to the groin. By using the 'prongs' to create a little space you are able to bring the knee into play. If you doubt the effectivness of the prongs, hold someone in the position described and try to maintain hip contact as they thrust the prongs. It doesn't have to be a strike, just a push digging in the thumbs. If you can keep them from creating enough space to use thier knee then we're all wrong. (that only takes about 1.5 inches by the way) If the attacker lifts you off the ground, so what. The knee will effectivly stop that. The attacker pushing you to the ground backwards isn't really the attack, that's more of a front tackle and the attacker has to have different hip placement to push you backwards. In this attack the opponent is either trying to hurt your back and/or pick you up (then he can take you down). It is a relatively slow developing attack so you are likely to have time to effect the counter before things get out of hand. Or not.

 

[MisterMike]

You mean to tell me that it is not realistic to think that someone "might possibly" grab you in a front bearhug (arms free or pinned)? C'mon, you are just testing us with that question aren't you.....

Well, I may be just testing what I already know. Good post though, and very thorough. :asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by GaryM
I think the problem that some of the posters have with this tech is seeing the reality of the attack.

If what you say is true, then I feel that the we should look at how instruction on the "attack" be understood a little more, then show a "possible" maneuver. How can you just learn a series of moves without understanding exactly what it is for?

I feel however, that the most important issue is, no matter who is right or wrong.... by its meer existance in any form....... "JUST LOOK" at what we are doing......... [[[[[examining and studying it]]]]]!!!!!!!!

Now, that is really good to see, discuss, share, examine, explore different points of view, different possibilities, different combinations, different problems that we may not have thought of, and so on, with respect to others points of view!

My only concern is that we get on the same page and study one specific scenairo at a time, if one persons "attack" is slightly different from anothers, then the results and series may "have" to be different.

 

[Michael Billings]

I sure looks like a technique that works to me! Of course, I have made it work, as written, not only does the knee assisting them in putting you back down, but contingent on where and the angle of incidence of the thumb, that may be sufficient to ensure you are not picked up.

GREAT POST.

-Michael

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Try thinking of the foot stepping back as a very small step, just to give a little clearance, but primarily to rebound off the floor into the knee. Try less of a "settle" into the shallow forward bow, but a bounce off the floor. The timing of the suppressing check (crane) and knee should then occur almost simultaneously.

Note: there is a principle called stabilized assistance, which means that when you utilize the suppressing check, you are loading some of your weight on him and assisting your own balance. It also ensures the target is less likely to be moved, and you are less likely to get a knee to the groin since you do "straddle the paddle" in this technique.

I have seen it other ways, but this is the one I choose to teach.

-Michael

Edited to clarify (and correct a word)

This a very interesting technique that contains a great deal of effective mechanisms. I got to get to Texas to share some stuff. I would post it but it's a "secret" wink wink nod nod. :rofl:

OK, it's not a secret but it is very difficult to convey "grappling mechanics" (vertical or otherwise) in a forum.

This technique, and others similar to it, is about what you do immediately when grabbed to misalign your attacker first before attempting a counter.

 

[GaryM]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
[

My only concern is that we get on the same page and study one specific scenairo at a time, if one persons "attack" is slightly different from anothers, then the results and series may "have" to be different. [/B]

That is an incredible idea (what gd7 said). Maybe the attacks could be described in the same detail as the techs? If you don't fully understand what the attack is, how can you really understand the technique?
There could also be suggestions for variations of the basic attack. This would more than double the written material so I realize it's no small task.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by GaryM
That is an incredible idea (what gd7 said). Maybe the attacks could be described in the same detail as the techs? If you don't fully understand what the attack is, how can you really understand the technique?
There could also be suggestions for variations of the basic attack. This would more than double the written material so I realize it's no small task.

Doesn't everyone do that already? It is impossible to define a response to a non-specific assault. Dennis and I have been saying that for years.

 

[Shiatsu]

Doc you know you are welcome in Texas anytime.