Thrusting Prongs

[rmcrobertson]

Look, I certainly don't claim to know everything about kenpo---but for one thing, my point was that when you first learn the technique you do NOT need that much technical verbiage. And to be honest about what I think of verbiage--"zero degree of lethality?" I don't mean to be rude, but if somebody who studied as much literary theory as I did kvetches about verbiage...

On another point, my point was that the thumbs and the knee don't strike the same target, with the same weapon, at the same angle.

 

[Michael Billings]

... rolling the thumbs in and down into the bladder, pubic bone area, then "thrusting", often the thrust is unnecessary as your opponent "plants" you back on the ground, (if he has achieved any lift at all?) Your knee is striking from a different Angle of Entry with a different Angle of Incidence ... in other words, we are not striking the same target twice.

Thoughts? Give it a try ... it really works if someone has jammed you up tight against their body as the push you into the shortened forward bow stance, or if not pushing, allows the forward bow to rebound from the floor.

-Michael

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Look, I certainly don't claim to know everything about kenpo---but for one thing, my point was that when you first learn the technique you do NOT need that much technical verbiage. And to be honest about what I think of verbiage--"zero degree of lethality?" I don't mean to be rude, but if somebody who studied as much literary theory as I did kvetches about verbiage...

On another point, my point was that the thumbs and the knee don't strike the same target, with the same weapon, at the same angle.

I already gave you book and page # on "my" concept of pin point effect. It's an orange belt requirement. You really need to learn the basics before questioning material that is above your head. x=-2x+y if you didn't know x had a value of 1 (rule of thumb) someone might not come up with the correct value. What I am trying to say is because you have an education (BLACK BELT) you have the basics. There are other rules you have to have as well to solve the equation but you get the idea.

Kenpo has the same learning scheme as any other field. It is all about how much you need and want. Ed Parker had terms like engineer of motion. What do engineers do? How far do they go? How far can they go? Does everybody want to go to mars? No, but some want to see what is there.

The Tracy system gives you the solutions. They have a lot of teks and you pretty much have a conditioned response for... I don't know, say, anything in the world that could come at you. AK gives you only 154. 600 vs. 154. Do you see the reason for the jargon being the heart of the art now? If you teach Ak like Tracy, AK is not going to work as well with only 154. It has to be a given that a person physically trains otherwise there is nothing to base anything off of. The principles work when you move, you can feel them. They are not what the art is based off of but they can be manipulated to enhance power etc. Concepts are largely for each groups inner circle because that is where the art becomes deadly and easily so at some point or another.

This is basically how I see and use the art. Teaching is another thread in and of itself let alone which tek is being taught and how it is to be done.

 

[rmcrobertson]

The point of theoretical language is to make understanding easier, to provide a kind of symbolic shorthand, not to pile up words. It is also not to legitimate bullying.

It's pretty weird, to me, (who spent around seven-eight years in grad school studying literary and cultural theory) to get jumped with hating theory, or not seeing its purpose. Huh.

You simply disagree with a lot of what I've been taught, and a lot of what I presently think about kenpo. That's fine; not a problem, and I'd be interested to see the differences explained--especially since to say that I have a lot to learn is a hilarious understatement. Why not just say that you don't see it the way I do, and explain your own training and ideas, rather than telling me that a wading pool is, "over my head?"

Must not be my day on MT; a sensible person would go finish the dishes, not be writing this.

 

[Michael Billings]

Originally posted by Rainman
The Tracy system gives you the solutions. They have a lot of teks and you pretty much have a conditioned response for... I don't know, say, anything in the world that could come at you. AK gives you only 154. 600 vs. 154. Do you see the reason for the jargon being the heart of the art now? If you teach Ak like Tracy, AK is not going to work as well with only 154. It has to be a given that a person physically trains otherwise there is nothing to base anything off of. The principles work when you move, you can feel them. They are not what the art is based off of but they can be manipulated to enhance power etc. Concepts are largely for each groups inner circle because that is where the art becomes deadly and easily so at some point or another.

Very interesting observation. Having come from a Tracy background 1979-1985 or so, I had not made this connection.

We are clearly off topic now, and I have to redirect, but find this a very interesting interpretation of the difference between the learning paradigms, definitly worth starting a new thread in the Kenpo General Forum if you are so inclined.

Respectfully,
-Michael

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Very interesting observation. Having come from a Tracy background 1979-1985 or so, I had not made this connection.

We are clearly off topic now, and I have to redirect, but find this a very interesting interpretation of the difference between the learning paradigms, definitly worth starting a new thread in the Kenpo General Forum if you are so inclined.

Respectfully,
-Michael

Trust me we are not off topic- This is actually going to come around to the thrust in Thrusting Prongs. There is a problem in Roberts targeting. He will just think I am picking on him if I don't aquiant him with some advanced material or what is and how it can be used.

So here is another part. What I am saying is not contrary to what you have been taught it is higher up the food chain. When my teacher first started coming off with the basics of advanced material I thought he was wacked. I remember I used to snap at him because he just kept pounding me with it... Then one day it started to manifest itself. And it becomes like a snowball rolling down an endless hill. I am lucky no doubt about it, I also have another... Teacher of my teachers teacher. He could just give me a word, a bam, a pam... You got it, slap cks are the ==it.
They have to be done just so, other wise they could just be a hinderance.

Here comes the simple part. Thrusting is for power. Agree or disagree?

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Higher up the food chain." Good one; most illuminating.

Well, well, my, my. I guess I'll just have to keep limping along with my own weak wits and my own inadequate teachers. Of course, it HAS been my general experience that this sort of thing never accompanies real knowledge, but there's always a first time.

 

[MJS]

Well, you know, considering that we all come from different teachers, I'm sure that there is going to be some difference in what is taught. Rather than listen to what others have to say, it seems to me like some people are too pre-occupied with thinking that someone is saying something negative about them or their teacher.

Mike

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
"Higher up the food chain." Good one; most illuminating.

Well, well, my, my. I guess I'll just have to keep limping along with my own weak wits and my own inadequate teachers. Of course, it HAS been my general experience that this sort of thing never accompanies real knowledge, but there's always a first time.

Stay on Point.

Thrusting is for power- Agree or disagree.

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Rainman
Stay on Point.

Thrusting is for power- Agree or disagree.

I'll join in this discussion. I think it is situational, sometimes a thrust is for power, sometimes it is for gaining more distance, and on some occasions, it's bait....

 

[kenpo12]

Thrusting is for power- Agree or disagree.

Disagree.

Now, why am I wrong or right?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Binary oppositions: emblematic of thinking in the register of the Imaginary. While accurate, such articulation of questions tends to the incomplete. We may also discern a certain reinforcement of the ideal-I in the somewhat-forcedly gnomic discursivity placed on display; as in all such formulations, the "knotted," character of the logic operates as a legible concealment (one almost might say, a cocooning) of the subject's retrospectively reconstructing its originary recoiling in the presence of the objet petit a.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Binary oppositions: emblematic of thinking in the register of the Imaginary. While accurate, such articulation of questions tends to the incomplete. We may also discern a certain reinforcement of the ideal-I in the somewhat-forcedly gnomic discursivity placed on display; as in all such formulations, the "knotted," character of the logic operates as a legible concealment (one almost might say, a cocooning) of the subject's retrospectively reconstructing its originary recoiling in the presence of the objet petit a.

I look forward to the response. Your point is well made. A+

"Mama, Robert won't play fair!":rofl:

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Seig
I'll join in this discussion. I think it is situational, sometimes a thrust is for power, sometimes it is for gaining more distance, and on some occasions, it's bait....

Not only is it situational it depends on what concepts you choose to highlight and what you are thrusting with. That being said what is the objective for the Thrusting Prongs? Are the prongs thrusting or being thrusted by the unfolding of the elbows? Where is the power really coming from and finally what does the forward bow have to do with any of this?

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Rainman
Are the prongs thrusting or being thrusted by the unfolding of the elbows?

Excellent question.

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Rainman
Are the prongs thrusting or being thrusted by the unfolding of the elbows? Where is the power really coming from and finally what does the forward bow have to do with any of this?

If I am understanding your question properly, here is my answer.
I do not feel the thumbs themselves will generate sufficient power of and by themselves, therefore they would have to be powered by another force, in this situation, the elbows (with a judiscious application of proper torque). The forward bow is being used to created not only a bracing angle but to use your upper body as a check against your opponent.

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Seig
If I am understanding your question properly, here is my answer.
I do not feel the thumbs themselves will generate sufficient power of and by themselves, therefore they would have to be powered by another force, in this situation, the elbows (with a judiscious application of proper torque). The forward bow is being used to created not only a bracing angle but to use your upper body as a check against your opponent.

Depends on the target. In this case though the power generator is the stance change to the forward bow. Since we are combining a thrust and a forward bow we are in a committed and dynamic power stroke. So the thumbs are the tool of penetraition and not so much the weapon but the contact point of the weapon. Which target do you strike with so much power and why.

 

[Seig]

That is going to depend on several factors. In the base technique, Mr. C has us strike the groin. There are other viable targets also. I have a long torso and short arms, therefore, I prefer to strike the bladder or just above the pubic mound.

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Seig
That is going to depend on several factors. In the base technique, Mr. C has us strike the groin. There are other viable targets also. I have a long torso and short arms, therefore, I prefer to strike the bladder or just above the pubic mound.

Okay. Method of execution for a thrust is linear meaning the natural weapon travels in a straight line. Path is vertical, horizontal, or diagonal. Roundhousing is the weapon traveling on an arc and hitting befor the apex or at the apex. So when you change targets take into consideration that the method of execution has not been changed. If the method has been altered due to body mismatches it is no longer thrusting prongs.

Some people are very thick around their mid section and you can't get to the groin or the bladder, but guess where mass doesn't usually accumilate? Where the femur meets the pelvis on either side of the bladder. It is structurally weak when not thrust forward. When thrust forward (as you know because of your grappling experience) it is the most powerful action you body has. This is a constant. The groin is a pain compliant strike and not everyone reacts the same to pain.

When you do thrust into the bladder or the groin what is the body reaction you get?

 

[kenpoangel]

Yes the target at our school is the bladder, although I would imagine that depending on the height of the attacker, I agree that would change.

The power I thought of this technique comes from the forward motion and the borrowed force of the attacker. Stepping back in the forward bow gives you the bracing angle needed to stop him from mowing you down. Keeping the elbows anchored aides in this stability and once those thumbs are thrusted into the bladder, it's not going to be pleasant for the attacker if he's storming down on you the way I suspect he will be for this technique.

Anyway, good discussion thus far,

Angela